Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part IV: ADwD

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

OK so I was able to retrieve my post.

Thanks for the great analysis BearQueen87

This chapter once again showed the complexity of some of the Essosi characters like Xaro.

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While Dany had noble and good intentions in taking Slaver’s Bay, some of the effects of that conquest have not been good. Astapor is a mess; the Yunkai’i have bought new sellswords, and Xaro informs the Queen that Tolos and Mantarys have formed an alliance against her. At this point, it might be better for Dany and those serving her to cut their losses and run. If Westeros is Dany’s true desire, as it has been since before she decided to stay and rule Meereen, then this “knot” is only keeping her from her destiny.

The idea of going home is a very powerful allure for Dany. Her entire mood changes to one of joy and hope:

YEa I also noticed this in the chapter, in the previous ones she even felt it was a chore to go for court but in this one, after she hears of home she is ready to hear petitions again

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This seems to be a reoccurring theme with Dany: no one is giving her all the advice. Even if she still rejected Xaro, no one in her presence brings up what might happen with Qarth if they reject the offer. “Dany would not lack for council” but she does not have the right sort of council. This brings up something we’ve said repeatedly: Dany needs a Hand and a Maester.

I agree, after this chapter I saw how "Tragic" Dany's councillors in Meereen are, its full of mostly people in the military, there is really no voice of reason. I read some of the council meetings in King's Landing to compare and you can see a big difference in the way her councilors think.

QuoteOne of Dany’s biggest arcs in Dance is her attempt to reconcile different parts of herself: is she a dragon or a harpy? She cannot be both, though she is trying. Along with this is Dany’s notion that she cannot be Queen and a woman both. In order to be Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, The Unburnt, Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains, ect she cannot be Dany, the woman who dreams of a house with the red door where she is safe and warm and loved.

Yes, And I think this is an example of Dany's view of the world in a black and white way. Just like in the last chapter she believes it is impossible to be a dragon and a mother at the same time. I believe it is essential that learns how to embrace all facets of her life and use them at the right times.

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5. Xaro gives Dany a very large map of Planetos before the Doom. Will it be useful down the line?

I've always taken that map to be a "Chekov's gun" and will probably be what she uses to get out of Slaver's Bay, It could also mean there will be a possibility she will visit the haunted islands of Valyria.

MoIaF, on 20 Jul 2014 - 6:02 PM, said:

"Dany had never known a home. In Braavos, there had been a house with a red door, but that was all."

I find this quote very interesting because although Dany enjoyed her time in the Dothraki Sea with Drogo (and it was described by her one of the happiest times in her life) she still doesn't consider that home. Home to her is the fantasy, the dream of the House with the Red Door.

Yea I agree, I find the idea of Dany's home more of where she will feel safe and happy rather than an actual location.

Parwan, on 20 Jul 2014 - 8:02 PM, said:

2. We see other reasons for Dany's problems: As I said earlier, she failed to take control of the situation in Meereen. And she shows a disappointing lack of ability in negotiations. This isn't a unique problem with the dragon queen. In Westeros, negotiations are usually a matter of making demands, or pulling tricks, or telling the other side, "Do what we want, or we will kill your father"...or other such stuff. Dany should be able to do better. Back in Qarth, she wanted 1/3 of all the ships in the world in exchange for one dragon. For some reason or other, she lost all of the relevant bargaining skill in Meereen. One thing to do here would be to make a counter offer. Thirteen ships aren't enough? Ask for three hundred. Xaro could do the usual Qartheen thing:

"Three hundred ships?? Oh wah, oh boo hoo, my friend has gone crazy. Pah, pah I say!"

Then the two sides could get down to hammering out a deal. I don't say that this would have worked, but it should have been tried.

2) That's a good point, she did a good negotiation job in Qarth compared to this conversation. I think it has something to do with the whole Queen vs Khaleesi motif. In this conversation she is trying hard to be a Queen by trying to use things such as her dress and bare breast to try and convince him (Almost like a Beggar Queen) but in Qarth dressed as Khal after the events of the Undying she is more demanding and makes a counter offer. Whiles this doesn't explain fully why she negotiated better in Qarth then in Meereen, I think it shows Dany as more of a Khaleesi/leader than a Queen in court.

Also great catch with the Ned parallel.

Some other things I noticed in this chapter:

On dragons, blood and fire:

One of the interesting things I noticed from this chapter, is that during Dany's conversation with Xaro, he asks her several questions of the problems she faces in Meereen and she counters him with different answers, her possession of dragons is the last thing she mentions which is telling of how she views the dragons now, more of a last resort. But deep down she knows her dragons are her greatest asset and have been the most useful of all the things she has.

I feared she was sailing to her doom, yet now I find her here enthroned, mistress of an ancient city, surrounded by a mighty host that she raised up out of dreams.” No, she thought, out of blood and fire.

“If a warlock’s spell could kill me, I would be dead by now. I left their palace all in ashes.” Drogon saved me when they would have drained my life from me. Drogon burned them all.

The red parts are Dany's thoughts and it shows her conflict in chapter, as SeanF said, this chapter shows how dangerous her situation is becoming and because of that she has started reflecting on what has saved her in dangerous situations or helped her in times of need and the answer in the past has always been her dragons but however she is afraid of going near them and even the thought of them makes her shiver so she's in major conflict.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

whatever, it was deleted

[BearQueen87]

I know that the custom is that we complement the analysis at hand, but this was, unfortunately, plainly bad. I am sorry, Suzanna, but there are too many mischaracterizations regarding Quentyn, Doran and even Dany that I would be lying if I would say I find this remotely toleranle analysis.

So, what went wrong here?

1. Quentyn undoubtedly is someone extremely self-aware guy. He is not a good-looking guy, plainly ordinary, he doesn't have a lot of confidence. Quentyn is just a good-hearted guy who is being realistic about marriage that is supposed to happen. If he lacks courage, then I suppose everybodu does. Quentyn goes to extremes which shows a lot of spirit even though he is full of self-doubt. Furthermore, I don't see what it makes Dany/Quentyn such laughable idea, especially at this point. Between him and Daario, I would argue that Quentyn is the man who would or could have provided Dany what she wants - family. I have to enjoy the fact that Dany isn't Sansa, otherwise we would have entire line of posts in which she values looks the most, which apparently from this analysis Dany does. Not to say that Dany doesn't value the looks, nor the fact that Quentyn isn't wrong in his doubts, it's just about giving Dany more credit.

I don't think Quentyn/Dany are a bad idea (not my favorite idea but not bad) but rather Quentyn can't give Dany a solution to her "here and now" problem which is Meereen. Daario fills the lonliness and lets her be a young girl, Hizdahr is totally political and helps her Meereen problem. Quentyn is like the 13 ships from Xaro. And enticing offer but in the end it doesn't bring what she wants: stability in Meereen and overall, it's not going to secure Westeros unless Dorne can bring more than just Dorne.

2. Doran Martell is idiot? One has to laugh at this. Doran is someone who is carefully constructing the plans. The fact he couldn't have controlled Viserys getting killed doesn't mean he is incompetent. Same thing here. Doran's plan is problematic, yes, but he does understand the danger. I simply can't believe that caution is here mistaken for stupidity. The need for Quentyn to go to Dany is quite reasonable, let we remember that Young Griff was also travelling towards Dany with small company. When you are making secret plans, you try to narrow the circle as possible. So, IMO, calling Doran idiotic is plainly mischaracterization.

Doran apparently doesn't know his children, though. Quentyn is full of self doubt and putting Quentyn in front of Dany with a deal that she didn't make and just Dorne and a guy that Dany won't take to isn't the best laid plan. Maybe idiotic is a bad word. Maybe uninformed is better. He doesn't know his son and he doesn't understand Dany but he expects that the plan will succeed but it's grounded in nothing but misunderstandings of the players.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

From the rules of the OP, Let's try and stay on topic without attacking each other. Everyone is open to disagree with someone's argument, but try and do so without attacking the person.

[BearQueen87]

OK so I was able to retrieve my post.

Thanks for the great analysis BearQueen87

This chapter once again showed the complexity of some of the Essosi characters like Xaro.

I've always taken that map to be a "Chekov's gun" and will probably be what she uses to get out of Slaver's Bay, It could also mean there will be a possibility she will visit the haunted islands of Valyria.

Thanks!

And yes, I hope she goes to Valyria. It could be the REAL Dragon horn (the one Vic thinks he has) is actually there (suspicious dragon horn is suspicious but I guess we'll get there)

[HexMachina]

I don't think Quentyn/Dany are a bad idea (not my favorite idea but not bad) but rather Quentyn can't give Dany a solution to her "here and now" problem which is Meereen. Daario fills the lonliness and lets her be a young girl, Hizdahr is totally political and helps her Meereen problem. Quentyn is like the 13 ships from Xaro. And enticing offer but in the end it doesn't bring what she wants: stability in Meereen and overall, it's not going to secure Westeros unless Dorne can bring more than just Dorne.

I agree that Quentyn doesn't resolve Dany's current problems with Meereen, and that is one reason she wouldn't want him (nice comparison between the 13 ships btw :thumbsup: )I don't actually think Dany and Quentyn would work though. As a political match in Westeros, yes, but he certainly isn't what Dany "wants". Barristan says it best with his "she wants fire, but Dorne sent her mud". They would be a good political match in Westeros, and maybe had she been there it would have happened. But in Meereen, no.

Doran apparently doesn't know his children, though. Quentyn is full of self doubt and putting Quentyn in front of Dany with a deal that she didn't make and just Dorne and a guy that Dany won't take to isn't the best laid plan. Maybe idiotic is a bad word. Maybe uninformed is better. He doesn't know his son and he doesn't understand Dany but he expects that the plan will succeed but it's grounded in nothing but misunderstandings of the players.

I agree. I didn't have the books with me before, but he certainly doesn't seem to have spent much time with Doran. He was sent to Lord Yronwood at a "young age" to serve as a page and squire (so I would estimate before the age of 8) and even preferred to be knighted by Lord Yronwood than his uncle Oberyn. I think that is quite telling, in that he feels closer kinship to the Yronwoods than his own family. This is why Doran misunderstands him imo

[Mladen]

I don't think Quentyn/Dany are a bad idea (not my favorite idea but not bad) but rather Quentyn can't give Dany a solution to her "here and now" problem which is Meereen. Daario fills the lonliness and lets her be a young girl, Hizdahr is totally political and helps her Meereen problem. Quentyn is like the 13 ships from Xaro. And enticing offer but in the end it doesn't bring what she wants: stability in Meereen and overall, it's not going to secure Westeros unless Dorne can bring more than just Dorne.

But we should always remember that from outside perspective, Dany's goal is Westeros. And he brings her at least some support from Westeros. Yes, Dorne is not what would bring victory for Dany, but it's a start. Especially since she is coming with the army of slaves and sellswords. So, as much as Hiz helps Dany solve the current issue, Quentyn, as well as Aegon, came from different perspective. So, the idea that this union is laughable or idiotic from the perspective of Dorne simply doesn't stand.

Doran apparently doesn't know his children, though. Quentyn is full of self doubt and putting Quentyn in front of Dany with a deal that she didn't make and just Dorne and a guy that Dany won't take to isn't the best laid plan. Maybe idiotic is a bad word. Maybe uninformed is better. He doesn't know his son and he doesn't understand Dany but he expects that the plan will succeed but it's grounded in nothing but misunderstandings of the players.

But that is how these things were happening. The arranged marriages were about some perceived compatibility between bride and groom. And this isn't the worst match out there. He sends his young son, who yeah, looks plain, but is also Prince of Dorne, which is among the highest titles in Westeros. If Viserys/Arianne match was arranged, then what was the logical assumption this wouldn't? Yeah, Doran didn't made psychological profiles of both Dany and Quentyn, but he didn't have to. These marriages were done for benefit.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I agree that Quentyn doesn't resolve Dany's current problems with Meereen, and that is one reason she wouldn't want him (nice comparison between the 13 ships btw :thumbsup: )I don't actually think Dany and Quentyn would work though. As a political match in Westeros, yes, but he certainly isn't what Dany "wants". Barristan says it best with his "she wants fire, but Dorne sent her mud". They would be a good political match in Westeros, and maybe had she been there it would have happened. But in Meereen, no.

I agree. I didn't have the books with me before, but he certainly doesn't seem to have spent much time with Doran. He was sent to Lord Yronwood at a "young age" to serve as a page and squire (so I would estimate before the age of 8) and even preferred to be knighted by Lord Yronwood than his uncle Oberyn. I think that is quite telling, in that he feels closer kinship to the Yronwoods than his own family. This is why Doran misunderstands him imo

Yes I agree that Quentyn and Dany are a good idea in theory. IMo Quentyn just does not have the right stuff for the job. GRRm clearly knew that and wrote him that way on purpose. With the opening line, the ironic/sarcastic chapter titles. This guy has failure written all over him right from the beginning. You guys see what I mean right? About the chapter titles? they are all ironic on purpose, Quentyns entire mission was just a big joke to GRRM.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Many often say this, so I'll ask.

What would have happened if Doran had sent Oberyn instead?

[BearQueen87]

But that is how these things were happening. The arranged marriages were about some perceived compatibility between bride and groom. And this isn't the worst match out there. He sends his young son, who yeah, looks plain, but is also Prince of Dorne, which is among the highest titles in Westeros. If Viserys/Arianne match was arranged, then what was the logical assumption this wouldn't? Yeah, Doran didn't made psychological profiles of both Dany and Quentyn, but he didn't have to. These marriages were done for benefit.

Yes that is how it worked, but I think Doran doesn't fully understanding Dany or his own son. In your next Tyrion chapter there is a fantastic speech Tyrion gives to fAegon about who Dany is and why she won't welcome fAegon with open arms. And this is from someone who hasn't had any dealing with Dany or Viserys at all. It's about understanding the Queen in Meereen, which Doran obviously does not. I think he should have sent Arianne, firey spit fire who could challenge Dany and not be so scared.

And with Quentyn, Doran seems to think that that Quentyn can succeed based on "I will bring her Dorne" alone but Quentyn doesn't seem to have a lot of stake in Dorne and isn't imposing enough to convince Dany of Dorne's power either. It's like Helena just said...Doran thinks of Quentyn as being able to represent House Martell but in reality Quentyn is much more Yronwood.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Many often say this, so I'll ask.

What would have happened if Doran had sent Oberyn instead?

Lol that would have been awesome!!!

[MoIaF]

Many often say this, so I'll ask.

What would have happened if Doran had sent Oberyn instead?

The Meereen Knot would have been the best part of ADWD. :P

[HexMachina]

Many often say this, so I'll ask.

What would have happened if Doran had sent Oberyn instead?

She'd have asked why the hell Doran was sending her a pile of bones :p

:leaving:

[BearQueen87]

Many often say this, so I'll ask.

What would have happened if Doran had sent Oberyn instead?

It's a good question.

Even though I'm saying that Arianne would have been a better candidate to make Dany LISTEN, I still think Arianne would have failed.

Quentyn isn't forceful enough but even Oberyn and Arianne would have a hard time convincing Dany to leave Meereen when she knows that her people will just be put back into chains. Unless the Martells (any of them) can help her secure the everlasting freedom of the Meereeneese once Dany leaves, then every one of them is going to fail.

Quentyn is just set for failure based on his own personality.

Arianne and Oberyn might have had a better time because they can go toe to toe with Dany, but still ultimately fail because Meereen's people matter to Dany.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Oberyn knew more Essos, though. He served there for few years. He could have helped or being more helpful than Barristan and even Jorah about that.

But yes, either Oberyn, Quentyn, Arianne or Doran himself, Dany's main problem was Slaver's Bay, and indeed, Quentyn (and Dorne) got there too late, not because she was going to marry but because Dany's first motivation to take Astapor and the Unsullied was to get an army to retake the Throne.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Quentyn is just set for failure based on his own personality.

Arianne and Oberyn might have had a better time because they can go toe to toe with Dany, but still ultimately fail because Meereen's people matter to Dany.

yes exactly! This is something VERY obviously written out. Quentyn does not have any of the right stuff going for him to be successful in winning Dany or taming the dragons (both are sort of the same feat I guess, lol)

that's why I quoted so many of his self-doubt thoughts, he is always so unsure. Adventure Stank! what could be stronger foreshadowing than that?

[BearQueen87]

Oberyn knew more Essos, though. He served there for few years. He could have helped or being more helpful than Barristan and even Jorah about that.

But yes, either Oberyn, Quentyn, Arianne or Doran himself, Dany's main problem was Slaver's Bay, and indeed, Quentyn (and Dorne) got there too late, not because she was going to marry but because Dany's first motivation to take Astapor and the Unsullied was to get an army to retake the Throne.

I'm not sure what Oberyn could have done to help. Dany's problem isn't exactly political. Oberyn can't convince the Slaver's to give up their desire to return to the Old Way where they were Masters. He could have helped with strategic plans, I suppose. Ways to counter the Sons. But, at his heart, Oberyn is just another warrior, like Selmy.

[Mladen]

What would have happened if Doran had sent Oberyn instead?

The Meereen Knot would have been the best part of ADWD. :P

LOL... I raise your ADWD, MOIAF and say it would be best part of ASOIAF :). Oberyn, Ellaria and Dany... One can dream...

Yes that is how it worked, but I think Doran doesn't fully understanding Dany or his own son. In your next Tyrion chapter there is a fantastic speech Tyrion gives to fAegon about who Dany is and why she won't welcome fAegon with open arms. And this is from someone who hasn't had any dealing with Dany or Viserys at all. It's about understanding the Queen in Meereen, which Doran obviously does not. I think he should have sent Arianne, firey spit fire who could challenge Dany and not be so scared.

And with Quentyn, Doran seems to think that that Quentyn can succeed based on "I will bring her Dorne" alone but Quentyn doesn't seem to have a lot of stake in Dorne and isn't imposing enough to convince Dany of Dorne's power either. It's like Helena just said...Doran thinks of Quentyn as being able to represent House Martell but in reality Quentyn is much more Yronwood.

Helena is right about Quentyn, but I simply have to say that Doran's plans regarding this does seem rather logical. But, just like with Catelyn's plans, Doran is constantly faced with unpredictable circumstances. It is quite the logical leap to assume that Dany will be dealing with Meereen. I assume that he could have predicted that Quentyn won't be appealing for Dany, but as I said, in politics of Westeros, these things are not taken into consideration. It seems that Tyrion is the only one who takes Dany's preferences into account.

[BearQueen87]

yes exactly! This is something VERY obviously written out. Quentyn does not have any of the right stuff going for him to be successful in winning Dany or taming the dragons (both are sort of the same feat I guess, lol)

that's why I quoted so many of his self-doubt thoughts, he is always so unsure. Adventure Stank! what could be stronger foreshadowing than that?

Not only does Adventure stink, but it smells of the worst things imaginable:

piss, rotting meat and nightsoil, corpse flesh and weeping sores and wounds gone bad..to the point where it overwhelms the fish and salt smell of a harbor.

This isn't your run of the mill bad smell--a lot of this is "death" type smells. There is no way this is going to end well for Quentyn.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Not only does Adventure stink, but it smells of the worst things imaginable:

piss, rotting meat and nightsoil, corpse flesh and weeping sores and wounds gone bad..to the point where it overwhelms the fish and salt smell of a harbor.

This isn't your run of the mill bad smell--a lot of this is "death" type smells. There is no way this is going to end well for Quentyn.

:cheers: exactly, the foreshadowing in this first chapter goes on and on. Glad you get it :)