R+L=J v.91

[MtnLion]

But more important, I don't know that GRRM has to be "tolling" us for R+L= legit J not to be true. Although I have an incredibly hard time imaging an alternative scenario, maybe GRRM has been planting different clues that we have been missing for the "real" resolution of the mystery. We have only been picking up on the "red herrings" suggesting R+L=legit J, but GRRM has been planning an even better resolution of the mystery and once we find out what it is, we will go back and see how the clues were all there and really pointing to this other alternative, but we just missed them and fell for the "head fake" of R+L=legit J.

I kept reading your post, and stumbling on this one paragraph. A red herring is just that, it is a bright flashing sign that entices someone away from the truth. It is not a subtlety, it is blatant. If R + L = J were blatant the title of this thread would be R + L # J, and we would discuss the subtle clues that expose the red herring. ;)

[Ser Creighton]

a 30 year old man 2 body guards with a 16 year old woman... showing her his special place for a few nights before moving on...

Have we forgotten that he already said that Aegon was the prince that was promised... in Dany's house of the undying vision?

Yes the special place... and tell Dayne and Whent to go pick some berries.... and when they get back they will all have a tea party.

Hey hands above the belt? No need to get that sarcastic, some people have different ideas than you. Some people think there may be a romance involved some don't it's not up to any of us to decide that. When we find out we find out. But if she wants to think that till then so be it there are better ways to disagree with a poster and not be condescending.

Some hope for a little bit happiness from the books, granted they are Grimm and sorrowful but after twenty years a little nice nice and a little happy wouldn't hurt. Might kill Martin but it wouldn't hurt us. Might hurt some of us depends on your point of view. Think about this most posters idea of happy up to this point is a 13-14 year old king strangling to death from poison. Though most miss him, and Tywin. Frey Pie, Frey Pie was a happy moment, so cannibalism. Our beacon of happiness is and hope is cannibalism. Jaime, Jaime is giving us hope, I mean sure he threatened to start launching peoples kids into Riverrun, you might call it a step back, but he had good reason. There was some romance before Robb got butchered in the most brutal seen in the books to date. Jon was going to go save Arya before he got stabbed by his own people. I think the name Stark is an understatement.

So as you can see an actual nice moment would be nice and I can understand some leaning that way. I believe the word is hope, Martin likes hope. He likes to dash, bash it, smash it, crush it, break it and bake it. Now I am depressed, thanks.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

As I said in the last thread, it was common for an older man to getting married to a younger girl (once they start to bleed with their periods). It was very common in those days.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Not to speak for AM (she is more than capable of speaking for herself), but I don't think the objection is to the acknowledgement that there is a small chance GRRM might go another way. The objection is to people spending time putting forth theories or arguments in support of a position that only has a 1% chance of being correct. So off-hand acknowledgement of possibility, fine--while argumentative posturing about the possibility--annoying.

This is pretty much exactly what I was going for. Jon could turn out to be Lyanna's son with Kodos, but it's so far out that it isn't worth the time it takes to discuss it.

[stateofdissipation]

Why must you continue to make stuff up out of thin air? I said dry blood smells almost like fresh blood.

Keep on showing everyone how you simply 'invent' what ever is needed to make your point *regardless of facts.

Lets check what rlan had to say...

Arlan of Pennytree, on 26 Jul 2014 - 01:06 AM, said:----Dried blood is DRY, it does not rot. People have been drying raw meat for thousands of years, it does not ROT if it is dry. Regardless of volume, if it is dry it is not rotting, and will not smell of decay. You ever had Jerkey? Also, I assume the the climate was dry @ To----

I said dry blood smells almost like fresh blood.

Really.....is not the same as...

if it is dry it is not rotting, and will not smell of decay.

stateofdissipation, on 25 Jul 2014 - 9:25 PM, said;

But back on topic...

If dry blood does not smell as you have so confusingly stated. The blood Ned smelled was not dry....Thank you for answering your own question.---In a very strange and round about fashion.

Your question was: "how do we know the blood was fresh"

---I cited that Ned smelled it.

You were kind enough to confirm that dried blood does not smell.

--Thank You.

I did not mean to misrepresent your position.....

Dried blood is DRY, it does not rot smells almost like fresh. People have been drying smells almost like fresh. raw meat for thousands of years, it does not ROT if it is dry smells almost like fresh. Regardless of volume, if it is dry smells almost like fresh. it is not rotting, and will not smell of decay You ever had Jerkey (dried) smells almost like fresh? Also, I assume the the climate was dry @ To smells almost like fresh

I believe that covers dry smells almost like fresh....

But back on topic...

If dry blood does not smell as you have so confusingly stated. smells almost like fresh The blood Ned smelled was not dry because Ned did not say "a room that smelled almost like fresh blood and roses"...

Thank you for answering your own question.---In a very strange and round--and round about again fashion.

Your question was: "how do we know the blood was fresh"

---I cited that Ned smelled it.

You were kind enough to confirm that dried blood smells almost like fresh

--Thank You.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I kept reading your post, and stumbling on this one paragraph. A red herring is just that, it is a bright flashing sign that entices someone away from the truth. It is not a subtlety, it is blatant. If R + L = J were blatant the title of this thread would be R + L # J, and we would discuss the subtle clues that expose the red herring. ;)

I think you know I agree with you on this point. What I was trying to suggest is that some people have convinced themselves that the clues to R+L=J are so obvious that they must really be a red herring and we are missing the more subtle clues. Or maybe that we are just completely misreading the clues and the real meaning of these clues will become obvious once the truth is revealed by GRRM. I agree that these analyses makes no sense. I was just trying my best to get into their heads (and probably failing).

[BearQueen87]

This is pretty much exactly what I was going for. Jon could turn out to be Lyanna's son with Kodos, but it's so far out that it isn't worth the time it takes to discuss it.

Agreed. I read some of the other theories people have (R+L = D; B+A = J; whatever) and they simply don't make sense with all the clues for R and L = J.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

It's oblivous from the start.

Lyanna ran away from Harrenhal with Rhaegar. (Kidnapped by Robert's terms)

Brandon and Rickon Stark are killed by the Mad King...
War starts....
For a year everyone battles out. KL is sacked and Jaime kills the king.

Boom...Robert is king.

Ned goes to find his sister...

[Disputatious]

Goodness, we seem to moving rather quickly, don't we?

v. 100 by September: Come on people, we can do it!

[BearQueen87]

v. 100 by September: Come on people, we can do it!

lol September?? August. We'll have it before August 3rd at the rate they've been going lately.

[UnmaskedLurker]

v. 100 by September: Come on people, we can do it!

September? I think you mean August at this pace.

[UnmaskedLurker]

lol September?? August. We'll have it before August 3rd at the rate they've been going lately.

You ninjaed me.

[sj4iy]

You ninjaed me.

That reminds me...why hasn't anyone offered up some R+L=J theories with ninjas yet? Because we've had everything else under the sun, and ninjas would be pretty awesome.

[BearQueen87]

That reminds me...why hasn't anyone offered up some R+L=J theories with ninjas yet? Because we've had everything else under the sun, and ninjas would be pretty awesome.

Howland Reed was clearly a ninja if he could assist in taking down Dayne. His spear turned into nunchunks.

[stateofdissipation]

No we haven't forgotten. We think Rhaegar wised up and realized that Aegon can't be TPTWP. He's not the song of ice and fire, he can't be.

Interesting. I hadn't considered Essos.

sorry headcanon exemption......

wish you had said so...

[BearQueen87]

LINK to a great thread Apple Martini put together based on something sj4iy said. For people who think Jon being a secret prince is too cliche.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

Agreed. I read some of the other theories people have (R+L = D; B+A = J; whatever) and they simply don't make sense with all the clues for R and L = J.

Yeah I find the timeline alone hard to make those theories. Whereas R+L=J just makes sense. Those do have some foundation to them though. I do believe GRRM is gunna throw us a curveball about Jon though. Maybe he won't be a legitimate Targaryen, just Jon Snow from a different lineage

[honeyed chicken]

If Rhaegar and Lyanna are hiding from Aerys, Dragonstone is not an option - limited access, too many people. The same, IMHO, goes for Starfall which, due to Dayne's close relationship with Rhaegar and his disappearance together with R+L, is the next logical location to look for them, along with Summerhall.

ToJ is halfway (approximately) between Summerhall and Starfall. I have no idea if the location is somehow important.

To their best knowledge, there were 4 more KG, Darry, Martell, Selmy and Jaime, who were carrying out the sworn duty, so Whent, Dayne and Hightower could be assigned to another task, just like Ser Arys or Loras Tyrell.

Our notion of what Hightower is like comes from Jaime's PoV, as well, and he didn't leave the king's side but was sent by Aerys to ensure Rhaegar's return. Dayne and Whent were Rhaegar's personal bodyguards.

If Aerys knew where Lyanna was, she would either be toast or a hostage against Ned and Robert and Rhaegar. No way Aerys knew where she was.

How did Rhaegar make Hightower stay? He did have some authority to command the KG, and he could have used a little blackmail - if you want me to go to KL, you must stay here.

I have little doubt that Aerys didn't want his KG to stay at ToJ, but if he didn't command Hightower expressly that he must needs come back with Rhaegar, then Hightower could stay on Rhaegar's order, and if Aerys had no means of communicating with ToJ, he couldn't countermand Rhaegar's order (or perhaps Rhaegar did strike a deal with him).

???? What do you mean by the bolded? Besides, he is not the only to arrive, he has six men with him whose reliability is a big unknown to the KG. Had he arrived solely on his own, they might have taken the chances with him.

Also, for Targaryen loyalists, Robert is not king, he is an Usurper - they do not acknowledge his claim and authority over them.

Take it to GRRM, then - I'm sure that someone will fish for you the SSM about the KG obeying the royal family, as well.

Not rebels, loyalists.

Yet, for some reason, Selmy doesn't make it to Ned's shining examples of Kingsguard.

As we have seen time and again, bending knee is not considered a dishonour when your side has lost and it's either that or death.

Good fanfiction shouldn't go against the canon. Jaime and 3 more KG can handle the duty just fine, at the time when Hightower is leaving.

And what makes you think that Rhaegar spread word at the court that he and Lyanna got married? That was neither the time nor place to push for any controversies.

Well, I'm not totally wed to it :-) /pulls out Ethan Glover aka Rhaegar's messenger in case the battle went south/ :-)

This is a pretty unbased assumption, contradicting the way the Westerosi society is depicted.

- Oh, and if you're ignoring what I'm saying, remove me from your friend list, I'm not going to do it for you.

I'm sorry.

I never ignore what you say. I've been using your excellent post about the disposition of the KG throughout the Robert's rebellion time period (which I did bookmark),as the basis for a lot of my questioning.

But I'm fading fast and need to get to bed, so I can't do justice to what you've written today.

But I have a question: may I pm you? Or better yet, would you pm me? Please? I unfortunately have to work tomorrow and Sunday, but I'll write when I can.

The reason is:

Today at work I had an idea for a unified field theory for Jon, (based on a legit Jon), the toj, and the 3 KG that provides an explanation for what I consider to be the unanswerable questions of this mystery.

I think you might be the best person to point out the holes in it and where in the text the evidence comes from that might disprove it.

[mambru]

If Elia was okay with everything, I think it was because Rhaegar explained everything. We know so little about Elia of Drone. It's...odd. We have Ned and others thoughts about Lyanna; Ned and others thoughts about Rhaegar. But with Elia there is so little there. Rhaegar and Elia were apparently "fond" of one another but what does that actually mean? And how much did she buy into Rhaegar's notions of prophecy? Was she actually ambitious?

I wouldn't think ambition would have a whole lot to do with any objection that Elia would make to a polygamous marriage. What she would be worrying about is the safety of her own children. Yes, Rhaegar could swear to her with the best will in the world that Aegon would stay the Crown Prince, but he'd be putting a half-sibling in line to the throne just behind Aegon (bumping Rhaenys back a place if it's a boy)...a half-sibling with a powerful and ambitious grandfather, to whom it might just occur that a tragic case of crib-death happening to Aegon would put his own grandson on the throne. Or he could sponsor with money and troops an open war for power for that grandson's claim. Rhaegar isn't politically interested, or adept - he might not be able to head off such a conflict.

If even full brothers can fight to the death for the throne...how much more likely is it that half-siblings with different loyalties to different powerful and rivalling Lords Paramount might come to blows over power? I can imagine that if Rhaegar started telling Elia how it was NECESSARY that he take a second wife, Elia would gasp in exasperated dread, "Why can't you just take a mistress like every other husband in Dorne?"

I also wish we knew more about Elia. She was said to be witty - so I'd like to hear at least one specimen of her humor on how she was dealing with life at KL with her dreamy impractical husband and her paranoid, twitchy father-in-law the absolute monarch and pyromaniac.

[Shinjuku Thief]

But as for Rhetorical Ned actually does not need Answers, he already knows they were not the Trident, at KL, at Storms End or on Dragonstone. If he wants to illicit information on where they are he can ask them at this point cause they are standing in front of him. It's kind of obvious at this point they have been at the Tower because now they have been found. The other statements have Ned not finding them and now he has found them. Kind of pointless to ask 4 rhetorical questions in a row on where they were, when it appears he has figured it out, you were here.

Unless Ned was using that line of questioning to determine where their allegiances lay? (Particularly in regards to whomever was in the tower behind them).