R+L=J v.91

[Arlan of Pennytree]

Yeah but I'm taking into account the time delay necessary for the news to reach ToJ. Also, the news of the Sack might have arrived shortly after the news of the Trident but if the message to Ned had already been dispatched, there was no way to take it back.

ETA: It would also be a motive for Ashara's suicide - her mission brought about her brother's death.

You may be on to something here. . .

[stateofdissipation]

Dried blood DOES NOT smell like rotting flesh! Give up state. . .

Dried milk does not smell like rotten milk either....as a drop. A liter of milk dried smells like rotten milk.

Dried blood does not smell like rotted flesh...as a drop. A liter of dried blood smells like rotting flesh.

A liter of blood weighs 1.0680 kg that is roughly 2.2 pounds of rotting cells...

Go take 2 pounds of meat out of your fridge, set it on your counter until it dries... and then come back and tell how much it does not smell.

[UnmaskedLurker]

He's not King of Westeros.

True, Mace Tyrell was still in the field at the time of the coronation, but his surrender was a formality, he knew it was over before Ned showed up. Dragonstone was the Targaryen home seat - of course it held out.

The Targs became kings in the first place because they had dragons - in other words, they took Westeros by force and established the IT with the heat of dragon's breath. It was all about power, not lineage. Robert took the IT away from the Targs in the manner they themselves established - with force.

Since the KG vow is to the king and kingdom of Westeros, not to the Targaryens specifically, those 3 KG should have bent the knee.

GRRM still has not given us the real reason why they did not (imo).

And this doesn't mean Jon isn't the legit Targ heir. He may well be - which makes him rightful lord of Dragonstone . . .but nothing more.

It does not matter what criteria you would use to determine who is king. What matters in what criteria the KG would use. The KG answer your question when they talk to Ned. They call Robert a Usurper. They say that their knees do not bend easily. They are answering your question. They swore a vow to defend the Targaryen dynasty as the true dynasty in Westeros. The result of one battle and death of one king does not change their view of which dynasty is entitled to have the king. Robert can be crowned, but the three KG say he is a Usurper and not king. You may think Robert earned the title by right of conquest, the KG are telling Ned that they don't see the world that way. Aegon I built the kingdom--he did not conquer an already existing kingdom, so the KG do not necessarily see Robert having the same right as Aegon to take over by conquest. The KG may believe that they will re-build forces and take the throne back for the rightful king--which is what I suspect they thought at the time. GRRM has given us the real reason for the KGs' actions--this explanation is the real reason. It makes sense to a lot of people, and I expect it makes sense to GRRM, even if it does not make sense to you.

[BearQueen87]

Dried milk does not smell like rotten milk either....as a drop. A liter of milk dried smells like rotten milk.

Dried blood does not smell like rotted flesh...as a drop. A liter of dried blood smells like rotting flesh.

A liter of blood weighs 1.0680 kg that is roughly 2.2 pounds of rotting cells...

Go take 2 pounds of meat out of your fridge, set it on your counter until it dries... and then come back and tell how much it does not smell.

And the award for strangest post in v.91 of R+L = J goes to.....

[BearQueen87]

It does not matter what criteria you would use to determine who is king. What matters in what criteria the KG would use. The KG answer your question when they talk to Ned. They call Robert a Usurper. They say that their knees do not bend easily. They are answering your question. They swore a vow to defend the Targaryen dynasty as the true dynasty in Westeros. The result of one battle and death of one king does not change their view of which dynasty is entitled to have the king. Robert can be crowned, but the three KG say he is a Usurper and not king. You may think Robert earned the title by right of conquest, the KG are telling Ned that they don't see the world that way. Aegon I built the kingdom--he did not conquer an already existing kingdom, so the KG do not necessarily see Robert having the same right as Aegon to take over by conquest. The KG may believe that they will re-build forces and take the throne back for the rightful king--which is what I suspect they thought at the time. GRRM has given us the real reason for the KGs' actions--this explanation is the real reason. It makes sense to a lot of people, and I expect it makes sense to GRRM, even if it does not make sense to you.

And like I said, Robert is taking the throne (not Arryn or Ned or anyone else) based on his own Targaryen ancestry. Meaning that the "Targaryen as rulers" is the criteria for both the Kingdom and the KG. The difference is that the KG know that there is a half-Targareyn heir closer to the throne than Robert. The kingdom and the KG are not actually in a disagreement over a Targaryen heir sitting the throne.

[Lonin]

Chekhov's gun says that these must be essential to the story... Hypothesis-- Rhaegar put Elia aside for Lyanna.

I disagree, the text disagrees as well, from Jaime's dream..

"Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”

Martin, George R.R. (2011-03-22). A Game of Thrones 4-Book Bundle: A Song of Ice and Fire Series: A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, and A Feast for Crows (Song of Ice & Fire) (Kindle Locations 39948-39949). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition."

Had grrm wanted to pull that trigger, he would have phrased it differently.

[Ser Creighton]

Legitimate. almost positive, 99.9.Although, I find many of the Ashara Dayne theories related to the ToJ to be almost fanfiction.Here is map for reference. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/3/3e/The_south_Adwd_map.jpgToJ was an abandoned guard tower in The Princess Pass , with several close by forts.

I am not big on calling an idea Fanfic, it's not done to try to make something up but rather to fill in the blank. When I wrote about Stannis and Lyanna meeting at Harrenhal that was fanfic, though done only as a joke.

[Ser Creighton]

Oh ye of little faith. It'll be up before the day is done in America. ;)

Well lucky me I managed to get some posts in on 91 woo hoo.

[UnmaskedLurker]

And like I said, Robert is taking the throne (not Arryn or Ned or anyone else) based on his own Targaryen ancestry. Meaning that the "Targaryen as rulers" is the criteria for both the Kingdom and the KG. The difference is that the KG know that there is a half-Targareyn heir closer to the throne than Robert. The kingdom and the KG are not actually in a disagreement over a Targaryen heir sitting the throne.

I don't think that is quite right. While I agree that Robert being the next in line after eliminating Aerys's line is important to putting him on the throne. So having a Targ grandmother made his coronation more valid in the view of Westeros than otherwise might have been the case. But I think that the point of the war was that the rebels basically were claiming that Aerys made his entire line illegitimate--which is why Veserys is not called back from Dragonstone to be king. So Jon would not have been accepted as king (as Ned knows, which is why he keeps his existence a secret). So the "right of conquest" issue still arises in terms of whether the Aerys "branch" of the Targ dynasty was truly invalidated based on the war.

[Alauda]

My far fetched theory on the topic is that Lyanna is lying wounded on the bed of blood having fought against her lovers enemies and Roberts Army. Jon was born earlier. Lyanna donned her Knight of the Laughing Tree armor and fought alongside the King's Guard to defend the Tower of Joy. She kills a couple of attackers and suddenly confronts Ned and hesitates. She is mortally wounded by one of Neds Companions and retreats into the citadel. Ned finds her bleeding to death in her Room near Jon's crib. "Promise Me Ned"..........

[BearQueen87]

Well lucky me I managed to get some posts in on 91 woo hoo.

Little things in life, eh?

I don't think that is quite right. While I agree that Robert being the next in line after eliminating Aerys's line is important to putting him on the throne. So having a Targ grandmother made his coronation more valid in the view of Westeros than otherwise might have been the case. But I think that the point of the war was that the rebels basically were claiming that Aerys made his entire line illegitimate--which is why Veserys is not called back from Dragonstone to be king. So Jon would not have been accepted as king (as Ned knows, which is why he keeps his existence a secret). So the "right of conquest" issue still arises in terms of whether the Aerys "branch" of the Targ dynasty was truly invalidated based on the war.

Yeah I suppose so.

[BearQueen87]

My far fetched theory on the topic is that Lyanna is lying wounded on the bed of blood having fought against her lovers enemies and Roberts Army. Jon was born earlier. Lyanna donned her Knight of the Laughing Tree armor and fought alongside the King's Guard to defend the Tower of Joy. She kills a couple of attackers and suddenly confronts Ned and hesitates. She is mortally wounded by one of Neds Companions and retreats into the citadel. Ned finds her bleeding to death in her Room near Jon's crib. "Promise Me Ned"..........

Well that is certainly one I haven't heard before.

[Ser Creighton]

And the award for strangest post in v.91 of R+L = J goes to.....

Can we stop trying to smell gross things and focus on the thread. I am waiting for someone to tell me the difference between what dried dog shit smells like and fresh dogs shit smells like. I am guessing it smells like shit either way, and I am not sure Martin went around asking to smell the various stages of decomposing blood, milk, meat and shit. It's just a thought though.

Oh this dogs fecal matter has an interesting bokeh, I detect a hint of smoke, and is that plum? A bit of a nutty aroma, and yes yes I am sure of it now, I smell shit, yes this is clearly shit.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I disagree, the text disagrees as well, from Jaime's dream..

"Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”

Had grrm wanted to pull that trigger, he would have phrased it differently.

But that's because Jaime doesn't know more than we do. And, even if he put Elia aside, he wouldn't want her or his children dead.

I don't think he did it, but that text indicates nothing.

[stateofdissipation]

I disagree, the text disagrees as well, from Jaime's dream..

"Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”

Martin, George R.R. (2011-03-22). A Game of Thrones 4-Book Bundle: A Song of Ice and Fire Series: A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, and A Feast for Crows (Song of Ice & Fire) (Kindle Locations 39948-39949). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition."

Had grrm wanted to pull that trigger, he would have phrased it differently.

I disagree, the text disagrees as well, from Jaime's dream..

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”

Martin, George R.R. (2011-03-22). A Game of Thrones 4-Book Bundle: A Song of Ice and Fire Series: A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, and A Feast for Crows (Song of Ice & Fire) (Kindle Locations 39948-39949). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition."

Had grrm wanted to pull that trigger, he would have phrased it differently.

Jaime's dream..

Our dreams are not always literal.--- GRRM http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Concerning_the_Tower_of_Joy

Congrats.. you have shown that Jamie believed that Rhaegar was still married to Elia.

---Unless you are asserting that Rhaegar appeared to Jamie in a dream to assert his marital status.... That would be asserting something showing something completely different

A word in a dream... must be essential to the story.... Chekhov's gun

"Wife" is essential to the story, The story of Jamie's redemption. It clearly shows that he had no part of the murders of Elia and her children... KABOOM.. gun went off

Rhaegar in Jamie's dream using terms Jamie would use is hardly shocking. Rhaegar revealing something that Jamie did not know would be,

[Ser Creighton]

But that's because Jaime doesn't know more than we do. And, even if he put Elia aside, he wouldn't want her or his children dead.

I don't think he did it, but that text indicates nothing.

I think they had the whole weirwood stump thing going with that dream awhile back but I don't remember it all that well. Though it does prove one thing, after Rhaegar' return to KL and up until the time he left for the trident, Lyanna did not appear to be a topic floating around and Jaime still thought they were married after he came back. But mostly I read a lot of it as Jaime' guilt because he didn't guard them and the choice he made about succession.

[Arlan of Pennytree]

1) The KG were put at the toj while Aerys was very much alive and can only have been there on his command.

2) When Ned and his companions confronted the KG at the toj, any baby inside would not be the king because Robert had taken the thrown and been coronated at that point. The KG can and do only serve one king - the one who sits the IT. During the battle of the 5 kings they don't run to Stannis' side because he has the better claim - they stay with Joffrey because he's the one on the actual throne. Once GH and co. die, the remaining KG don't run to the toj to take their place. Barristan Selmy had some doubts later, but at the time he acknowledged Robert as king.

So the KG at the toj were protecting the Targaryen heir, not the king. (and I'm going with Ned's dream as my guide to believing that they knew as much).

1), Wasn't LC Hightower ordered to remain @ ToJ by Rhaegar? I think he was.

2) These 3 KG were loyal to house Targaryen, and the true king of Westeros, not the traitor and usurper Baratheon. Furthermore, a son comes before a brother, and even Selmy stayed w/Joffery, believing him to be the trueborn son of Robert. It would have been seen as treason to support Stannis's claim, and rightly so.

[Alia of the knife]

I disagree, the text disagrees as well, from Jaime's dream..

"Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. I left my wife and children in your hands.

Martin, George R.R. (2011-03-22). A Game of Thrones 4-Book Bundle: A Song of Ice and Fire Series: A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, and A Feast for Crows (Song of Ice & Fire) (Kindle Locations 39948-39949). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition."

Had grrm wanted to pull that trigger, he would have phrased it differently.

I always took that dream as a reflection of his overall guilt as he doesn't seem to be aware of any details.

It's somewhat similar to Neds dreaming.

We see later that Cersei in her conversation with Jaime fears being put aside, and I wonder where she might have gotten that notion?

I don't doubt that he was married to both women, and there is nothing saying he couldn't reinstate polygamy, but what the long term plans were, who knows?

I honestly don't know why Elia would be expected to be "okay" with this unless her only goal in life was to be Queen.

It seems cold comfort in watching your husband everyday with the wife he does love, and at least from the show, it seems Elia wasn't indifferent.

[Arlan of Pennytree]

Dried milk does not smell like rotten milk either....as a drop. A liter of milk dried smells like rotten milk.

Dried blood does not smell like rotted flesh...as a drop. A liter of dried blood smells like rotting flesh.

A liter of blood weighs 1.0680 kg that is roughly 2.2 pounds of rotting cells...

Go take 2 pounds of meat out of your fridge, set it on your counter until it dries... and then come back and tell how much it does not smell.

I know the following isn't very tasteful, but I'm going to go there to prove a point.

Dried blood smells nothing like decomposing flesh, it has a sweet-ish metallic smell, somewhat like fresh blood. You are making assumptions you know nothing about (obviously), or are deliberately making false statements in an attempt to prove your viewpoint. Which makes me wonder about every other argument you've made here.

[BearQueen87]

I honestly don't know why Elia would be expected to be "okay" with this unless her only goal in life was to be Queen.

It seems cold comfort in watching your husband everyday with the wife he does love, and at least from the show, it seems Elia wasn't indifferent.

If Elia was okay with everything, I think it was because Rhaegar explained everything. We know so little about Elia of Drone. It's...odd. We have Ned and others thoughts about Lyanna; Ned and others thoughts about Rhaegar. But with Elia there is so little there. Rhaegar and Elia were apparently "fond" of one another but what does that actually mean? And how much did she buy into Rhaegar's notions of prophecy? Was she actually ambitious?