Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part IV: ADwD

[Mladen]

Mladen,

I don't doubt there are people who were made destitute in the Sack who are having to survive by performing manual labour. I think Xaro's charge hits home, because Dany feels responsible for the economic mess that Meereen is in. I don't take it as evidence that Dany has been caught out as a hypocrite, keeping some of the population as public slaves, while claiming to be an abolitionist.

Neither do I and I think I was very clear about that. I don't believe that she is a hypocrite. She is with her heart and soul in ending the slavery. If there is an argument where Dany may sound hypocritical it is when she spoke how Xaro's slaves were treated fine, but her thoughts clearly suggests that she thinks she couldn't have done anything at that moment.

[MoIaF]

And now I move to Daenerys III and analysis BearQueen has written... Nice job, BQ

But I have something to say before I move to the chapter. It came to my attention that analyzers sometimes omit some pieces of the chapter that may put Dany in a bad light. The Mysterious One forgot the Usurper's dogs in Dany II, and we have Xaro's friend missing from analysis of Dany III. This thread, which simply is created by the people with positive view on Dany, has the right to focus on the positive, but I am afraid it is a bit counter-productive. Especially, as I have said before, that this thread has brain trust capable of dealing with such arguments. But, if these occurrences are actually a pattern, then I imagine it is a problem that needs to be solved. To put Daenerys in a more positive light, there is no need to close an eye to these things (especially since in ADWD, there are too many things we will have to close the eyes to) but deal with them with arguments and text proofs. Even in this case, I have read some rather great and far superior arguments that would benefit Daenerys' image, and put an end to "she is enforcing slavery again" stories. So, in conclusion, I am afraid that these omissions, if intentional, are doing disservice to this thread, because one can interpret it as someone's inability to deal with those issues. A view I wholeheartedly believe is wrong. Now, back to the chapter.

We are not purposely omitting anything that puts Dany in a negative light, we've discuss at length plenty of Dany's shortcomings. If you look at the previous threads we've gone to great lengths to discuss the actions of Dany in regards to MMD, Astapor, Ynkai and you've been here for most of the Meereen discussion.

We might not use some of the same arguments in the General Forum but we have openly discuss them, even if we agree or disagree.

[PatrickStormborn]

Patrick, that is why I raised my suspicion in the questioning, not accusatory mode. I simply noticed something that might be problematic and wanted to see whether it is just coincidence or intentional. In my opinion, as someone who has quite the background with Sansa threads, I know how people can be tired of arguing exactly the same thing. And I know what things have been covered and which weren't. I just wanted to make sure that there is no foul play and that this is just a coincidence... Better to do it like this, then to have people discuss what this thread omitted in blindside attacks over the board.

I hope my post didn't make it seem like I thought you were being accusatory! I think it was definitely worth mentioning and I'm glad you did. :) But, as someone who has been having the same arguments for the last 3 years, I can see why some of us may not necessarily want to re-hash familiar topics.

[Mladen]

I hope my post didn't make it seem like I thought you were being accusatory! I think it was definitely worth mentioning and I'm glad you did. :) But, as someone who has been having the same arguments for the last 3 years, I can see why some of us may not necessarily want to re-hash familiar topics.

I know exactly how deep this thread has covered some issues. Before I have started posting here, I have read entire series of threads to see how are the things around here. I just wanted to mention something ON this thread that someone else would bring out somwhere where you wouldn't see or would come late for response.

Now back to the chapter. I have written nice post and I won't allow first paragraph to take the spotlight :)

[MoIaF]

Regarding Xaro... I generally don't see him as "crying baby" as someone argued here and he is far from being a "baby". His tears, his voice, all of that is part of the game he plays, somewhat it can be compared to Varys, but Varys is more successful. Xaro's voice is the voice of hypocrisy, malice and even gross underestimation of the person he speaks to, Daenerys in this case. He is far from helpless, sad, emotional creature he wants to present himself and below those layers, there is a dangerous mind with ability to twist and twirl to get what he wants. I agree with MOIAF that he is such disgusting character, but there is a sense that everyone in Essos for some reason are like that.

The gift Xaro offered to Daenerys is nothing and it is even idiotic to think she would actually agree on that. But, the gift does bring some sort of good PR for Xaro and Qarth. Look at it this way. They came to Daenerys, this Valyrian princess who wants to conquer Westeros and who has no ties to Slaver's Bay and offered her the peace in form of the ships, safe passage etc... Regardless of the fact that it isn't enough, Qarth can easily say to their allies that they offered something to Daenerys, that they offered her a way home, and that she chose war. Needless to say that the POV they would argue is more than wrong, but it also shows that the war is solely their own responsibility. Basically, they would push that Dany led SB into a war, but the fact is that they were preparing for it even before Xaro came.

I agree completely that Xaro's visit and his gift were a pretense for war. That is, war was probably always his intention but the gift was his way of trying to admonish himself from the responsibility of being the one to declare the war in the first place. Now, he can supposedly claim that it was Dany who force the hand of the Qartheen into war by refusing to leave and/or causing economical turmoil for Qarth.

This also shows that although Xaro really is a very intelligent man he still hasn't quite grasp the movement/revolution Dany has caused. He is operating under the assumption that things will go back to how they were if Dany is defeated (or even had left). And yes, slavery could very well have returned if Dany had left, but it would never be as it was once before.

His declaration of war to Dany is another matter entirely. Had Qarth stayed in the periphery they might have avoided war against Dany but now that Xaro has declared his war he has in fact condemned Qarth. I can't see a scenario where Dany will allow them to continue to have slaves no mater how well they are treated.

I think Xaro grossly underestimated how dangerous of an enemy Dany can be. (I'm referring to TWOW in regard to this).

[HexMachina]

I find Xaro to be one of the most interesting antagonists in Dany's arc. He is eloquent and much better educated than Dany, and he uses this "superiority" to confound her and make her appear in the wrong for trying to end slavery. We as readers know Dany holds the high ground in that slavery = wrong, but Dany is intellecrually out of her depth. Her arguments are driven by emotion, rather than using logic to counter Xaro's arguments. Thiscan be attributed to her upbringing and lack of a formal education. Her frustration with being.unable to counter Xaro leads to her counter productive ans disappointing omment of "Buy him then!"

She does have problems with the economy of Slavers Bay, true, but I'll address that in another post.

All in all, I find Xaro a fascinating if disgustinv antagonist. Unlikely as it may be, I hope to see him again before all is said and done

[MoIaF]

All in all, I find Xaro a fascinating if disgustinv antagonist. Unlikely as it may be, I hope to see him again before all is said and done

I am almost positive we will see him again in TWOW. Now Dany has unfinished business with him, before she leaves Essos she'll be settling her scores.

[Mladen]

His declaration of war to Dany is another matter entirely. Had Qarth stayed in the periphery they might have avoided war against Dany but now that Xaro has declared his war he has in fact condemned Qarth. I can't see a scenario where Dany will allow them to continue to have slaves no mater how well they are treated.

I think Xaro grossly underestimated how dangerous of an enemy Dany can be. (I'm referring to TWOW in regard to this).

I think that GRRM is tying all the Essosi cities in one of three stories he is having there - Aegon/Illyrio, Daenerys/Dothraki/SB and Arya/Braavos. So, I am of the opinion that Qarth which is now in war with Dany won't be left alone... There is little doubt to no doubt in me about the Qarth's future.

[BearQueen87]

I am almost positive we will see him again in TWOW. Now Dany has unfinished business with him, before she leaves Essos she'll be settling her scores.

If Dany's forces win the battle for Meereen, if they successfully crush the Yunkai'i, and the rebellion as a whole is finally put to rest, then I suspect Xaro will turn back on Dany's doorstep with some sort of peace offering. He's an opportunist--he goes where the wind blows. In Qarth he wanted a dragon, so he tried to seduce Dany. In Meereen, he knew the situation of the Sons and her own dragons being locked up, and felt that it was only a matter of time before she fell from power. If Dany's power is secured after the big battle then he'll be back with tears in his eyes asking for friendship.

[SeanF]

I agree completely that Xaro's visit and his gift were a pretense for war. That is, war was probably always his intention but the gift was his way of trying to admonish himself from the responsibility of being the one to declare the war in the first place. Now, he can supposedly claim that it was Dany who force the hand of the Qartheen into war by refusing to leave and/or causing economical turmoil for Qarth.

I think the offer was actually genuine. Note that the ships, though old, are seaworthy, and have crews. And, they're left behind when he goes.

I think he'd be perfectly happy if Dany fled, and the Slavers could win a bloodless victory. Despite having the advantage of numbers, taking Meereen by storm, against the Unsullied and thousands of freedmen, would be a bloody and desperate undertaking.

[HexMachina]

If Dany's forces win the battle for Meereen, if they successfully crush the Yunkai'i, and the rebellion as a whole is finally put to rest, then I suspect Xaro will turn back on Dany's doorstep with some sort of peace offering. He's an opportunist--he goes where the wind blows. In Qarth he wanted a dragon, so he tried to seduce Dany. In Meereen, he knew the situation of the Sons and her own dragons being locked up, and felt that it was only a matter of time before she fell from power. If Dany's power is secured after the big battle then he'll be back with tears in his eyes asking for friendship.

I can think of a well deserved response to that, starting in D and ending in S. ;)

I think Mladen makes a good point about the Essosi Cities, though I think some will not be tied into it. As it stands, I feel Lys, Tyrosh and Myr will be tied into Aegon/Illyrio/Varys, Volantis, Qarth, Matarys Tolos etc with Dany, Braavos with Arya. Pentos I think will be the link between Dany and Aegon.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

It's disturbing the degree to which people discount the actual opinions of freed slaves and then claim to speak for them and know what's best for them. Sadly, this is very true to history.

People cite the dead of Astapor as proof that Dany only made things worse, but we have no idea how many of those freed had come to believe, as Frederick Douglas preached, "Better even die free, than to live slaves." And more may have been slaughtered making just one or two batches of Unsullied in that hellhole.

We do hear from a Yunkish slave who likes being owned, so I don't doubt there were such people freed by Dany, just nowhere near to the degree that is widely claimed. We'll also get indications that some freed slaves turned against Dany, but I don't want to get ahead of the re-read. Overall I think she's acted according to the overwhelming majority will of the people, even against her self-interest.

Yes, I think they were sincere but naive and in the minority. Will wait till we reach the relevant chapter to say more.

Yes I think you are right, there are some cases of Dany making certain slaves lives worse by freeing them, but that is a very small percentage of everyone she freed.

And yes in the book it says that 1 out of 3 children who they take to become Unsullied actually lives through the training, so for every 1 finished Unsullied there are 2 dead children and 3 dead puppies(as they give the puppies during the first year of training).

I agree with Patrick Stormborn that some of these issues are no fun to talk about anymore because they have been hashed and rehashed so many times that many of us already know every single thing that could possibly be said about it. That's why I skipped the re-read on the day we were talking about the Wine sellers daughter. And I stand by what I said that the issue is never once brought up in the books again, meaning it really is not that important or as terrible as so many posters make it out to be. things that GRRM mentions once then never brings up again are that way because he doesn't want us to dwell on them.

And on a side note, I wanted to say that I have enjoyed this re-read thoroughly. I think we have covered all views on every subject, especially in the first 3 books. During those discussions it is more than obvious that we all have different views on Dany and by no means have we been whitewashing her nor have the conversations been one-sided. True there is not as much ridiculous and unfounded bashing of her that has nothing to do with the text as there is on the general forum, and anyone who desires that kind of talk is just a click away from the general topics. But I think that is a big plus that we dont have that here, that is the reason most of us wanted to do this re-read, since Dany is constantly shown in a negative light by the majority of the forum it is like a breath of fresh air to talk about the actual Dany from the books, and not the Hitler/Darth Vader/Stalin picture so many (inaccurately) paint of her. For us to be able to discuss her without all the cliche Dany-hate trolls around is wonderful. Now that we are in DwD there is a lot more intrigue and new characters that we have to deal with and the issues have become much more complex. I think we have been tackling DwD in the exact same way we tackled the first 3 books and I see nothing wrong with this re-read. Excellent work so far everyone :)

[SeanF]

I agree with Patrick Stormborn that some of these issues are no fun to talk about anymore because they have been hashed and rehashed so many times that many of us already know every single thing that could possibly be said about it. That's why I skipped the re-read on the day we were talking about the Wine sellers daughter. And I stand by what I said that the issue is never once brought up in the books again, meaning it really is not that important or as terrible as so many posters make it out to be. things that GRRM mentions once then never brings up again are that way because he doesn't want us to dwell on them.

Actually, quite a lot of things get a fairly casual mention, but have unexpected repurcussions several hundred pages further on

For example, Tyrion's refusal to take part in the dwarf-joisting contest, results in Penny's trying to murder him in Volantis. Or

Raff the Sweetling's murder of Lommy leads to his death at Arya's hands in Braavos

I'm not saying that I'm expecting there to be any repurcussions from the torture of the wineseller's daughters. But, nor would I be surprised if Martin did bring it back into the story.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Actually, quite a lot of things get a fairly casual mention, but have unexpected repurcussions several hundred pages further on

For example, Tyrion's refusal to take part in the dwarf-joisting contest, results in Penny's trying to murder him in Volantis. Or

Raff the Sweetling's murder of Lommy leads to his death at Arya's hands in Braavos

I'm not saying that I'm expecting there to be any repurcussions from the torture of the wineseller's daughters. But, nor would I be surprised if Martin did bring it back into the story.

No I agree with you, many parts of the plot come back later on and take fruition in the story. I am saying that in the case of the wineseller that does not happen and it is never mentioned again.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Quentyn I

I will try to mainly focus on the points which pertain to Dany.

This is Quentyn's first chapter. His father sent him on a secret mission to marry Dany and bring her forces in with Dorne before she comes to Westeros. This is a good plan in theory, but the problem lies in the person of Quentyn. He is not the right man for the job at all.

Outline

Quentyn and his band are in Volantis looking for a way to get to Meereen and Dany. They have already had problems just getting to Volantis and three of their troupe have already been killed by Corsairs. They are having a very hard time finding passage to SB. At the end Gerris comes up with an idea on how they can get there, by joining a company of sellswords.

Analysis

“Adventure Stank.”

This says it all. Foreshadowing of Quentyns entire doomed journey right from the beginning of his first chapter. GRRM is so hilarious with his irony and his chapter titles for Quentyn. ‘The Merchant’s Man’ is a lie they are telling to hide who they are, it’s not true, they are not wine merchants as they say. They are doomed adventurers. The next chapter title is “The Windblown” which as we know they also are not. They join the Winblown as a disguise to get to SB, but it is just a cover. Then ‘The Spurned Suitor’, which is ironic because he never had a chance with her, she is already engaged when he gets to her, so he is never really a suitor. Then of course the cu de gra chapter, ‘The Dragontamer’….Which of course is the most ironic, hilarious (and if I may say, cruel) chapter title I can think of. Not only does he fail to tame any dragons, but he dies horribly in the process. Poor Quentyn never had a chance……The foreshadowing and hints of how unsuccessful they will be starts in this first chapter.

During all Quentyn’s chapters he is constantly negative and full of self-doubt. This is not a man who could win Daenerys or ever tame a dragon. He does not have the right stuff in any sense. He is not attractive, does not have inner-bravery, constantly second-guesses everything he does. His inner monologue is just not that of a dragon. Even when he does try to give himself courage, he is just telling himself lies. Of course he is not even much in his own family either, Oberyn and Arianne are far more adventurous and dangerous. Neither of them appear scared ever, nor do they have upset stomachs and sweaty palms all the time. I really like Quentyn as a character, I think he is very well written in his role as someone who gets close but just misses the mark.

These quotes from Quentyn make my point clear;

“Quentyn cut a poor figure by comparison—short-legged and stocky, thickly built, with hair the brown of new-turned earth. His forehead was too high, his jaw too square, his nose too broad. A good honest face, a girl had called it once, but you should smile more.”

-He knows that his looks are just average, and it bothers him, you can tell.

"He knows my nature is as cautious as his is bold,"

--Quentyn already is thinking how Gerris would have been a better candidate, he mentions it severaltimes throughout his chapters, and Dany agrees with him when she sees them.

“I never asked for this, he thought.”

-He doesn’t want to be here, he doesn’t want this task, he is full of doubt, it’s the same thing when he is in the dragons cave in Meereen, which is why he failed.

“The most beautiful woman in the world, thought Quentyn. My bride-to-be, if the gods are good. Sometimes at night he lay awake imagining her face and form, and wondering why such a woman would ever want to marry him, of all the princes in the world. I am Dorne, he told himself. She will want Dorne.”

--He knows (or suspects) that Dany will be harder to sway than just simply showing up and her falling into his arms. But he is so doubtful that she will want him, that he justifies it by thinking, ‘she will want Dorne’

“Later, in Planky Town, the Dornishmen had toasted Quentyn’s future bride, made ribald japes about his wedding night to come, and talked about the things they’d see, the deeds they do, the glory they would win. All they won was a sailcloth sack filled with ballast stones.”

--this is a perfect metaphor for the whole trip, they are talking and planning big things, but in the end, she doesn’t want him and he gets killed = sack filled with ballast stones.

“Crawl back to Sunspear defeated, with my tail between my legs? His father’s disappointment would be more than Quentyn could bear, and the scorn of the Sand Snakes would be withering.”

--He is so worried about how he will look at home if he fails, he obviously was not the star of their group of kids growing up, my guess is that he was constantly out done by his sister and female cousins, and he wants to prove himself.

“And how much does a whore’s love cost? Truth be told, girls made Quentyn anxious, especially the pretty ones.”

--Yup. So confronting Dany should be no problem.

“And now the most beautiful woman in the world was waiting in Meereen, and he meant to do his duty and claim her for his bride. She will not refuse me. She will honor the agreement.”

--he is lying to himself to give himself confidence. I think deep down he knows this is all a terrible idea, but he does not want to let his father down, he does not want to look a fool. He knows the agreement does not even have anything to do with him or Dany. It is hardly her place to ‘honor’ something that was meant for Viserys.

“They look amusing,” Gerris said. “shall we stop and watch them fight? A laugh might serve you well Quent. You look like an old man who has not moved his bowels in half a year.”

--Just another example of Quent seeming upset, his heart is not in this journey. He knows he will fail and it is weighing heavily on him. IMO if he had a different mindset thing might go more smoothly. You have to know you can do something, you cant be so trepidatious and expect good results.

Other Points

I think it is interesting that here and in Tyrion’s chapters it is mentioned how the Lannisters will be sending their army or soldiers over here soon to deal with Dany, or that they would be watching the seas. Which is why Q and company did not find a boat in Planky Town, they thought it would get back to KL. Um they could not be more wrong. No one in the Lannister or Tyrell group cares AT ALL about Dany and her dragons, they have plenty else to worry about and IIRC are not giving anything happening in Meereen a second thought.

"Quentyn had begin to think that they might have done better to buy their ship in Planky Town. that would have drawn unwanted attention, however. the Spider had informers everywhere, even in the halls of Sunspear,'Dorne will bleed if your purpose is discivered,' his father had warned him, as they watched the children....'What we do is treason, make no mistake. Trust only your companiions, adn do your best to avoid attracting notice."

--Doran is right about the Spider having spies, but he is wrong to think anyone in KL cares at all right now. He put too much fear in Quentyn with this conversation, sure he should be careful, but not at the expense of his groups lives!

“The demon road is dangerous and too slow,” Quentyn said. “Tywin Lannister will send his own men after the queen once word of her reaches KL.” His father had been certain of that.”His will come with knives. If they reach her first—“

--But of course we know that the Lannister’s have heard of Dnay and do not care about her.

--Also Doran Martell is kind of an idiot IMO. This whole plan of his was completely ridiculous and dumb. He was too paranoid, making Quentyn go to Volantis to find a ship is what got half his crew and master killed. And sending Quentyn to do this to begin with is a bad idea, it was hubris. Thinking that Dany will be so willing to jump on anyone from Dorne, just because they are Dorne is a bad assumption to make without knowing any details of her current situation.

Valyrian decent and blood is still very important in the free cities. Having the blood of Valyria is a prized possession and worthy of status elevation and high-importance.

“The three triarchs are chosen from amongst those noble families who can prove unbroken decent from Old Valyria, to serve until the first day of the new year. “

--So when Dany or any Targaryen thinks or announces themselves as the blood of old Valyria, it is not just an empty statement from a pretentious girl, it matters a great deal to a great many people and is something to be proud of.

War is coming to SB

We see Volantis is on the outskirts of a battle zone. Everyone is talking about it, no one wants to go to SB because it is known to be dangerous, and the slave trade is known to be halted. Many merchants do not wish to sail there since there is no money to be made off selling slaves. Dany has succeeded at least in halting the slave trade and slowing it down all over the world.

“The Braavosi are descended from escaped slaves. They do not trade in Slaver’s Bay.”—So we can assume Bravos will stay out of the war.

“The seas around Valyris are perilous, and thick with corsairs.”—The Corsair king must be going to show up soon J

[BearQueen87]

Quentyn I

Nice job!

Poor Quentyn. That's my overall reaction every time I read a chapter from his POV: poor Quentyn.

During all Quentyn’s chapters he is constantly negative and full of self-doubt. This is not a man who could win Daenerys or ever tame a dragon. He does not have the right stuff in any sense. He is not attractive, does not have inner-bravery, constantly second-guesses everything he does. His inner monologue is just not that of a dragon. Even when he does try to give himself courage, he is just telling himself lies. Of course he is not even much in his own family either, Oberyn and Arianne are far more adventurous and dangerous. Neither of them appear scared ever, nor do they have upset stomachs and sweaty palms all the time. I really like Quentyn as a character, I think he is very well written in his role as someone who gets close but just misses the mark.

I remember the first time I read AFFC. When Doran Martell lays out his plans for Dany to Arianne and tells her that Dorne is getting its hearts desire of vengeance, fire and blood, I did a little fist pump like "yeah! This is going to be AWESOME." And this was before we met Quentyn. Then we meet Quentyn and he's not quite the adventurer Doran sets up in this plan of his. Nothing about him screams fire and blood. Quentyn is, really, just a victim of the Game of Thrones. All he wants is to get married and have kids and kiss girls and just live. But he is thrown into a world that he doesn't belong in and has no desire to be apart of. He kind of reminds me of Ned. Neither one had any interest in playing the Game and both loose their lives for it.

--Also Doran Martell is kind of an idiot IMO. This whole plan of his was completely ridiculous and dumb. He was too paranoid, making Quentyn go to Volantis to find a ship is what got half his crew and master killed. And sending Quentyn to do this to begin with is a bad idea, it was hubris. Thinking that Dany will be so willing to jump on anyone from Dorne, just because they are Dorne is a bad assumption to make without knowing any details of her current situation.

I think I agree. I really liked Doran in AFFC but then you met Quentyn you have to wonder if Doran needs his eyes and brain adjusted. Is he really that blind that he can't see that Quentyn is not the right man for the job AT ALL? It would almost be better to send Arianne, because even if Arianne and Dany can't come together romantically, Arianne at least has that fire inside her like Dany.

Dany might be more willing to listen and agree to a Dornish plan if Arianne, spit fire that she is, presented it.

Doran is also placing a lot of emphasis on Dorne itself. Dorne is nice, the swords it could provide are nice, but that doesn't mean you can conquer Westeros with just Dorne.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Nice job!

Poor Quentyn. That's my overall reaction every time I read a chapter from his POV: poor Quentyn.

I remember the first time I read AFFC. When Doran Martell lays out his plans for Dany to Arianne and tells her that Dorne is getting its hearts desire of vengeance, fire and blood, I did a little fist pump like "yeah! This is going to be AWESOME." And this was before we met Quentyn. Then we meet Quentyn and he's not quite the adventurer Doran sets up in this plan of his. Nothing about him screams fire and blood. Quentyn is, really, just a victim of the Game of Thrones. All he wants is to get married and have kids and kiss girls and just live. But he is thrown into a world that he doesn't belong in and has no desire to be apart of. He kind of reminds me of Ned. Neither one had any interest in playing the Game and both loose their lives for it.

I think I agree. I really liked Doran in AFFC but then you met Quentyn you have to wonder if Doran needs his eyes and brain adjusted. Is he really that blind that he can't see that Quentyn is not the right man for the job AT ALL? It would almost be better to send Arianne, because even if Arianne and Dany can't come together romantically, Arianne at least has that fire inside her like Dany.

Dany might be more willing to listen and agree to a Dornish plan if Arianne, spit fire that she is, presented it.

Doran is also placing a lot of emphasis on Dorne itself. Dorne is nice, the swords it could provide are nice, but that doesn't mean you can conquer Westeros with just Dorne.

Thanx:)

I agree Arianne would have been a better choice to send.

ETA: I agree with lower posts that she fucked up totally in her 'steal Myrcella' mission as well, and that she is flamboyant in her decisions. However in Dany's presence she may not have gone off about Viserys, that was an opinion Arianne formed based on her experiences in Dorne and after learning about fAegon, she may have had different opinions had she traveled to SB.

I still think she would have been a slightly better choice than Quentyn. But maybe Trystane would have been the best choice of all.

[HexMachina]

Nice job!

Poor Quentyn. That's my overall reaction every time I read a chapter from his POV: poor Quentyn.

I remember the first time I read AFFC. When Doran Martell lays out his plans for Dany to Arianne and tells her that Dorne is getting its hearts desire of vengeance, fire and blood, I did a little fist pump like "yeah! This is going to be AWESOME." And this was before we met Quentyn. Then we meet Quentyn and he's not quite the adventurer Doran sets up in this plan of his. Nothing about him screams fire and blood. Quentyn is, really, just a victim of the Game of Thrones. All he wants is to get married and have kids and kiss girls and just live. But he is thrown into a world that he doesn't belong in and has no desire to be apart of. He kind of reminds me of Ned. Neither one had any interest in playing the Game and both loose their lives for it.

I think I agree. I really liked Doran in AFFC but then you met Quentyn you have to wonder if Doran needs his eyes and brain adjusted. Is he really that blind that he can't see that Quentyn is not the right man for the job AT ALL? It would almost be better to send Arianne, because even if Arianne and Dany can't come together romantically, Arianne at least has that fire inside her like Dany.

Dany might be more willing to listen and agree to a Dornish plan if Arianne, spit fire that she is, presented it.

Doran is also placing a lot of emphasis on Dorne itself. Dorne is nice, the swords it could provide are nice, but that doesn't mean you can conquer Westeros with just Dorne.

I thin Doran over-estimates his son because he doesn't know him. Quentyn grew up with Lord Yronwood and seems to have spent most of his life there. Doran seems to have an image in his mind of what his son is that is inconsistent with the reality of the situation. Presumably he sees Quentyn from time to time, but he doesn't "know" him as he knows Arriane and Trystane. Considering that, it seems rather foolish for Doran to hinge his plans on Quentyn.

ETA: I do think Quentyn could have secured an alliance, just not a marriage. Dany was very open to the idea of an alliance, and why shouldn't she be? It has maximum benefits for her when she goes to Westeros, and minimal costs. IMO Arriane would have been incapable of doing this. She would see Dany engaged and go in all guns blazing, furious with Dany. What could Dany have offered Dorne if not her hand in marriage is a tricky question,.but I think some arrangement could have been reached

[SeanF]

The problem with Quentyn and Arianne is that neither of them is very bright. Quentyn is basically Tim-Nice-but-Dim. Arianne thinks the Game of Thrones is just a jolly round of sexual and political intrigue. Quentyn was always way out of his depth. Arianne would have travelled to Meereen, convinced that Dany murdered Viserys, which would have put them on a bad footing.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

“Later, in Planky Town, the Dornishmen had toasted Quentyn’s future bride, made ribald japes about his wedding night to come, and talked about the things they’d see, the deeds they do, the glory they would win. All they won was a sailcloth sack filled with ballast stones.”

This is pretty much exactly what Arianne did with her friends during her plans of Queenmaking.

"The Dornish nights grow cold out upon the sands. Garin gathered wood for them, bleached white branches from trees that had withered up and died a hundred years ago. Drey built a fire, whistling as he struck sparks off his flint.

Once the kindling caught, they sat around the flames and passed a skin of summerwine from hand to hand . . . all but Darkstar, who preferred to drink unsweetened lemonwater. Garin was in a lively mood and entertained them with the latest tales from the Planky Town at the mouth of the Greenblood, where the orphans of the river came to trade with the carracks, cogs, and galleys from across the narrow sea".

"We are seven, Arianne realized as they rode. She had not thought of that before, but it seemed a good omen for their cause. Seven riders on their way to glory. One day the singers will make all of us immortal".

For Arianne, adventure didn't stink. She wanted adventure and glory, and took the whole thing as a game (some game, not THE game), and failed miserably. Arianne did it to rebel against her father. Quentyn did it following his father's order. None of them had a chance. None of them had whatever it takes.

--Doran is right about the Spider having spies, but he is wrong to think anyone in KL cares at all right now. He put too much fear in Quentyn with this conversation, sure he should be careful, but not at the expense of his groups lives!

This is interesting because it's thought to be that Doran also has his own spies in KL and apparently, at least at that point, he doesn't. People who has suspected of being Dorne loyalists are Qyburn and Taena, and they both are very close to the court and council, enough to know what the Lannisters and Tyrells are planning to do. Of course, Taena got friendly with Cersei when Quentyn was probably on his way, but Qyburn was around already. And, if neither of them is the spy, I wonder who this person might be, who isn't really informing Doran with accurate facts.