Why does everyone hate the Lannisters?

[Wmarshal]

And the war started between Riverrun and the Rock. That is why Riverrun barely has an army. Wha? No he wouldn't. Going by your train of thought, Ned would have gotten on a ship to visit Stannis or gone home.

at still started the conflict, could have started another way? Sure. But it started with Cat this time.

[David Selig]

Jaime's a bro. His only significant fault is his love for his bitch sister; if you're willing to overlook it (I am, but I'll understand if you aren't), then every other morally questionable deed he's ever done suddenly becomes rational and blameless. Pushing Bran out a window? What's one kid against the lives of himself, his sister/lover, and their three children? He's mostly selfish, but he balks at egregious evil and pointless suffering; this makes him true-neutral, to use the D&D term.

Tyrion, like his brother, is also true-neutral. Spends most of his time and effort on himself, but he's a far cry from evil. Murdering Shae certainly wasn't ethical, but won't shed a tear for her. Tywin was a son of a bitch; not killing him would be unethical. Learning the truth about Tysha sent him into a spiral of rage, hate for his family, and self-loathing; if that shit had happened to me, I'd be at least as jaded as he is in aDwD.

I just love posts like this. "Oh, well, these guys are multiple murderers, no big deal, that doesn't make them bad guys or anything."

[myrcella_baratheon]

Boar, see above. My hatred for Tywin is well reasoned. Admiration for him is blind.

WOW, that's objectivism. So, one can hate Tywin and it's ok, but admiring him (him as a ruler for instance) is blind. Awesome.

I don't hate the Lannisters, they are my favorite family.

You're right, i don't recall Joffrey sending down people to be experimented on by a psycho maester or murder his best friend as a child.

Cersei in FFC is paronoid as hell. She's becoming second Aerys. That isn't Cersei we know from, let's say, CoK. Cersei from CoK doesn't kill people for fun. She always has reasons, ok, sometimes really petty reasons, but she doesn't find murder entertaining. Joffery likes seeing people suffer. That's the differece.

Catelyn couldn't have imagined Robert Baratheon would die and his death would cause a war of succession.

If Robert hadn't died, then Joffrey wouldn't have asked for Ned's head and the North wouldn't want retribution, Stannis and Renly wouldn't fight for the Throne and Balon would still be sulking on his throne. If none of this had happened, at some point, no matter how much Tywin had wanted to piss off Ned Stark, the seven Kingdoms (or well, at least four of five of them) would be in the same side of the Throne against the Lannisters.

Not even Cersei, the one who killed Robert, could have imagined all that, as she didn't want Joffrey to Kill Ned Stark, for instance.

And you don't see that trying to be a fortune-teller and being preperd for all the posibilities you actually can predict are two different things?

I see.

So no matter how high the other players will stack the fire pit with wood, fill it with dry leaves, and cover it with fuel, Catelyn will still get the blame for starting the entire thing a blaze because she lit the spark. Except she didn't light the spark on the pile. She lit it off to the side of the pile where it hardly affected the big pile. then Joffrey comes along with a giant flamethrower that you two are blind to, lights the whole thing up, and now Catelyn is still responsible. smh

the conflict was not started by the arrest. the conflicted was started by Eddard's arrest and decapitation by Cersei and Joffrey respectively. If that's not clear then there's no hope for you.

Expecting Tywin to do something... why are you demonizing Catelyn for not anticipating Tywin's response when you should really be demonizing Tywin for his unreasonable response? Does he get to rape and pillage at his leisure and no one can tell him otherwise? The last ruler to show this kind of overreaction and barbarism was given a slit throat by a golden sword.

Yes, that's my point! I blame Catelyn, I blame her for everything! In fact, I hate the Starks. Ned's too honourable, Catelyn is good mother and wife (that's suspecious), Robb doesn't have POVs (all his fault!), Sansa's still alive and she's chillin with LF, Arya - how dare she be cool while being a Stark?! Rickon is too young. Eventually, I can say it loudly. This thread was created to express my hidden hatred toward the Starks, because it's IMPOSSIBLE to like the characters not because of their last name, but because of their actions! At least I finally can say how much I love Tywin. I was flatterd with his ideas. This murder of Ellia's children, Tysha's rape, so sweet<3

it CAN"T be true:
If my favourite Jon Snow or Jaime Lannister or Arya Stark (If R+J=L, it means my favourite charaters are from 3 different houses! I'm lying here for sure...) did what Catelyn did, I would blame them in the same extent I blame Cat (and I don't put much blame on her, not for entire Wot5k, i just claim she's not innocent. She isn't Litterfinger or Joffery...)

Doesn't matter how many bombs are in the car, but who lit it.

I like it.

[The Prince of Newcastle]

Because they're like Tories

[LordStoneheart]

Boardology at work. I shouldn't have got suckered into this rubbish, but yeah, pearls before swine.

[Minsc]

it CAN"T be true:

If my favourite Jon Snow or Jaime Lannister or Arya Stark (If R+J=L, it means my favourite charaters are from 3 different houses! I'm lying here for sure...) did what Catelyn did, I would blame them in the same extent I blame Cat (and I don't put much blame on her, not for entire Wot5k, i just claim she's not innocent. She isn't Litterfinger or Joffery...)

How is Jaime pushing Bran not a greater point to determining the start of the conflict between the Starks and Lannisters? Seeing how it was the first actual act of hostility.

[jon rhaegar stark]

i dont know anyone here said this before ....when i read the title of this topic

i hear Pedro Pascal's Oberyn Martell saying those words "why does everyone Hate Lannisters"

because as they think they are lions and their golden lions will protect them

all he can see his a lazy one is too slow on the Draw

Eliaaa Martell, you raped her..you killed her and you killed her children

[LordStoneheart]

Hey Minsc, you know we can't hate on Jaime. He's handsome and witty.

[Wmarshal]

How is Jaime pushing Bran not a greater point to determining the start of the conflict between the Starks and Lannisters? Seeing how it was the first actual act of hostility.

I think because no one actually knew he did it pre capture. Hell, you can argue Cat could make an a claim, I have done so before, but when you think of it Robert should have been told, or at least bring Tyrion to him. Capturing a lordling is a act of war, but trying to kill one is just as bad. Guess it depends which started armed conflict.

[myrcella_baratheon]

How is Jaime pushing Bran not a greater point to determining the start of the conflict between the Starks and Lannisters? Seeing how it was the first actual act of hostility.

You're right, I haven't noticed, I have just typed my favourite characters thougthlessly. Jaime's action was a big point.

[LordStoneheart]

bingo, WM. who started the armed conflict? Because it sure as shit wasn't Catelyn.

furthermore, defining Tyrion's arrest as an act of war is contrary to the big war, Robert's Rebellion. I've pointed out that Brandon and Rickard did not lay waste to the crownlands when Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared. Brandon was hotheaded, but he did not declare war. Nor did Rickard.

[Wmarshal]

bingo. who started the armed conflict? Because it sure as shit wasn't Catelyn.

furthermore, defining Tyrion's arrest as an act of war is contrary to the big war, Robert's Rebellion. I've pointed out that Brandon and Rickard did not lay waste to the crownlands when Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared. Brandon was hotheaded, but he did not declare war. Nor did Rickard.

It was Tywin because of Tyrion.

[Wmarshal]

bingo, WM. who started the armed conflict? Because it sure as shit wasn't Catelyn.

furthermore, defining Tyrion's arrest as an act of war is contrary to the big war, Robert's Rebellion. I've pointed out that Brandon and Rickard did not lay waste to the crownlands when Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared. Brandon was hotheaded, but he did not declare war. Nor did Rickard.

Because Brandon wanted to held it more manish then lordly and face Rhaegar solo.

[LordStoneheart]

it was Tywin period. the excuse of poor damaged pride does not magically render him guiltless of the actual fighting and deaths he ordered, and it certainly doesn't transfer it to Catelyn.

[LordStoneheart]

yeah notice how Brandon at least tries to take the problem to it's source, not harass those not involved, and how Rickard doesn't send terrorists to kill those not involved. Even Brandon Stark, who doesn't hold a good reputation with many characters and a certain poster here, did things more honorable and less deadly than Tywin Massacre... I mean, Lannister.

[Mrs_Darcy]

LS what talking about? Eusstace was prepared to start a war for a river. Not sure what you mean.

And he first sent envoys to Lady Rohanne instead of just laying waste to her fields.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

They are interesting and witty but extremely cruel and ruthless and vain.

[Mladen]

No, that wasn't an argument. Just an observation, I should have added an emoticon:). I didn't write it's the reason he should force her to marry him, so comparing my way of thinking to rapists' is unnecessary. And I didn't write he hadn't a way out. I wrote Sansa was the best choice for him from his point of view.

f Sansa married Lancel. That's one man. Oh, I'm sure with Loras (not a chance, he's in the Kingsguard) she would remain virgin as well. Two men.

It's great you have higher standards, but half men of Westeros ( Loras and Lancel are the other one half, of course) don't. We can't be sure how some random guy whould act. You won't convice me. I don't like Tyrion, but that wasn't his idea, he was good husband, they marriage wasn't consummated so there was a chance of marrige annulment.

Well, I didn't compare you to the rapists, and if that came out that way, I owe you an apology. But nonetheless, you did argue that Tyrion was also forced which is kinda not true. Because he did have a way out. Shown by his question to Sansa minutes before the wedding. As for Sansa being the best choice, of course she was the best from his POV. That is hardly even debatable. Someone who was rejected by far lesser Houses, gets a bride from 8000 year-old ruling family that is among the greatest Houses in Westeros. And on top of that, she is mannered, beautiful and virgin. And on top of that is the fact that she is heiress of half the kingdom. So, as I said, Tyrion got quite a lot, and the fact that he closed his eye on the fact that Sansa was threatened to death if she didn't come, well that is his problem. Also, I think it's quite rich to say that Tyrion was the best husband for Sansa. I know can name couple of dozens people who were better suited for Sansa. Even in her situation, I can name few.

As for Lancel (not Loras), have we forgotten what happened to him? Basically, he became Baelor the Blessed after Blackwater so there is a reasonable doubt of whether he would have consummated the marriage. I think we can freely argue that Sansa would have remained the virgin as his wife.

Lastly, I simply don't understand why the need to equalize this forced marriage with the common practice of arranged marriages. First and foremost, whom have we heard about that needed to rape his wife? Like, seriously, which nobleman raped his wife in order to consummate the marriage? I know a few but if you want to compare Ramsay with Tyrion, then... Simply, arranged marriages are not forced marriages. There is a huge difference in level of freedom, choice, consent that simply can't be ignored. What happened to Sansa wasn't common for Westeros. She was forced under the threat of death to marry Tyrion. That is something we don't have every day in Westeros.

[Pigeon Pie]

For the same reasons House Greyjoy isn't very widely liked either; they have one or two complete assholes and the others are pretty likable for one reason or another, and yet.

There's the entire arrogance thing, and the entire Money can do anything thing. Also how they join the winning side; that's not much different from the Freys, is it? Only difference is that the Lannisters actually do something to back that winning side. Not to mention they were behind many massacres and crimes: The sack of King's Landing, the murder of Elia and her children, unleashing Gregor Clegane on the small folk because of the Brotherhood Without Banners, the Red Wedding... that's a lot of things, not even counting Joffrey's crimes in King's Landing. And, all of those likable Lannisters didn't even try to stop Tywin, Joffrey and Cersei from doing all this shit, did they? I totally love Jaime and Tyrion, but during the Lannister crimes that were done while they were in power, old enough, not captives etc... did they try to stop them? They didn't. The only difference between them and the other Lannisters is that they've done a couple good things.

[LordStoneheart]

Mladen, was that a response to me? I don't quite understand if so... but I just noticed I forgot to put a "not" in between did and force in the first line...