Why does everyone hate the Lannisters?

[Boarsbane]

She arrested him. Arrested. Being the Lady Regent of the North, wife of the Warden of the North, and Hand of the King, she had precedent. And it's clear by the bold you did not read that other article I linked you before. It'll save a lot of trouble if you do. It goes over the legality of taking Tyrion.

She did plan to go to KL. She never planned for him to face trial at the Eyrie. That was Lysa's doing, and again, Catelyn did not reason to believe that Lysa was mentally unstable before hand. quite the opposite, actually. Until you read that I'm afraid you'll be beating a well-debunked horse by blaming the war and Tywin's actions on Catelyn.

She had no right to arrest him. Just because her husband and daddy are important men doesn't mean she can do whatever she wants on a whim. The Lannisters are on equal ground with the Starks and Cat has no right to take a LP's son hostage. She gets away with it because she happened to be in her homeland and by the time Tywin hears about it she is in the Vale where he can't reach her.

[myrcella_baratheon]

I blame the educational system for these misconceptions.

Well, I wasn't clear. This event wasn't a cause of the war, I do know. But I couldn't find the words to define what I was thinking about. I blame the educational system.
Let's try with Caetlyn and Wot5k.
The war would break out anyway. But Catelyn with this stupid "I think I can abduct Tyrion because I think he tried to murder my son and I have no evidence except Litterfinger's shitty word" thinking are the reasons the war broke out earlier.

[Lord Damian]

Keven was not devastated about Stannis' letter being true he didn't care at all about it. Keven only thought in terms on how it would affect the Lannisters he gave no fecks about the thousands of lives him and his have taken and destroyed he knew and he kept pushing on.

Kevan had a conscience and it showed in his shame and mistrust in Ser Jaime. Anyways, he is dead so what difference does in make anyway?

[7th-key]

Kevan had a conscience and it showed in his shame and mistrust in Ser Jaime. Anyways, he is dead so what difference does in make anyway?

Conscience? Self righteous and Tywin-fanboy, in my view. Glad he go the shaft.

[Faint]

This topic asks those responding to assume a fact that is empirically untrue. There are legions of readers that love one or more of the Lannisters as characters. Tyrion Lannister is arguably the most popular character in the entire series and Jaime Lannister is not too far behind. There is even a smaller but still considerable faction of readers that love Cersei Lannister, or at least love to hate her.

In fact, I would argue that the Lannisters -- as a whole -- are actually more popular than the Starks, at least as concerns this forum, if not the general public.

[Minsc]

Cat arresting Tyrion is the same. It was the spark, not the cause. The gears of war were already churning, but it can't be denied that once Cat arrested Tyrion, the war started.

Yes, it can seeing how the war didn't start until Robert's death.

No more than being Ned's wife gives her the right to take a Lannister hostage. Tywin may not of flown banners but he sent the most recognizable of his bannermen in hopes everyone would know who he was and that Ned would come after him. If Cat hadn't taken Tyrion hostage those men wouldn't have been killed on the road, simple as that. The hill tribes are known threat, everyone realizes it. She shouldn't have gone to the Vale in the first place, if she wanted to make Tyrion answer for his supposed crimes she should of taken him to KL to answer to the KING's justice, not the crazy Tully sisters' justice.

As acting Lord of the North, that gives her the right to arrest someone that committed a crime within Winterfell. He still tried to hide his response so he could deny it if questioned. She didn't take Tyrion to the Vale to be tried.

[Fat Mac]

Yes, it can seeing how the war didn't start until Robert's death.

Tywin invaded the Riverlands before Robert's death. The war started then.

No she is not. She did force Tywin to start a terrorist campaign across the riverlands. It was not her fault he was so emotional as to respond like that. Tywin could have easily petitioned the King for this matter. He chose War. Tywin Lannister chose War of his own volition.

Continuing the WWI analogy, technically Gavrilo Princip assassinating Archduke Ferdinand didn't mean that the Austro-Hungarian Empire had to declare war on Serbia, but it was only logical that that would be what happened.

[ChillyPolly]

This topic asks those responding to assume a fact that is empirically untrue. There are legions of readers that love one or more of the Lannisters as characters. Tyrion Lannister is arguably the most popular character in the entire series and Jaime Lannister is not too far behind.

Yes, but they are all wrong!

[Boarsbane]

As acting Lord of the North, that gives her the right to arrest someone that committed a crime within Winterfell. He still tried to hide his response so he could deny it if questioned. She didn't take Tyrion to the Vale to be tried.

He didn't commit a crime in Winterfell and Cat is not acting Lord of Winterfell, nor are they in Winterfell at the time she arrest him, or even the North for that matter. Do you think she would of tried this in the Westerlands, or even an impartial region like the Reach? And you are apprantly forgetting the Starks aren't above the Lannisters, they are at best equals and the Lannisters are probably a rung above them being more powerful and married into the royal family.

[Minsc]

He didn't commit a crime in Winterfell and Cat is not acting Lord of Winterfell, nor are they in Winterfell at the time she arrest him, or even the North for that matter. Do you think she would of tried this in the Westerlands, or even an impartial region like the Reach? And you are apprantly forgetting the Starks aren't above the Lannisters, they are at best equals and the Lannisters are probably a rung above them being more powerful and married into the royal family.

He allegedly ordered an attempted assassination of Bran Stark at Winterfell, yes she was the acting Lord of the West in how Ned had named her regent while he was in King's Landing as the Hand.

The fact that the Lannisters are equal to the Starks (they are hardly above them) doesn't mean they are immune from prosecution for their crimes against the Starks.

[LordStoneheart]

:bang:

OP and Boarsbane, you two really need to read the Catnapping thread. or perhaps the books?

The author himself confirmed Catelyn's actions were not strictly illegal and going off what she had for evidence it was completely reasonable to think that 1. there is a Lannister conspiracy against her family. Fact. 2. Each Lannister who was at Winterfell was implicit in this. Mostly fact, discounting Myrcella and Tommen. 3. LF's testimony was trustworthy. False, but at the time Catelyn had good reason to believe it. All this would be explained if you'd bother to do some objective investigating instead of trying to whitewash the Lannisters and demonize Catelyn.

[LordStoneheart]

Also, you may want to ask yourselves one thing. What was the War of the Five Kings?

First, the obvious. A war between five factions, each with their own goal in mind for monarchs.

It was a succession war. Was Tyrion a monarch in this? Were people fighting for Tyrion's right to the Iron Throne? Is that what this was about? No. The WotFK was not caused by Catelyn. It's base cause was Cersei and Jaime intentionally usurping Robert and any progeny of his from the Iron Throne. Stannis found out about this before the Starks were even involved. Him and Arryn found out, Arryn died, Stannis fled to build up an army. he was going to fight whether the Starks were involved or not. Which is the next cause. LF and Lysa's murder of Jon Arryn and giving the false report to Catelyn that it was the Lannisters.

And just why did Catelyn go south? Because she knew that Jaime had pushed Bran. How? She surmised this from the fact that 1. an assassin tried to kill Bran, signifying a need to silence him. 2. Jaime not going on the hunt the day he fell. She goes south to warn Ned. LF intercepts and plays them both. But LF has played the whole realm thus far and will continue to do so even to the Lannisters, so this is a dry criticism. Cat arrests Tyrion based on good evidence she's gathered so far that the Lannisters are working against her family. Good evidence in the fact that she knew Jaime had something do with Bran's fall, an assassin tried to kill him, and Lysa and LF both implicate the Lannisters in this. Why trust them? Because she grew up with them and can't imagine why they would lie. Just as Tyrion grew up with Jaime and Cersei and doesn't tell Catelyn he knows they were the ones that pushed him (something that could have helped save everyone some trouble had Tyrion said this.) We have the benefit of hindsight to realize the folly in trusting Lysa and Petyr but the characters don't upon the actual unfolding events, and thus it was not a bad plan to trust those that seem like allies rather than those known as enemies (which is another reason Tyrion's "why would I arm an assassin with my own knife?" proclamation is not trusted. He's an attained prisoner. Of course he's going to lie about his intentions while LF and Lysa were believed. From Cat's perspective they had no reason to lie.)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Agree with the post above^ The War of the 5K had nothing to do with Cat's actions. None of the 5K's actions had anything to do with Cat's actions, except Robb, because of his father being killed by King #1.

[Boarsbane]

OP and Boarsbane, you two really need to read the Catnapping thread. or perhaps the books?

The author himself confirmed Catelyn's actions were not strictly illegal and going off what she had for evidence it was completely reasonable to think that 1. there is a Lannister conspiracy against her family. Fact. 2. Each Lannister who was at Winterfell was implicit in this. Mostly fact, discounting Myrcella and Tommen. 3. LF's testimony was trustworthy. False, but at the time Catelyn had good reason to believe it. All this would be explained if you'd bother to do some objective investigating instead of trying to whitewash the Lannisters and demonize Catelyn.

I have read it, it isn't like the author himself wrote it so sorry I don't take everything the OP wrote as gospel like you seem to. GRRM's response is brief and ambiguous, it doesn't support your stance anymore than mine. I'm not whitewashing the Lannisters, just putting blame where it belongs, Cat started the hostilities in the Riverlands, by far the most destructive of the war, I can't pin the whole war on her because Renly, Stannis, and Balon but the Lannister-Stark conflict was brought to a bloody start on her idiotic whim.

[myrcella_baratheon]

True, the assassination didn't cause the war, but it sparked the violence. I realize something else would have if it didn't, but it was still the spark.

Cat arresting Tyrion is the same. It was the spark, not the cause. The gears of war were already churning, but it can't be denied that once Cat arrested Tyrion, the war started.

Note: I don't blame Cat for causing the war, but she is responsible for the violence actually starting

Thak you so much for explaining that. "The spark" was the word I needed.

So, if no woman wanted to marry Tyrion, he should force one to marry him? What a nice logic. I suppose rapists think similarly. You didn't answer my question: if he had no way out, why did he offer Sansa a way out? Tyrion wasn't the best of the Lannisters. If Sansa married Lancel, there is a big chance she would also remain virgin in his bed.

And let we not kid ourselves around. This is not how Westeros works. Brides are not threatened to death to come to the wedding, nor the husbands are supposed to rape their wives.

All and all, if someone wants to give a gold star to man who, guess what, didn't rape a 12 year-old girl, by all means do that. I, personally, have higher standards.

No, that wasn't an argument. Just an observation, I should have added an emoticon:). I didn't write it's the reason he should force her to marry him, so comparing my way of thinking to rapists' is unnecessary. And I didn't write he hadn't a way out. I wrote Sansa was the best choice for him from his point of view.
f Sansa married Lancel. That's one man. Oh, I'm sure with Loras (not a chance, he's in the Kingsguard) she would remain virgin as well. Two men.

It's great you have higher standards, but half men of Westeros ( Loras and Lancel are the other one half, of course) don't. We can't be sure how some random guy whould act. You won't convice me. I don't like Tyrion, but that wasn't his idea, he was good husband, they marriage wasn't consummated so there was a chance of marrige annulment.

Who did Brandon rape? That is still hardly equal to all the murders performed/ordered by Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, and Joffrey.

When does Tywin ever show even the slightest concern about rape besides just ordering it?

Simply, if Gregor had murdered and raped Elia without Tywin's approval then there is no way that Tywin would have kept him around after causing such a shit storm.

Tywin's titles don't matter for his actions because attacking another region is drastically worse then arresting someone else.

For example Barbery. As a woman I consider rape to be one of the most awful things human beings are capable of. Unfortunetaly, I don't remember more about Rickard and Brandon, but it was Theon's chapter in DwD, you can check.

I can't belive one can be so naive. The Mountain was the best warrior that Tywin had. He considered it distastful (I'm hearing Oberyn's voice in my head), but Tywin's Tywin. He wouldn't get rid of him.

Tywin was disgusted by how Elia died.

But not because of Elia herself but for the problems that caused.

Big difference, imo.

I think both. I don't claim Tywin was the most sympathetic guy in Westeros, but I had the impression his disguest here was honest.

:bang:

OP and Boarsbane, you two really need to read the Catnapping thread. or perhaps the books?

The author himself confirmed Catelyn's actions were not strictly illegal and going off what she had for evidence it was completely reasonable to think that 1. there is a Lannister conspiracy against her family. Fact. 2. Each Lannister who was at Winterfell was implicit in this. Mostly fact, discounting Myrcella and Tommen. 3. LF's testimony was trustworthy. False, but at the time Catelyn had good reason to believe it. All this would be explained if you'd bother to do some objective investigating instead of trying to whitewash the Lannisters and demonize Catelyn.

I guess Tywin thought the same way... :bang:

[LordStoneheart]

Her post is more in-depth and analyzing than blindly putting blame on a character you don't like. Catelyn did not order armies to raid the Riverlands. If you think Tywin was 100% justified in slaughtering innocents who had nothing to do with what he was butthurt about I have to question your idea of right and wrong, which often entails whitewashing of bad actions. Tywin had a choice. He could've did spoke to Robert about the action, something even Rickard and Brandon (the apparently Worse Person IN WESTEROS EVER second to Catelyn) did. Or he could chose war. Tywin chose war. Tywin started the hostilities.

But wait, there's no blood on Tywin Lannister's hands, is there? He's 100% justified in everything he does because reasons.

[Minsc]

For example Barbery. As a woman I consider rape to be one of the most awful things human beings are capable of. Unfortunetaly, I don't remember more about Rickard and Brandon, but it was Theon's chapter in DwD, you can check.

Brandon didn't rape Barbary, especially seeing how she thinks fondly of him.

I can't belive one can be so naive. The Mountain was the best warrior that Tywin had. He considered it distastful (I'm hearing Oberyn's voice in my head), but Tywin's Tywin. He wouldn't get rid of him.

That isn't Tywin's behavior, simply if he was angry about Gregor killing/raping Elia then the fact that Gregor is a good warrior wouldn't matter as Tywin would get rid of the problem maker.

[Minstral]

I am one of those that harbor some dislike for the House of Lannister as a whole, but not outright hatred. The current generation is both indirectly responsible for a lot of the devastation that we see in the Riverlands while the older generation, Tywin and to an extent Kevan, are directly responsible. Still there are some interesting characters to consider from the house which can make interesting reads. That said, the characters and populace in Westeros hate the Lannisters much more than any of us book readers.

[The Wolves]

That isn't Tywin's behavior, simply if he was angry about Gregor killing/raping Elia then the fact that Gregor is a good warrior wouldn't matter as Tywin would get rid of the problem maker.

He kept using Gregor also, he knew Gregor was a brutal monster but he sent him right in regardless of the women and children that would be raped. Tywin had the maesters try to save Gregor because he had a able cruel, evil, rapist to unleash on innocent women and children because that's what a monster like Tywin does.

[Boarsbane]

Her post is more in-depth and analyzing than blindly putting blame on a character you don't like. Catelyn did not order armies to raid the Riverlands. If you think Tywin was 100% justified in slaughtering innocents who had nothing to do with what he was butthurt about I have to question your idea of right and wrong, which often entails whitewashing of bad actions. Tywin had a choice. He could've did spoke to Robert about the action, something even Rickard and Brandon (the apparently Worse Person IN WESTEROS EVER second to Catelyn) did. Or he could chose war. Tywin chose war. Tywin started the hostilities.

But wait, there's no blood on Tywin Lannister's hands, is there? He's 100% justified in everything he does because reasons.

You blindly put the blame on Tywin, a character you hate. It isn't blindly putting blame, I think Cat taking Tyrion prisoner is what started the conflict that escalated into the War of the Five Kings, it expanded later but it started in the Riverlands thanks to Cat. I don't particularly dislike Cat. Cat had a choice too, she chose to take Tyrion prisoner and run off to the Vale instead of asking Robert for justice.

Never said he had no blood on his hands. You should be preaching about how their is no blood on Cat's hand, forget those guys she got killed taking Tyrion prisoner, Tywin killed more smallfolk so he is worse, it is all a matter of math.