R+L=J v.91

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yes, I'm still not fully convinced about Ashara being the informant. Too many unanswered questions. However, if it ends up that Ashara did inform Ned and as a consequence her brother died, it explains her taking her own life. It all ends up being so tragic.

Right. That is the part that keeps me thinking it might be Ashara as the information--the tragedy of causing her brother's death. I am just very confused on this point and cannot make up my mind.

[WhiteOwl18]

So, just wondering...who thinks Jon is legitimate and who thinks he's a bastard?

I'm very much convinced that he is legitimate.

[Ser Creighton]

Did he really not know or was that rhetorical?

Well why would he be looking for them if it was Rhetorical. Nothing is in the form of a question, even in dialogue. You don't need a question mark but it does need to be in the form of a question. I thought you went to Dragonstone. Not a question, it's a statement, it's a clear statement. He does not appear to have been told they were with her, which seems really odd.

It seems odd that whoever told him she was there didn't mention those 3. But his knowledge of where she was came after he relieved Storms end no question. His final thought on where they were was Dragonstone. Yet there they stood.

But as for Rhetorical Ned actually does not need Answers, he already knows they were not the Trident, at KL, at Storms End or on Dragonstone. If he wants to illicit information on where they are he can ask them at this point cause they are standing in front of him. It's kind of obvious at this point they have been at the Tower because now they have been found. The other statements have Ned not finding them and now he has found them. Kind of pointless to ask 4 rhetorical questions in a row on where they were, when it appears he has figured it out, you were here.

[BearQueen87]

Can anyone make an educated guess as to when Ashara would have gone to Storm's End? Is it possible she was there when/if Arthur escorted Rhaegar to SE before he went on to KL? Could she have known for that long...?

[honeyed chicken]

They know that Jon is Rhaegar's heir and after his father's and brother's death is the King of Westeros.

He's not King of Westeros.

True, Mace Tyrell was still in the field at the time of the coronation, but his surrender was a formality, he knew it was over before Ned showed up. Dragonstone was the Targaryen home seat - of course it held out.

The Targs became kings in the first place because they had dragons - in other words, they took Westeros by force and established the IT with the heat of dragon's breath. It was all about power, not lineage. Robert took the IT away from the Targs in the manner they themselves established - with force.

Since the KG vow is to the king and kingdom of Westeros, not to the Targaryens specifically, those 3 KG should have bent the knee.

GRRM still has not given us the real reason why they did not (imo).

And this doesn't mean Jon isn't the legit Targ heir. He may well be - which makes him rightful lord of Dragonstone . . .but nothing more.

[honeyed chicken]

Well why would he be looking for them if it was Rhetorical. Nothing is in the form of a question, even in dialogue. You don't need a question mark but it does need to be in the form of a question. I thought you went to Dragonstone. Not a question, it's a statement, it's a clear statement. He does not appear to have been told they were with her, which seems really odd.

It seems odd that whoever told him she was there didn't mention those 3. But his knowledge of where she was came after he relieved Storms end no question. His final thought on where they were was Dragonstone. Yet there they stood.

But as for Rhetorical Ned actually does not need Answers, he already knows they were not the Trident, at KL, at Storms End or on Dragonstone. If he wants to illicit information on where they are he can ask them at this point cause they are standing in front of him. It's kind of obvious at this point they have been at the Tower because now they have been found. The other statements have Ned not finding them and now he has found them. Kind of pointless to ask 4 rhetorical questions in a row on where they were, when it appears he has figured it out, you were here.

He wasn't looking for the KG - he was looking for Lyanna.

His questions were meant to say, "You should not be here any longer. The war is over and there's a new king. And that's my sister in there - she needs me (hear her calling my name?)."

[teej6]

No I get that, but how would Ashara not know about the sack considering Ned clearly states he thought they were at Storms End and then thought they might have left to Dragonstone.

It would also mean someone outside of Ashara filled in the KG on everything. How could she have gotten to the TOJ before Ned and why would she race there to tell them what has been happening right after she tells Ned where Lyanna is and why is Ned surprised to find them if he new they were there from Ashara?

I get what the KG seem to be saying to Ned after he brings up Dragonstone. It's just Neds info seems very different from there info. Which is basically I did not expect to find you here? And then they sort of indicate to him why they are there. Then they fight.

Ashara being the informant to Ned I understand it goes back to something Martin said. People were trying to figure out how Ned knew where to go. Glover was another line of thought. But Glover doesn't explain why Ned is looking for them at Storms End, he also takes Ethan with him when he leaves KL which is a bit odd considering he has been in a black cell for months. I mean if Rhaegar told Ethan about Lyanna the KG was a rather large omission Ned would not be at Storms End going why are they not here, they must have gone to Dragonstone?

I think what Ygrain meant was that there was a lag between when the 3 KG found out about the Trident and the sack causing them to change course and not want Ned & Co to reach Jon. Ashara may well have had all the info but not the Kingsguard. And as you said they may have received info about the sack from another source. I'm still not totally convinced about Ashara being the informant. There could be other hidden forces at play. For example, Brandon's reaction always struck me as rather odd. But then again, all the events starting from Lyanna's elopement could turn out to be instances of poor judgement, terrible misunderstandings, and rotten fate for a lot of decent folk. Won't that be tragic?

[BearQueen87]

He's not King of Westeros.

True, Mace Tyrell was still in the field at the time of the coronation, but his surrender was a formality, he knew it was over before Ned showed up. Dragonstone was the Targaryen home seat - of course it held out.

The Targs became kings in the first place because they had dragons - in other words, they took Westeros by force and established the IT with the heat of dragon's breath. It was all about power, not lineage. Robert took the IT away from the Targs in the manner they themselves established - with force.

Since the KG vow is to the king and kingdom of Westeros, not to the Targaryens specifically, those 3 KG should have bent the knee.

GRRM still has not given us the real reason why they did not (imo).

And this doesn't mean Jon isn't the legit Targ heir. He may well be - which makes him rightful lord of Dragonstone . . .but nothing more.

But this is part of Aerys' dynasty. They serve the king and his dynasty; Robert is not part of that--except distantly

And to get picky (I guess) Robert is claiming the throne based on his own Targaryen ancestry, meaning that the 7 kingdoms are still under "Targaryen" rule--which means that Robert really did take Jon's place.

[Lonin]

So, just wondering...who thinks Jon is legitimate and who thinks he's a bastard?

Legitimate. almost positive, 99.9.

Although, I find many of the Ashara Dayne theories related to the ToJ to be embellished far beyond what the text supports.

Here is map for reference. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/3/3e/The_south_Adwd_map.jpg

ToJ was an abandoned guard tower in The Princess Pass , with several close by forts.

edit: removed the reference to 'fan fiction' which seemed to be interpreted as much more pejorative than I meant.

[stateofdissipation]

He's not King of Westeros.

True, Mace Tyrell was still in the field at the time of the coronation, but his surrender was a formality, he knew it was over before Ned showed up. Dragonstone was the Targaryen home seat - of course it held out.

The Targs became kings in the first place because they had dragons - in other words, they took Westeros by force and established the IT with the heat of dragon's breath. It was all about power, not lineage. Robert took the IT away from the Targs in the manner they themselves established - with force.

Since the KG vow is to the king and kingdom of Westeros, not to the Targaryens specifically, those 3 KG should have bent the knee.

GRRM still has not given us the real reason why they did not (imo).

And this doesn't mean Jon isn't the legit Targ heir. He may well be - which makes him rightful lord of Dragonstone . . .but nothing more.

The rite for making a new member of the White Swords can vary. In common there seems to be the fact that it is a solemn and formal event, in which the knight kneels as he makes his vows before the kings, and that he receives the white cloak of the Kingsguard from the Hand of the king or the Lord Commander himself (I: 526. II: 520)

Though court protocol suggests many must bend the knee when the king or queen enter a place, the Kingsguard do not do so, standing guard as is their duty (IV: 349)http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/2.1.3.2./

They also don't kneel after being made kingsguard. The kingsguard had not kneeled since taking their vows and receiving their white cloaks.---Our knees don't bend so easily... is accurate and pretty much absolute.

[Arlan of Pennytree]

Do sheets stained in blood need the blood to be fresh in order to smell of blood?

Yes blood only smells like blood when it is fresh.

After that it smells like roadkill.

How fresh must the blood be to still smell of blood?

What is the temperature, humidity, wind speed,and volume of the blood?

What is the white blood cell count and was this the blood of an anemic or hemophiliac?

How many hours, and to 4 decimal points please.

Provide the information I requested from the text and I will give you hours to 4 decimal places... and the air speed velocity of an unladen african swallow.

Dried blood DOES NOT smell like rotting flesh! Give up state. . .

[Ser Duncan the Small]

99.9% sure Jon is Targaryen. If not trueborn then at very least bastard born. Also a firm believer he is the Prince That Was Promised. There is no 100% evidence for this though. No one is wrong either way right now, but my theory is he is secretly a Dragon

[Ser Creighton]

He wasn't looking for the KG - he was looking for Lyanna.

His questions were meant to say, "You should not be here any longer. The war is over and there's a new king. And that's my sister in there - she needs me (hear her calling my name?)."

No he was looking for the KG, why would he think Lyanna would be at the trident? All 4 statements contradict the fact that Ned new they were together. His final statement says it, I thought you went to Dragonstone with your queen and prince. Now if he thought they were together why would he think Lyanna was at the Battle Trident, and the siege of Storms End? I thought you might have gone to Dragonstone. He thought she was on Dragonstone so he went to the Tower of Joy. No it's clearly about the looking KG. I am sure he was looking for them for a reason. But he didn't think they were together or he would not have been looking for them where he did. He clearly new Rhaegar wasn't with her, so it's not hard to assume that he didn't think the KG were with her anymore either.

How in any way is the subtext of him saying I looked for you here, here, and here, and thought you went to Dragonstone = my sister needs me hear her calling my name, you should leave. His name is not even being called. If she was screaming for him I doubt he stops to have a conversation. Or doesn't call back to her. It's a dream I don't think he is making a lot of this up.

[BearQueen87]

99.9% sure Jon is Targaryen. If not trueborn then at very least bastard born. Also a firm believer he is the Prince That Was Promised. There is no 100% evidence for this though. No one is wrong either way right now, but my theory is he is secretly a Dragon

Welcome to the forums! And the never ending fun that is R+L = J

[Ygrain]

The Targs became kings in the first place because they had dragons - in other words, they took Westeros by force and established the IT with the heat of dragon's breath. It was all about power, not lineage. Robert took the IT away from the Targs in the manner they themselves established - with force.

Since the KG vow is to the king and kingdom of Westeros, not to the Targaryens specifically, those 3 KG should have bent the knee.

This is a pretty unbased assumption, contradicting the way the Westerosi society is depicted.

- Oh, and if you're ignoring what I'm saying, remove me from your friend list, I'm not going to do it for you.

Although, I find many of the Ashara Dayne theories related to the ToJ to be almost fanfiction.

I never claimed I had any textual evidence :-)

I was merely proposing what I consider to be a plausible scenario which might fit with the pieces of information we have.

[Ygrain]

Welcome to the forums! And the never ending fun that is R+L = J

BTW, when is v. 92 starting, tomorrw?

[BearQueen87]

BTW, when is v. 92 starting, tomorrw?

Oh ye of little faith. It'll be up before the day is done in America. ;)

[stateofdissipation]

No he was looking for the KG, why would he think Lyanna would be at the trident? All 4 statements contradict the fact that Ned new they were together. His final statement says it, I thought you went to Dragonstone with your queen and prince. Now if he thought they were together why would he think Lyanna was at the Battle Trident, and the siege of Storms End? I thought you might have gone to Dragonstone. He thought she was on Dragonstone so he went to the Tower of Joy. No it's clearly about the looking KG. I am sure he was looking for them for a reason. But he didn't think they were together or he would not have been looking for them where he did. He clearly new Rhaegar wasn't with her, so it's not hard to assume that he didn't think the KG were with her anymore either.

How in any way is the subtext of him saying I looked for you here, here, and here, and thought you went to Dragonstone = my sister needs me hear her calling my name, you should leave. His name is not even being called. If she was screaming for him I doubt he stops to have a conversation. Or doesn't call back to her. It's a dream I don't think he is making a lot of this up.

EDIT You are saying the same thing as the original poster.... only in the negative...your conclusion is basically the same

All 4 statements contradict the fact that Ned knew they(Lyanna and the KG) were together.

Now if he thought they were together why would he think Lyanna was why would he think (they would be) at the Battle Trident, (?)

I looked for you on the Trident=/=I expected to find you here with Lyanna

But he didn't think they (the KG and Lyanna) were together or he would not have been looking for them where he did.

I wondered where you were=/=I expected to find you here with Lyanna

Now if he thought they were together why would he think Lyanna was why would he think (they would be at) the siege of Storms End?

I was certain you would be among them.=/=I expected to find you here with Lyanna

His final statement says it, I thought you went to Dragonstone with your queen and prince

I thought you might have sailed with him.=/=I expected to find you here with Lyanna

He thought she was (the KG were) on Dragonstone so (and) he went to the Tower of Joy. (for Lyanna)

No it's clearly (not) about the looking (for) KG. (at the ToJ)

I am sure he was looking for them for a reason. (earlier)

He clearly new Rhaegar wasn't with her, so it's not hard to assume that he didn't think the KG were with her anymore either,

How in any way is the subtext of him saying I looked for you here, here, and here, and thought you went to Dragonstone = (=/=I expected to find you here)

my sister needs me hear her calling my name, (screaming--Poole called him Eddard.. Lya called him Ned) you (KG) should leave. (is another subtext)

I don't think he is making a lot of this up.

Lord Eddard is Poole waking Ned up.

[Ser Creighton]

I think what Ygrain meant was that there was a lag between when the 3 KG found out about the Trident and the sack causing them to change course and not want Ned & Co to reach Jon. Ashara may well have had all the info but not the Kingsguard. And as you said they may have received info about the sack from another source. I'm still not totally convinced about Ashara being the informant. There could be other hidden forces at play. For example, Brandon's reaction always struck me as rather odd. But then again, all the events starting from Lyanna's elopement could turn out to be instances of poor judgement, terrible misunderstandings, and rotten fate for a lot of decent folk. Won't that be tragic?

Why would they want Ned to reach Jon to begin with? Rhaegar went off to fight Ned and Company. Then Rhaegar got killed, then Ashara who would have had to have known about the Trident according to the idea, went to Ned but did not get to him until sometime after he relieved Storms End. Which means she was not at KL. He went there next and didn't know where they were, then he went to Storms End and looked some more and then thought oh they must be on Dragonstone with the Queen. That is what is written.

I understand why the KG is there, I understand what they are saying to Ned. It's just Ned is the one who in unclear on the matter. So by the time Ashara could of told Ned she herself would already know about what happened to Elia and the Kids. It appears they didn't know Ned was coming and Ned did not know they were there. And Ashara was not a go between because she can't have gotten there before Ned after telling Ned where they were and appearing to omit the KG or else Ned does not think Dragonstone. It does not appear he thought the KG were with her. He knows Rhaegar wasn't and if he is not with her why would he think the KG would be. It has to be 2 sources of information, either that or nobody new anything before the two met up and Ned is not finding the Tower or even thinking to look there without some help.

He isn't looking for the KG on battlefields if he thinks they are off at the Tower guarding her. Glover didn't tell him or he would not be looking for them at Storms End. If Ashara told him it is after Storms End, and she appears to not know the KG is there, and then someone had to be keeping the KG up to date and that is without Ravens as we know how they work. Which means riding back and fourth.

It could be the Ashara informed the KG about the sack and all that, but then she could not have informed Ned. Either way she only could of talked to one source as the information is clearly different. She can tell Ned but then has no time to beat him to the Tower of Joy, also has no point in going there unless she wanted to start trouble. Or why not just ride with him to there it would be a hell of a lot safer and she could easily act as a mediator between the two sides. Either Ned got information from someone else or the KG did. Which means someone else would know about Lyanna and the Tower. Martin is not the type to say information was falling from the sky at a secret hideout. He always says he wants it to be believable and to make sense.

[Ser Creighton]

All 4 statements contradict the fact that Ned knew they(Lyanna and the KG) were together.

Now if he thought they were together why would he think Lyanna was why would he think (they would be) at the Battle Trident, (?)

I looked for you on the Trident=/=I expected to find you here with Lyanna

But he didn't think they (the KG and Lyanna) were together or he would not have been looking for them where he did.

I wondered where you were=/=I expected to find you here with Lyanna

Now if he thought they were together why would he think Lyanna was why would he think (they would be at) the siege of Storms End?

I was certain you would be among them.=/=I expected to find you here with Lyanna

His final statement says it, I thought you went to Dragonstone with your queen and prince

I thought you might have sailed with him.=/=I expected to find you here with Lyanna

He thought she was (the KG were) on Dragonstone so (and) he went to the Tower of Joy. (for Lyanna)

No it's clearly (not) about the looking (for) KG. (at the ToJ)

I am sure he was looking for them for a reason. (earlier)

He clearly new Rhaegar wasn't with her, so it's not hard to assume that he didn't think the KG were with her anymore either,

How in any way is the subtext of him saying I looked for you here, here, and here, and thought you went to Dragonstone = (=/=I expected to find you here)

my sister needs me hear her calling my name, (screaming--Poole called him Eddard.. Lya called him Ned) you (KG) should leave. (is another subtext)

I don't think he is making a lot of this up.

Lord Eddard is Poole waking Ned up.

What?