Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part IV: ADwD

[BearQueen87]

LOL... I raise your ADWD, MOIAF and say it would be best part of ASOIAF :). Oberyn, Ellaria and Dany... One can dream...

Helena is right about Quentyn, but I simply have to say that Doran's plans regarding this does seem rather logical. But, just like with Catelyn's plans, Doran is constantly faced with unpredictable circumstances. It is quite the logical leap to assume that Dany will be dealing with Meereen. I assume that he could have predicted that Quentyn won't be appealing for Dany, but as I said, in politics of Westeros, these things are not taken into consideration. It seems that Tyrion is the only one who takes Dany's preferences into account.

I'm not even sure it's that Tyrion is taking her preferences into account. He understand people and he understands, without ever interacting with her or her brother, that Dany is not the scared girl in Pentos anymore who will just marry someone because she was promised. Tyrion seems to know that Dany has undergone some sort of personal transformation and came out of the fire a different creature. Doran, simply, doesn't.

In the politics of Westeros, yes, the Targaryen princess and the Dornish prince would have made an ideal match--but Dany isn't playing by those rules. She's conquering cities and freeing slaves but Doran isn't taking all this into account. He doesn't stop to think if Dany will play by Westerosi rules.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'm not even sure it's that Tyrion is taking her preferences into account. He understand people and he understands, without ever interacting with her or her brother, that Dany is not the scared girl in Pentos anymore who will just marry someone because she was promised. Tyrion seems to know that Dany has undergone some sort of personal transformation and came out of the fire a different creature. Doran, simply, doesn't.

Not only Doran. Victarion, and even Aegon think they can make Dany do whatever they want her to. The funniest thing is that Victarion, yes, the IDIOT, is the one who got it right, or at least better than the others. Quentyn said "I'm Dorne". What the hell is Dorne?? Dorne means nothing for Dany's current problem. Aegon says "she will" (or something). He's sure she will accept him because he's Aegon, son of Rhaegar and a Targaryen. They DO know Dany is in war, but they don't see how important is this war for Dany. Yet, Victarion at least has realised she NEEDS TO FIGHT ALONG with her and prove his axe is useful for her, because t hat's exactly what Dany needs. And that's because Victarion is, more than anything, a warrior. Dany needs a warrior. Neither Doran or Quentyn are, and Aegon has JUST began to become one.

[Parwan]

I have written a series of threads under the heading "Systemic Problems." The main idea is that the big problem is not the people who make mistakes, but the entire system that makes these mistakes damn near inevitable. This general attitude helps form my opinions on many things, e.g. the Quentyn mission. We can say that "The young prince was not the right man for the job." I agree with that. However, I say that the real difficulty was not the man, but the job. The whole friggin' thing was laced with bad ideas--bad ideas that, for the most part, fit into the way things are done in the Seven Kingdoms.

I thin Doran over-estimates his son because he doesn't know him. Quentyn grew up with Lord Yronwood and seems to have spent most of his life there. Doran seems to have an image in his mind of what his son is that is inconsistent with the reality of the situation. Presumably he sees Quentyn from time to time, but he doesn't "know" him as he knows Arriane and Trystane. Considering that, it seems rather foolish for Doran to hinge his plans on Quentyn.

ETA: I do think Quentyn could have secured an alliance, just not a marriage. Dany was very open to the idea of an alliance, and why shouldn't she be? ...

The tradition of fostering high-born youngsters has its drawbacks. One might say that Doran is being foolish. I'd reply that it's almost certainly a common sort of foolishness in the 7K.

It seems to me that the possibility of an alliance was there. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the aristocrats of Westeros do not appear to have great skills in diplomacy.

But we should always remember that from outside perspective, Dany's goal is Westeros. And he brings her at least some support from Westeros. Yes, Dorne is not what would bring victory for Dany, but it's a start. Especially since she is coming with the army of slaves and sellswords. So, as much as Hiz helps Dany solve the current issue, Quentyn, as well as Aegon, came from different perspective. So, the idea that this union is laughable or idiotic from the perspective of Dorne simply doesn't stand.

But that is how these things were happening. The arranged marriages were about some perceived compatibility between bride and groom. And this isn't the worst match out there. He sends his young son, who yeah, looks plain, but is also Prince of Dorne, which is among the highest titles in Westeros. If Viserys/Arianne match was arranged, then what was the logical assumption this wouldn't? Yeah, Doran didn't made psychological profiles of both Dany and Quentyn, but he didn't have to. These marriages were done for benefit.

The terms "laughable" and "idiotic" are far too harsh. It would be natural for a Westerosi leader to see Dany's goal as Westeros. Unfortunately, it seems characteristic of Westerosi leaders that they don't work hard enough at checking on their assumptions, making sure that the facts square up with said assumptions. This relates to a general matter that I have put this way: "We often observe a regrettable lack of intelligence, in both senses of the word, on both sides of the narrow sea." More on this below.

Some thought should have been given to the facts that the contract was totally unknown to Daenerys, and that it didn't actually involve her anyway. I don't know to what extent this is a mistake that should be attributed to particularly bad thinking on Doran's part. My tendency is to believe that it's the sort of lack of insight that can be expected of someone used to arranged marriages.

...It is quite the logical leap to assume that Dany will be dealing with Meereen. I assume that he could have predicted that Quentyn won't be appealing for Dany, but as I said, in politics of Westeros, these things are not taken into consideration. It seems that Tyrion is the only one who takes Dany's preferences into account.

You don't have to make great leaps in logic if you make reasonable efforts to gather intelligence. No one in Dorne does this in the vitally important matter of Daenerys Targaryen. It really is not a good plan to make no contact with this young woman or her brother for years, and then to send your eldest (but inexperienced) son out across the sea at the stormiest time of year. Dany learned a lot about Robert's death and the resulting developments by the simple act of sending Jorah to the waterfront. Long before the dragon queen turned her ships toward Slaver's Bay, her exploits were well-known. They were well-known in Essos. They were well enough known in Westeros by those who decided to pay attention and gather info. It would also have been easy enough to initiate some low-level contact with the Targaryen forces in Essos. It would not have been necessary to send a prince, or even a knight. Nor would it have been necessary to reveal the contract.

The Prince of Dorne did not do well here. He is not alone. In fact, his failure was more or less to be expected. Most of the leaders in the 7K would not have done any better in his place.

SusannaStormborn said:

...

Other Points

I think it is interesting that here and in Tyrion’s chapters it is mentioned how the Lannisters will be sending their army or soldiers over here soon to deal with Dany, or that they would be watching the seas. Which is why Q and company did not find a boat in Planky Town, they thought it would get back to KL. Um they could not be more wrong. No one in the Lannister or Tyrell group cares AT ALL about Dany and her dragons, they have plenty else to worry about and IIRC are not giving anything happening in Meereen a second thought.

"Quentyn had begin to think that they might have done better to buy their ship in Planky Town. that would have drawn unwanted attention, however. the Spider had informers everywhere, even in the halls of Sunspear,'Dorne will bleed if your purpose is discivered,' his father had warned him, as they watched the children....'What we do is treason, make no mistake. Trust only your companiions, adn do your best to avoid attracting notice."

--Doran is right about the Spider having spies, but he is wrong to think anyone in KL cares at all right now. He put too much fear in Quentyn with this conversation, sure he should be careful, but not at the expense of his groups lives!

“The demon road is dangerous and too slow,” Quentyn said. “Tywin Lannister will send his own men after the queen once word of her reaches KL.” His father had been certain of that.”His will come with knives. If they reach her first—“

--But of course we know that the Lannister’s have heard of Dnay and do not care about her.

...

Tywin Lannister is not an idiot, but he is over-rated. I'm concentrating on book Tywin. In the matters we're discussing here, HBO Tywin does much better. I do not buy the excuses put forth on other threads for book Tywin: Oh, he was too busy burning the riverlands, hiring horrendous sellswords, and otherwise raping Westeros to worry about important events in Essos.

The lack of intelligence is general in the 7K. It is particularly marked in KL. Just about every powerful person in the place is heavily involved in gathering info on everyone else. When it comes to back-stabbing and sleazeballing, these people are masters in the art of spy craft. However, when it comes to any sort of foreign intelligence, everyone is dependent on this contemptible spider. The man is a foreigner, a eunuch, not really a lord, and on, and on. Oh, and he's also a traitor (though that is not known). Incredibly, no one checks his reports. No one but the spider appears to know much that goes on even in Pentos, much less in more distant places. Varys is the only one in the capital who knows about the hammer blows that are coming from the east.

[SeanF]

I'm not even sure it's that Tyrion is taking her preferences into account. He understand people and he understands, without ever interacting with her or her brother, that Dany is not the scared girl in Pentos anymore who will just marry someone because she was promised. Tyrion seems to know that Dany has undergone some sort of personal transformation and came out of the fire a different creature. Doran, simply, doesn't.

In the politics of Westeros, yes, the Targaryen princess and the Dornish prince would have made an ideal match--but Dany isn't playing by those rules. She's conquering cities and freeing slaves but Doran isn't taking all this into account. He doesn't stop to think if Dany will play by Westerosi rules.

I imagine that the political players in Westeros who take notice of Dany are thinking of her in their own terms. ie she's sacking and plundering cities in order to establish a power base (that's how Tyrion sees her). Unless and until they got very close to Slavers Bay, few Westerners would appreciate how important her campaign against slavery was to her.

[SeanF]

Tywin Lannister is not an idiot, but he is over-rated. I'm concentrating on book Tywin. In the matters we're discussing here, HBO Tywin does much better. I do not buy the excuses put forth on other threads for book Tywin: Oh, he was too busy burning the riverlands, hiring horrendous sellswords, and otherwise raping Westeros to worry about important events in Essos.

The lack of intelligence is general in the 7K. It is particularly marked in KL. Just about every powerful person in the place is heavily involved in gathering info on everyone else. When it comes to back-stabbing and sleazeballing, these people are masters in the art of spy craft. However, when it comes to any sort of foreign intelligence, everyone is dependent on this contemptible spider. The man is a foreigner, a eunuch, not really a lord, and on, and on. Oh, and he's also a traitor (though that is not known). Incredibly, no one checks his reports. No one but the spider appears to know much that goes on even in Pentos, much less in more distant places. Varys is the only one in the capital who knows about the hammer blows that are coming from the east.

If I was a lord in the Riverlands, or at Kings Landing, I probably wouldn't be paying very much attention to what was happening 6,000 miles away.

[BearQueen87]

I imagine that the political players in Westeros who take notice of Dany are thinking of her in their own terms. ie she's sacking and plundering cities in order to establish a power base (that's how Tyrion sees her). Unless and until they got very close to Slavers Bay, few Westerners would appreciate how important her campaign against slavery was to her.

Oh I'm not expecting them to understand how important the cause of slavery is to her. But they don't seem to grasp (except Tyrion) that she's not playing by Westerosi rules anymore. Even if they believe she's sacking cities to establish her own power base, it still means that she's becoming a very powerful woman in her own right, one who conquers and "leads armies" and has dragons. She's not going to say, "oh. Someone made a contract for me to marry this stranger? Oh. Well alright then!"

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I have written a series of threads under the heading "Systemic Problems." The main idea is that the big problem is not the people who make mistakes, but the entire system that makes these mistakes damn near inevitable. This general attitude helps form my opinions on many things, e.g. the Quentyn mission. We can say that "The young prince was not the right man for the job." I agree with that. However, I say that the real difficulty was not the man, but the job. The whole friggin' thing was laced with bad ideas--bad ideas that, for the most part, fit into the way things are done in the Seven Kingdoms.

The tradition of fostering high-born youngsters has its drawbacks. One might say that Doran is being foolish. I'd reply that it's almost certainly a common sort of foolishness in the 7K.

It seems to me that the possibility of an alliance was there. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the aristocrats of Westeros do not appear to have great skills in diplomacy.

The terms "laughable" and "idiotic" are far too harsh. It would be natural for a Westerosi leader to see Dany's goal as Westeros. Unfortunately, it seems characteristic of Westerosi leaders that they don't work hard enough at checking on their assumptions, making sure that the facts square up with said assumptions. This relates to a general matter that I have put this way: "We often observe a regrettable lack of intelligence, in both senses of the word, on both sides of the narrow sea." More on this below.

Some thought should have been given to the facts that the contract was totally unknown to Daenerys, and that it didn't actually involve her anyway. I don't know to what extent this is a mistake that should be attributed to particularly bad thinking on Doran's part. My tendency is to believe that it's the sort of lack of insight that can be expected of someone used to arranged marriages.

You don't have to make great leaps in logic if you make reasonable efforts to gather intelligence. No one in Dorne does this in the vitally important matter of Daenerys Targaryen. It really is not a good plan to make no contact with this young woman or her brother for years, and then to send your eldest (but inexperienced) son out across the sea at the stormiest time of year. Dany learned a lot about Robert's death and the resulting developments by the simple act of sending Jorah to the waterfront. Long before the dragon queen turned her ships toward Slaver's Bay, her exploits were well-known. They were well-known in Essos. They were well enough known in Westeros by those who decided to pay attention and gather info. It would also have been easy enough to initiate some low-level contact with the Targaryen forces in Essos. It would not have been necessary to send a prince, or even a knight. Nor would it have been necessary to reveal the contract.

The Prince of Dorne did not do well here. He is not alone. In fact, his failure was more or less to be expected. Most of the leaders in the 7K would not have done any better in his place.

Tywin Lannister is not an idiot, but he is over-rated. I'm concentrating on book Tywin. In the matters we're discussing here, HBO Tywin does much better. I do not buy the excuses put forth on other threads for book Tywin: Oh, he was too busy burning the riverlands, hiring horrendous sellswords, and otherwise raping Westeros to worry about important events in Essos.

The lack of intelligence is general in the 7K. It is particularly marked in KL. Just about every powerful person in the place is heavily involved in gathering info on everyone else. When it comes to back-stabbing and sleazeballing, these people are masters in the art of spy craft. However, when it comes to any sort of foreign intelligence, everyone is dependent on this contemptible spider. The man is a foreigner, a eunuch, not really a lord, and on, and on. Oh, and he's also a traitor (though that is not known). Incredibly, no one checks his reports. No one but the spider appears to know much that goes on even in Pentos, much less in more distant places. Varys is the only one in the capital who knows about the hammer blows that are coming from the east.

Yes, what you are saying makes a lot of sense, and I completely agree that many of the lords in the 7K are just as ignorant about Dany as Doran appears to be.

Also I really like your point that it is widely known that Dnay was alive this whole time. But of course none of the great Lords from the 7K are interested in her at all until they realize she has 3 dragons. It is the same thing with Doran, and while I understand that he desires the dragons, i dont think it was worth sacrificing his oldest son over. Of course he couldnt know that Q would die, but lets be honest, Slaver's Bay is one of, if not the most dangerous place in the world right now. Dorne had no contact with Dany during her entire life, and Quentyns heart is not really in this adventure. All in all it was a bad idea to send him. Like I said in my analysis I like Quentyn, he is a nice guy who got caught up in something that was very far over his head. But I dont blame him, I blame Doran. like other posters here have said, Doran did not seem to know his son very well, and it was a little bit of hubris, like; 'any son of mine will succeed because he is Martell and he is Dornish.'

I also do not think Tywin is an idiot, but he was also completely oblivious to what was going on with Dany before he died, he was making no plans regarding her. And that was obviously a failure on his part due to the fact that the Dornish were expecting him to send people or soldiers to check out Dany. It's like since Dorne was already sending an envoy (rather late in the game) they automatically assumed Tywin would be too.

[MoIaF]

Quentyn I

Great recap! Thank you. :cheers: :thumbsup:

Touching on something that has been comment on in the last few post about how Westeros views that is happening in Slaver's Bay and I suppose Essos in general it kind of struck me how Quentyn and Co. don't seem to really think anything about slavery.

Slavery is illegal in Westeros yet they sort of accepted it in Volantis much like how Dany did growing up. I think this begins to show us (we'll see more later) how much more brutal slavery is in Salver's Bay compared to the other slaving cities.

[BearQueen87]

Great recap! Thank you. :cheers: :thumbsup:

Touching on something that has been comment on in the last few post about how Westeros views that is happening in Slaver's Bay and I suppose Essos in general it kind of struck me how Quentyn and Co. don't seem to really think anything about slavery.

Slavery is illegal in Westeros yet they sort of accepted it in Volantis much like how Dany did growing up. I think this begins to show us (we'll see more later) how much more brutal slavery is in Salver's Bay compared to the other slaving cities.

This, I think, is a VERY good point. Even in the Free Cities, like Pentos, slavery isn't wholly abolished. Men with enough power and money (Illyrio) can have collard slaves. But the slaves in these places are given higher positions: scribes, healers, ect. Even the Unsullied that are in the Free Cities are not the lean hard warriors we met in Astapor (remember how skeptical Dany was when Jorah suggested going to see the Unsullied, because of what she saw in Pentos).

[HexMachina]

Great recap! Thank you. :cheers: :thumbsup:

Touching on something that has been comment on in the last few post about how Westeros views that is happening in Slaver's Bay and I suppose Essos in general it kind of struck me how Quentyn and Co. don't seem to really think anything about slavery.

Slavery is illegal in Westeros yet they sort of accepted it in Volantis much like how Dany did growing up. I think this begins to show us (we'll see more later) how much more brutal slavery is in Salver's Bay compared to the other slaving cities.

This, I think, is a VERY good point. Even in the Free Cities, like Pentos, slavery isn't wholly abolished. Men with enough power and money (Illyrio) can have collard slaves. But the slaves in these places are given higher positions: scribes, healers, ect. Even the Unsullied that are in the Free Cities are not the lean hard warriors we met in Astapor (remember how skeptical Dany was when Jorah suggested going to see the Unsullied, because of what she saw in Pentos).

Good points, something I never really thought about before. Being from Westeros, you would expect a bit more of a reaction to slavery. Interesting. However, they also don't seem to show a great reaction when they reach Slaver's Bay, unless I am misremembering. But then, I suppose they have bigger things on their mind at the time? (e.g. the horrors of Astapor, betraying the Windblown.)

[MoIaF]

This, I think, is a VERY good point. Even in the Free Cities, like Pentos, slavery isn't wholly abolished. Men with enough power and money (Illyrio) can have collard slaves. But the slaves in these places are given higher positions: scribes, healers, ect. Even the Unsullied that are in the Free Cities are not the lean hard warriors we met in Astapor (remember how skeptical Dany was when Jorah suggested going to see the Unsullied, because of what she saw in Pentos).

Good points, something I never really thought about before. Being from Westeros, you would expect a bit more of a reaction to slavery. Interesting. However, they also don't seem to show a great reaction when they reach Slaver's Bay, unless I am misremembering. But then, I suppose they have bigger things on their mind at the time? (e.g. the horrors of Astapor, betraying the Windblown.)

You will think that Quentyn and Co. would have had a much stronger reaction against slavery given that they grew up and spent all their lives in Westeros. On the other hand Dany who grew up around the Free Cities was more accustomed to it. Of course Dany's views are also influenced by her own experience being sold but still as far back as her first AGOT chapter we see her making comments about how Illyrio has slaves even though there aren't suppose to have any in Pentos.

Helena I think you might be right, other than Astapor which is what I was thinking about) we don't get any criticism of slavery that I can remember (it's been a while since I read the other chapters).

[HexMachina]

Helena I think you might be right, other than Astapor which is what I was thinking about) we don't get any criticism of slavery that I can remember (it's been a while since I read the other chapters).

Yeah, I haven't read those chapters in a while, but we will be there soon I guess. From what I remember, Quentyn is rather horrified by the slaughter and horrendous conditions he sees in Astapor (things really must have been desperate. They put a corpse in armour to lead them for goodness sake :ack: :stillsick: ) and there is also the preoccupation with them leaving the Windblown. Then of course, he gets to Meereen, where he is isolated from slavery. This could explain a lack of reaction to slavery i suppose - they never really witness the truly horrific sides of it.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Great recap! Thank you. :cheers: :thumbsup:

Touching on something that has been comment on in the last few post about how Westeros views that is happening in Slaver's Bay and I suppose Essos in general it kind of struck me how Quentyn and Co. don't seem to really think anything about slavery.

Slavery is illegal in Westeros yet they sort of accepted it in Volantis much like how Dany did growing up. I think this begins to show us (we'll see more later) how much more brutal slavery is in Salver's Bay compared to the other slaving cities.

Thank you dear, what a polite way to respond. :)

Yes I completely agree that Slaver's Bay is the worst of the cities where slavery is legal. As I said earlier, it may be the worst place in the world. (from the parts of Planetos we have been privy to).

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Thanks for the analysis Suzanne!

I haven't read the chapter yet, so I'll comment more appropriately later on.

I'll comment on Quentyn's self-doubt for now.

Quentyn's self-doubt is definitely a factor in him not being able to tame a dragon. Blood of the dragon is a requirement to tame dragons but there is a lot more than that, courage is one of the essential factors as portrayed in APATQ and the Rogue Prince. Viserys I stated that Aemond could have a dragon if he is "brave enough" so that definitely seems like a requirement which Quentyn has already shown signs of not having.

[SeanF]

I think that Slavers Bay is where the sausage gets made. Slavery is far more genteel on the West Coast of Essos. People from Westeros can rationalise and accept it. Dany, for example, would never have condemned slavery, had she not come to Astapor, and learned how the Unsullied were created.

[Parwan]

If I was a lord in the Riverlands, or at Kings Landing, I probably wouldn't be paying very much attention to what was happening 6,000 miles away.

If I were the head man of some holdfast between Riverrun and High Heart, I wouldn’t give a thought to dragons, living Targaryens, or the cities of Slaver’s Bay. The comments in my last post weren’t aimed at Westerosi lords in general. I was talking about the high lords and the members of the government in King’s Landing. Such people, if they are competent, have to be concerned with maintaining the established order. They should note that:

1. A few hundred years ago, 3 people with dragons overthrew the established order.

2. King Bob, a short time ago, was extremely upset about 2 of the descendants of these 3 people. He had reason to be upset, and most of his small council agreed with him about the seriousness of the situation. The Dothraki are fierce warriors. Many men at the ceremonies in Pentos were rich and powerful fellows. It’s not likely that these men were there just for fun. If you cannot see a threat to the crown in this situation, then you can’t see very well. Rich powerful fellows probably attend important wedding ceremonies because they think that the wedding may have a significant influence on future politics. The future they are looking toward may not be one you will enjoy.

3. This matter has not been well tracked. There were reports about Daenerys and Viserys. These reports have stopped. It appears that the reporter has gone over to the other side.

4. The man who is responsible for gathering and presenting info on this vital issue is a guy who should not be trusted. The gods know what might be coming at you from the east. Varys has info on the matter. Do you really want to depend on him to present an accurate picture?

5. There are disturbing reports out of the east about dragons. Remember dragons? Remember what happened the last time dragons came to Westeros? Many people are making light of these reports. Such people are fools. It isn't just that they don't fully believe everything they hear. They don't bother to do any checking at all.

To me, the inability of powerful people in the Seven Kingdoms to react appropriately to threats to the current dynasty is not surprising. In truth, they seem largely, and willfully, blind to existential threats to the realm itself. In the past, I have put the matter this way:

Stark Words: Winter is Coming.

Everyone Else's Words: We Don’t Give a Damn.

Back-stabbing, starting wars, slaughtering peasants, burning crops--these are not things that competent people do to prepare for a harsh winter.

Dany is sometimes criticized in these forums because she has not yet made any contacts with the lords in Westeros. I think that these criticisms are legitimate. My point here is that the criticism can be turned around. The criticism is just as legitimate when directed at the high lords. Doran at least knows that the dragons are real and important. Euron knows this also. Most of the other important people in Westeros are clueless.

[Kyoshi]

New chapter! :laugh: Great analysis, Suzanna. :cheers:

^I agree that the high lords and prominent "players" should have paid more attention to Dany and her dragons. The story of Aegon the Conqueror is a very popular one in the 7K yet somehow none of them see the threat new dragons pose to the realm and throne, especially dragons belonging to an exiled princess who has a legitimate claim to the throne. Poor planning and foresight all around.

With regard to Quentyn and Doran, I think one of the factors in Doran deciding to send Quentyn on the mission was that of blood and birthright. When Walder Frey offered a non-first born son to marry Tytos Lannister's only daughter it was perceived by everyone as an insult, which it probably was. This is one of the flaws in Westerosi diplomacy, courtesy, everything about their general decision-making.

Doran's heir is Arianne but she is female and therefore by non-Dornish Westerosi law she would inherit after Quentyn; all other laws deem her somewhat less important than her male siblings. It's quite possible that Doran wanted to avoid "insulting" Dany by sending someone "lesser", the same way the Iron Throne "insulted" the Martells by sending Tyrion (a dwarf and second son) to welcome them to King's Landing. Of course that may not be the case at all and Doran genuinely believed Quentyn to be the best man for the job. But with every thought in this chapter we see just how insecure he actually is. Either Doran was willfully blind to his son's confidence and capabilities or ...I don't know what he could have thought, nothing logical comes to mind.

He could have sent Oberyn (this for me is mainly because of Pedro Pascal). But much like sending Arianne, this may have been perceived as another kind of insult by Doran, as was perceived by Tyrion and Cersei's when he Oberyn arrived in King's Landing IIRC. Everyone wants either a first son or the current Lord. I'm not saying this is what happened but who knows... :dunno:

Additionally, I don't think at that time Doran would have trusted Arianne with such a big plan. He didn't seem to trust her (rightfully so) until after she had tried declare Myrcella as queen. Someone who's a cross between Arianne and Quentyn would have been the best option. Maybe Trystanne is that person but he's too young and again, a second son.

[HexMachina]

About the dragons and the Westerosi ignoring them;

Its not really that surprising. Initially (aGoT, aCoK, part of aSoS) there are more immediate concerns with the War of the Five Kings. After that the Kingdom.is recovering, and even then the conflict isnt fully over (with Stannis in the North). By the time a semblance of order is restored, tragedy strikes Kings Landing with Joffrey's death and Tywins death. Rumours are brought to Kings Landing about the dragons, but that is all there is, rumours. Since dragons have been extinct for.150 years or so, its hardly surprising they disregard these rumours. When a competent SC is restored in Dance, we see the threat being taken seriously.

[Kyoshi]

^I think in Dance the Small Council worries about Daenerys in relation to Aegon. They seem more concerned that she will strengthen Aegon's claim. No one seems concerned about Daenerys alone. She's either a pawn or a non-piece.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

^I think in Dance the Small Council worries about Daenerys in relation to Aegon. They seem more concerned that she will strengthen Aegon's claim. No one seems concerned about Daenerys alone. She's either a pawn or a non-piece.

They obviously dont know who they are dealing with. :)