Why does everyone hate the Lannisters?

[Rorey Targaryen]

Well:

1. People hate how ruthless Tywin is and how he treats Tyrion.

2. Jaimie crippled Bran.

3. Cersei; "hateful woman" (Jaimie's words, not mine), incompetent ruler, and just a straight up bitch.

4. There's the few people who don't like Tyrion. You'll have to ask them why.

[Boarsbane]

War makes monsters of us all.

I agree that the Starks we get at the end will be very, very different, darker, harder to love. But a descent into madness is a story I can follow. They've been ravaged by war and turned into monsters.. and though I might call upon the hounds of hell for this statement, at least they didn't start out as monsters like the Lannisters.

Nice sweeping generalization. Not even all the Lannisters started out as monsters, Tywin was as much shaped by the events of his childhood as the Stark children are being, same for Jaime and Tyrion.

[Hodor's Dragon]

War makes monsters of us all.

I agree that the Starks we get at the end will be very, very different, darker, harder to love. But a descent into madness is a story I can follow. They've been ravaged by war and turned into monsters.. and though I might call upon the hounds of hell for this statement, at least they didn't start out as monsters like the Lannisters.

But it killed the Lannister monsters (except for Cersei).

Now we've got 2 sweet kids, Jaime who is clearly struggling to better himself, Tyrion who has gone the wrong way but not far enough to keep him from being the most popular character in the series, and only Cersei - vulnerable Cersei - still holding up that "Evil Pride" banner.

To me, one of the most interesting thing about the story is the way it starts out with the Starks on a pedestal and the Lannisters in a pit, but the altitude between the two families diminishes steadily. There's really not that much moral difference between the families now and what's left can disappear if some trends continue - or if Cersei dies.

[LordStoneheart]

But it killed the Lannister monsters (except for Cersei).

Now we've got 2 sweet kids, Jaime who is clearly struggling to better himself, Tyrion who has gone the wrong way but not far enough to keep him from being the most popular character in the series, and only Cersei - vulnerable Cersei - still holding up that "Evil Pride" banner.

To me, one of the most interesting thing about the story is the way it starts out with the Starks on a pedestal and the Lannisters in a pit, but the altitude between the two families diminishes steadily. There's really not that much moral difference between the families now and what's left can disappear if some trends continue - or if Cersei dies.

I wouldn't consider them on equal footing by now, because what the Starks went through was out of necessity but most of the main Lannister family were cruel because pride and entitlement.

Nice sweeping generalization. Not even all the Lannisters started out as monsters, Tywin was as much shaped by the events of his childhood as the Stark children are being, same for Jaime and Tyrion.

EEEEELLLLLLIIIIIAAAAA!

The things I do for love!

And what of my wrath, Lord Stark?

Ser Ilyn, bring me his head.

Yeah, sure, they didn't start out as monsters.

[Boarsbane]

I wouldn't consider them on equal footing by now, because what the Starks went through was out of necessity but most of the main Lannister family were cruel because pride and entitlement.

EEEEELLLLLLIIIIIAAAAA!

The things I do for love!

And what of my wrath, Lord Stark?

Ser Ilyn, bring me his head.

Yeah, sure, they didn't start out as monsters.

At the start of the novels some of them objectively are but they weren't born monsters, thing happened to them before the events of the books that made them this way. Even Joffrey had a fucked up childhood that helped make him a monster.

[Ghosts Lunch]

But that seems to be in the process of becoming less clear as the story goes along.

Clearly the Lannisters are less evil now. Joffrey and Tywin are dead, Jaime is on a redemption arc, and while Cersei has not reformed, she has been largely defanged. Also, she has gone through (and to some extent, is still in) an extremely traumatic process. The way I see it, one more heavy shock to Cersei (e.g., Myrcella dies) and she is a prime candidate for a nervous breakdown, which might lead to insanity but also possibly could lead to a dramatic character change - or to death.

On the other hand, at least some of the Starks are getting worse, and you could make an argument that they all are:

• Arya is clearly on a dark path;

LSH is pretty damned evil, in my book, and I won't dignify this crackpot theory with its own little black dot but I've long had the feeling that we could see RobbWind again, and it won't necessarily be in a pleasant context;

Rickon is a little beast with a wild wolf on a cannibal island - what to expect from Rickon? "Dark" ain't much of a stretch;

Sansa hasn't done anything wrong, but the "Darth Sansa" persona that the show is going with (a Sophie Turner interview in the news today says that Sansa will "use her sexuality" to manipulate LF this season) is conceivably down a dark path;

Bran has been an All-Around Good Kid - but now he's all mixed up with the COTF, who we must remember are the ancient enemies of Man;

Jon Snow has been a good guy, too, but one of the Jon Snow theories is that he is/will be The Great Other, and the ending of ADWD didn't shut that theory down. Certainly an undead Jon Snow in the future is not a farfetched idea.

So again, maybe it ain't so clear-cut any more. Maybe the Starks and Lannisters will even switch places between being The Good Guys and The Bad Guys by the end of the series. I would love that! (If it's done well.)

Yeah Arya is obviously a fan favourite but there has been premonitions about a darkness in her (Woods Witch with BwB) so while she is killing people "who deserve it" like the Tickler etc, she is moving on to people who "deserve it less", eg even in Harrenhall, one person is killed for telling an indecent story of mistreating a Tavern girl, he was killed instead of say Ser Gregor who was the actual instigator, then there is Weese who is killed for being essentially a hardass and abusive taskmaster. Not good but the punishment of death isn't quite proportionate

One big thing is what happens if she kills people merely for being an enemy, eg what if she kills Tommen for example? As the Faceless people say, they are purely objective and if they start killing out of judgement it is a slippery slope. The Lannisters are an enemy and Tommen is a figurehead but Tommen personally never hurt anyone. Similar to how Myrcella never hurt anyone but she is caught up in a Martell/Lannister tension caused by Aegon, Rhaenys and Elia being killed by Lannister bannermen

LS starts out with vengeance against Freys for the treachery of the Red Wedding and moved onto general outlaws, what happens with Jaimie and Brienne will speak volumes and there is an idea of slippery slope etc

Rickon has been a little wild from the start. Perhaps he is well suited to the Skagosans but it sounds like they may not be the best role models and he is at an influential age

Bran is a good kid, but obviously it needs to be remembered that the Old Gods are one of many rival god figures and naturally have their own agenda, and as we have seen, despite being initially understood as harmless trees with faces people pray too, there is an ancient blood sacrifice facet which presumably results in some power, similar to Melisandre burning people for R'hlorr

Sansa remains to be seen, it seems the show may be going its own direction slightly, or in an exagerrated sense. Whatever the degree I think she will become more politcally savvy

Jon will be interesting to take note of. I don't buy this idea of him as turning into some great other for a second but it remains to be seen what influence Val and Melisandre and Wildling culture generally have on him

Fwiw I am a Stark fan because they relate most closely to familial heritage (northern Enlgland) but the themes can be seen and their characters will be distorted by their experience. I don't think they will be some cartoonishly "bad force" though

The Starks obviously have a history of generally ruling with honour and respect etc which is why despite having fallen the northern Lords in their own seperate ways are automously planning to put them back in power in the North out of love for their family despite the deep risks involved. This is an interesting contrast to the Lannisters who under Tywin ruled through fear and didn't care for love of the masses, which has its merits in the short term but doesen't necassarily help them long term as they won't have many friends when times are tough on the house

I think the Stark/Lannister fortunes are a good theme in exploring the ultimate fruits of different modes of rulership

Concerning the Lannisters, my impression is that Tyrion has always been the "legitimate and honourable" face, even though he is becoming angry and Jaimies experience are driving him to become more powerful

[The Wolves]

At the start of the novels some of them objectively are but they weren't born monsters, thing happened to them before the events of the books that made them this way. Even Joffrey had a fucked up childhood that helped make him a monster.

The Lannisters went through nothing to that extent that would shape them into the horrible monsters we are introduced.

None of them have anything in their background that explains the evilness that they do.

[LordStoneheart]

At the start of the novels some of them objectively are but they weren't born monsters, thing happened to them before the events of the books that made them this way. Even Joffrey had a fucked up childhood that helped make him a monster.

he did have a rough childhood, didn't he? maybe his parents and uncle also did, being raised by Tywin... and Tywin couldn't have had it good with his weak father... It really does make sense now that you point it out. It was the circumstances that made them the way they were... Hey, you know who else had a rough childhood? Ed Gein. Doesn't make him eating people any better nor him any less of a monster.

And it certainly doesn't make the body count of the war these people caused any lower.

[Aemond's Eye]

Not sure if what GRRM has said on this before matters here or not, but in case it does...

Interviewer: I don't know if somebody like Jaime or Cersei can be redeemed. Cersei's a great character – she's like Lady Macbeth.

GRRM: Well, redeemed in whose eyes? She'll never be redeemed in the eyes of some. She's a character who's very protective of her children. You can argue, well, does she genuinely love her children, or does she just love them because they're her children? There's certainly a great level of narcissism in Cersei. She has an almost sociopathic view of the world and civilization. At the same time, what Jaime did is interesting. I don't have any kids myself, but I've talked with other people who have. Remember, Jaime isn't just trying to kill Bran because he's an annoying little kid. Bran has seen something that is basically a death sentence for Jaime, for Cersei, and their children – their three actual children. So I've asked people who do have children, "Well, what would you do in Jaime's situation?" They say, "Well, I'm not a bad guy – I wouldn't kill." Are you sure? Never? If Bran tells King Robert he's going to kill you and your sister-lover, and your three children. . . .

Then many of them hesitate. Probably more people than not would say, "Yeah, I would kill someone else's child to save my own child, even if that other child was innocent." These are the difficult decisions people make, and they're worth examining.

If GRRM had intended for Jaime to come across as being paternal towards those kids prior to his experiences as a captive and time apart from Cersei, it didn't really come across as anything close to that, for me at least, when reading it. Even after Joffrey's death he doesn't seem to consider him his son, though he does begin to think of Tommen and Myrcella as his children.

[Boarsbane]

he did have a rough childhood, didn't he? maybe his parents and uncle also did, being raised by Tywin... and Tywin couldn't have had it good with his weak father... It really does make sense now that you point it out. It was the circumstances that made them the way they were... Hey, you know who else had a rough childhood? Ed Gein. Doesn't make him eating people any better nor him any less of a monster.

And it certainly doesn't make the body count of the war these people caused any lower.

Yes, Tywin's childhood did play a large role in the man he became, if you could take your hate blinders off for 2 seconds you could see that. There were a bunch of people who helped cause this war, you just went of on a tangent a few pages ago how it was everyone but Cat's fault so don't go trying to put it all on Tywin again. All the problems in Westeros and the free world are Tywin's fault it seems.

[Fat Mac]

The Lannisters went through nothing to that extent that would shape them into the horrible monsters we are introduced.

None of them have anything in their background that explains the evilness that they do.

You must have missed where Jaime witnessed a madman rape his wife, burn people alive, threaten to burn down an entire city, and demand the head of Jaime's father (all while Jaime was what- 16?)

Or where Tyrion saw a girl he loved get raped by an entire squad of guards (at 13), and the lifetime of abuse he suffered

[LordStoneheart]

Yes, Tywin's childhood did play a large role in the man he became, if you could take your hate blinders off for 2 seconds you could see that. There were a bunch of people who helped cause this war, you just went of on a tangent a few pages ago how it was everyone but Cat's fault so don't go trying to put it all on Tywin again. All the problems in Westeros and the free world are Tywin's fault it seems.

No, just now I was calling out the bullshit childhood excuse. Having a rough childhood does not make later actions any better or worse. Sure, sympathy, but my sympathies only go so far when the people in question are causing needless bloodshed and destruction. First off, Tywin's childhood was not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. His dad was ineffective and laughed at. That does not give Tywin an excuse to later kill any and all in his path when challenged. Cersei and Jaime had it bad. That does not give them the excuse to fuck around behind their king's back and intentionally deny him heirs and willfully create the risk and need for a succession crisis. Tyrion being forced to watch and endure gangrape does not excuse him from later raping a slave. (Dare I ask what childhood excuse gets Tywin sympathy for ordering gang rape?)

It is ridiculous to think that the majority of problems the seven kingdom's face aren't on the shoulders of the Lannisters. Sure, there are others, but guess who deserves the biggest share? The Lion's share, if you will.

[The Wolves]

You must have missed where Jaime witnessed a madman rape his wife, burn people alive, threaten to burn down an entire city, and demand the head of Jaime's father (all while Jaime was what- 16?)

Or where Tyrion saw a girl he loved get raped by an entire squad of guards (at 13), and the lifetime of abuse he suffered

I didn't miss it I just don't get how it contributes to them being such evil people.

Many people have horrible backgrounds they still turn out to be good people, the Lannisters displays an inability to even empathize with anyone.

The Martells and the Starks suffered also with Elia and her babies also Ned losing half his family in one war yet they all still at the end showed good qualities and didn't abuse their power.

[Boarsbane]

No, just now I was calling out the bullshit childhood excuse. Having a rough childhood does not make later actions any better or worse. Sure, sympathy, but my sympathies only go so far when the people in question are causing needless bloodshed and destruction. First off, Tywin's childhood was not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. His dad was ineffective and laughed at. That does not give Tywin an excuse to later kill any and all in his path when challenged. Cersei and Jaime had it bad. That does not give them the excuse to fuck around behind their king's back and intentionally deny him heirs and willfully create the risk and need for a succession crisis. Tyrion being forced to watch and endure gangrape does not excuse him from later raping a slave. (Dare I ask what childhood excuse gets Tywin sympathy for ordering gang rape?)

It is ridiculous to think that the majority of problems the seven kingdom's face aren't on the shoulders of the Lannisters. Sure, there are others, but guess who deserves the biggest share? The Lion's share, if you will.

On the shoulders of Cersei and Jaime, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize this isn't what the head of House Lannister, or any other member, wanted them to do. They acted out of their own selfish desires and Tywin ended up having to clean up their mess.

I didn't see their childhoods excused anything, I said it helped shape them into the people they became, they didn't start out how they are when we first see them, so please quit trying to twist what I am saying into something else.

[Jasta11]

At the start of the novels some of them objectively are but they weren't born monsters, thing happened to them before the events of the books that made them this way. Even Joffrey had a fucked up childhood that helped make him a monster.

Hmm, the Lannisters didn't suffer like the Starks did, seeing their family torn apart, backstabbed and murdered bit by bit, as well as being confronted to the untold horrors of war at, what, 10?

-Tyrion had it the worst, being horrendously mistreated by his father and nobody liked him save Jaime apparently, and even then he betrayed him to an extent in the Tysha incident. And he was still the best out of Tywin's three children, and (very arguably) still is. He certainly was at the start of the War.

-Jaime and Cercei, however, were pampered until they were 16. Jaime was forced to question his vows (big deal, in comparison), and Cercei was married off to Robert. Keep in mind, she wanted to be queen and fucked her brother on the morning of the wedding, so her whole ''waaa Bob wasn't nice to me'' shtick is to be taken with a bit of a grain of salt. The marriage was a disaster, but that's at least mas much Cercei's fault as Robert's. And before that Cercei had already murdered one of her friends at 10-11 and had been abusive to Tyrion way before that, when she had no reason to.

-Joffrey grew up to be the friggin king. Everyone kissed his ass, no one could touch him. Robert was an absent father but fathers in Westeros generally aren't the very best, and he had sadistic tendencies at a young age, see the story with the cat. He was, however, very pampered by Cercei, and he still turned into a hateful cunt. No excuses there.

-Tywin saw his House weaken due to his weak father. Yeah sure, that's not ideal at all, but his answer was to go to the other extreme and become so ruthless, manipulative and heartless that he made many people hate him, and failed to properly care for and educate his children so that they could continue his legacy. And he ended up dying as a direct cause of his misdeeds towards his own son.

Myrcella and Tommen are good kids it seems, at an age where Cercei was already hurting babies and murdering people. Myrcella had her ear cut off and Tommen has to contend with his cray-cray mother, but so far they seem OK overall.

So yeah, I don't see how they suffered. Tyrion is the only one that can really be said to have had a hard childhood. None of them went through a quarter of what the Stark children did.

[Boarsbane]

Hmm, the Lannisters didn't suffer like the Starks did, seeing their family torn apart, backstabbed and murdered bit by bit, as well as being confronted to the untold horrors of war at, what, 10?

-Tyrion had it the worst, being horrendously mistreated by his father and nobody liked him save Jaime apparently, and even then he betrayed him to an extent in the Tysha incident. And he was still the best out of Tywin's three children, and (very arguably) still is. He certainly was at the start of the War.

-Jaime and Cercei, however, were pampered until they were 16. Jaime was forced to question his vows (big deal, in comparison), and Cercei was married off to Robert. Keep in mind, she wanted to be queen and fucked her brother on the morning of the wedding, so her whole ''waaa Bob wasn't nice to me'' shtick is to be taken with a bit of a grain of salt. The marriage was a disaster, but that's at least mas much Cercei's fault as Robert's. And before that Cercei had already murdered one of her friends at 10-11 and had been abusive to Tyrion way before that, when she had no reason to.

-Joffrey grew up to be the friggin king. Everyone kissed his ass, no one could touch him. Robert was an absent father but fathers in Westeros generally aren't the very best, and he had sadistic tendencies at a young age, see the story with the cat. He was, however, very pampered by Cercei, and he still turned into a hateful cunt. No excuses there.

-Tywin saw his House weaken due to his weak father. Yeah sure, that's not ideal at all, but his answer was to go to the other extreme and become so ruthless, manipulative and heartless that he made many people hate him, and failed to properly care for and educate his children so that they could continue his legacy. And he ended up dying as a direct cause of his misdeeds towards his own son.

Myrcella and Tommen are good kids it seems, at an age where Cercei was already hurting babies and murdering people. Myrcella had her ear cut off and Tommen has to contend with his cray-cray mother, but so far they seem OK overall.

So yeah, I don't see how they suffered. Tyrion is the only one that can really be said to have had a hard childhood. None of them went through a quarter of what the Stark children did.

Tyrion didn't go through a quarter of what the Stark children did? This isn't about who had it worse, the point is the Lannisters had event in their lives that shaped the people they became. I said the events of their youth shaped who they would become as much as the Starks is doing, not that they had it worse. It is hilarious to watch people twist my words to make giant ass rants arguing against stuff I never claimed.

[BitsOfBrains]

Why do people hate Lanisters?

They are arrogant wealthy D bags who didn't do anything to earn the loot they have.

They look down on everyone.

They have absolutely zero empathy for people below them in society and will screw over anyone and everyone to the max if there is even a tiny amount of gain in it for them even though they already have everything they could ever want/need.

They lie, cheat, and steal.

They are like country club republicans.

[INCBlackbird]

No, just now I was calling out the bullshit childhood excuse. Having a rough childhood does not make later actions any better or worse. Sure, sympathy, but my sympathies only go so far when the people in question are causing needless bloodshed and destruction. First off, Tywin's childhood was not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. His dad was ineffective and laughed at. That does not give Tywin an excuse to later kill any and all in his path when challenged. Cersei and Jaime had it bad. That does not give them the excuse to fuck around behind their king's back and intentionally deny him heirs and willfully create the risk and need for a succession crisis. Tyrion being forced to watch and endure gangrape does not excuse him from later raping a slave. (Dare I ask what childhood excuse gets Tywin sympathy for ordering gang rape?)

It is ridiculous to think that the majority of problems the seven kingdom's face aren't on the shoulders of the Lannisters. Sure, there are others, but guess who deserves the biggest share? The Lion's share, if you will.

no it does not excuse their actions, I agree with that. however it does explain how they became the way they are. and this all started with you saying that the starks were shaped (and became darker, in some cases are assumed to get darker) because of what they went through and how the lannisters started off dark to begin with. which is clearly not true (you just admitted it), they started off just like the starks (the fact that it happened before the books started is irrelevant), innocent children that were shaped through what happened to them. I do not know much about tywin, he was a product of his childhood too (everyone was) but I think that it's mostly because of him that his family got screwed up (ironically because he was obsessed with demanding his children to be entirely perfect (perfect according to his standards)) the starks had a much better functioning family and thus, they were not screwed up until the war started and their family fell apart and they all got their own traumas to deal with. which is why the starks were not dark before the war started and the lannisters were (their family was disfunctional so they didn't need a war to get screwed up) but the fact remains, they are all products of their environment (as we all are)

that being said I find the lannisters darker then the starks, but I also find them more interesting, because they are so messed up. I tend to find the starks more interesting too as the story progressees because they have traumas to deal with and it's interesting to see how they respond to it and I can only hope they'll overcome said traumas in the end better then the lannisters did.

[BitsOfBrains]

Tyrion didn't go through a quarter of what the Stark children did? This isn't about who had it worse, the point is the Lannisters had event in their lives that shaped the people they became. I said the events of their youth shaped who they would become as much as the Starks is doing, not that they had it worse. It is hilarious to watch people twist my words to make giant ass rants arguing against stuff I never claimed.

It always bugs me when people have sympathy for Targaryans and Lannisters or make excuses for them because someone was mean to them once.

Their lives were better than 99.99% of the population of Westeros.

I mean yeah being born a dwarf sucks, especially way back when, but at least you were born a dwarf who could have anything he wanted and wasn't forced to beg or join a traveling circus or climb up privy shafts.

The "poor me" BS just doesn't cut it when you are highborn in Westeros with the exception of Bran, who really did get the shaft through no real fault of his own.

[INCBlackbird]

It always bugs me when people have sympathy for Targaryans and Lannisters or make excuses for them because someone was mean to them once.

Their lives were better than 99.99% of the population of Westeros.

I mean yeah being born a dwarf sucks, especially way back when, but at least you were born a dwarf who could have anything he wanted and wasn't forced to beg or join a traveling circus or climb up privy shafts.

The "poor me" BS just doesn't cut it when you are highborn in Westeros with the exception of Bran, who really did get the shaft through no real fault of his own.

analysing a character is not excusing them. you can explain a characters behavior by what happened to them and still dont agree with their actions. I don't agree with 99% of the things characters did in these books but in their eyes they had their reasons and that way of thinking was shaped through culture/childhood/traumas... and you can analyse a character to see where that came from. that is not excusing them.