Why does everyone hate the Lannisters?

[LordStoneheart]

yes, by continuing Gregor's employ Tywin is responsible for the rape of Elia, even if he didn't order it. which he most likely did. Perhaps a list of names might help...

Elia

Tysha

Masha

Layna

Tytos' mistress

Jeyne Poole

Rhaenys

Aegon

Lords Reyne and Tarbeck (plus any family member so we can possibly presume Lady Reyne and Tarbeck, plus children)

Every man, woman, and child at the seats of Reyne and Tarbeck

His history of blood and rape outweighs any admiration I could have for his politics and strategy.

[Boarsbane]

He kept using Gregor also, he knew Gregor was a brutal monster but he sent him right in regardless of the women and children that would be raped. Tywin had the maesters try to save Gregor because he had a able cruel, evil, rapist to unleash on innocent women and children because that's what a monster like Tywin does.

Actually he wanted them to save him so he could be executed to please the Martells but don't let the text get in the way of a good story

[Aaronomus]

Jaime's a bro. His only significant fault is his love for his bitch sister; if you're willing to overlook it (I am, but I'll understand if you aren't), then every other morally questionable deed he's ever done suddenly becomes rational and blameless. Pushing Bran out a window? What's one kid against the lives of himself, his sister/lover, and their three children? He's mostly selfish, but he balks at egregious evil and pointless suffering; this makes him true-neutral, to use the D&D term.

Tyrion, like his brother, is also true-neutral. Spends most of his time and effort on himself, but he's a far cry from evil. Murdering Shae certainly wasn't ethical, but won't shed a tear for her. Tywin was a son of a bitch; not killing him would be unethical. Learning the truth about Tysha sent him into a spiral of rage, hate for his family, and self-loathing; if that shit had happened to me, I'd be at least as jaded as he is in aDwD.

Cersei is a deadly combination of stupid and evil. The sooner she dies, the better off the world will be.

Tywin was a deadlier combination of brilliant and evil. His death is single best thing to happen since the start of the war.

Kevan's a bro. Yeah, he liked Tywin, but Tywin was good to him, and as his brother he was too close to him to see what he truly was, so I can forgive that. Even Varys, king of the bros, admits that he's a good guy.

As for the less-characterized Lannisters, most of them seem okay. A douchebag here and there, but whatever. I don't count Cersei's bastards as Lannisters; they're Baratheons-of-Kings-Landing, which is its own thing.

So as you can see, I don't especially dislike the Lannisters as a whole. That said, they're the single greatest impediment to peace, and we should all hope that King Stannis puts an end to their tyranny.

[Minsc]

Actually he wanted them to save him so he could be executed to please the Martells but don't let the text get in the way of a good story

Only because the mess he made by killing Oberyn, yet before he was refusing to pay his debt of delivering Gregor to the Martells as per the terms of Tyrion's alliance with the Martells.

[LordStoneheart]

Boar, see above. My hatred for Tywin is well reasoned. Admiration for him is blind.

As for Gregor, he never planned on giving the Martells any satisfaction. His plan was to tell them Amory Lorch did the rape and murder so he could Gregor as a terrorist. It was only after the duel that he made any plans to truly satisfy the Martells because he saw the dire need of that with the war winding down and Martells being one of the only two regions unaffected by it.

Catelyn and the others killed those who were attacking them. They were in immediate danger. Not the same as laying waste to the Riverlands smallfolk.

[Minstral]

Actually he wanted them to save him so he could be executed to please the Martells but don't let the text get in the way of a good story

Sir, that is bollocks. If he were intent on serving up Gregor to the Martells then he would have done so when given the chance to hand him over to Oberyn. Instead, he flatly tells Tyrion that he has no intention of doing so and that he serves a better purpose of striking fear into their enemies due to his reputation for violence and list of atrocities.

[Wmarshal]

Jaime was willing to murder Arya, his pushin of Bran shouldn't be overturned, even Cersei said he shouldn't have done that, that is saying a lot.

Tyrion gave an army of rapists weapons to put their pillaging and raping to mark five. He also raped someone.

So Cerseiis completely evil, yet Tyrion is okay? They are both horrid. True siblings.

Tywin's death though deserved, only shattered the peace in Westeros. Much of the chaos would not exit if he still lived.

Kevan aided in mass murder, but a good family man.

The lannisters as a whole are not evil, but the main branch are simple monsters.

[LordStoneheart]

I tire of this, but I will say one last time that it is preposterous to think that Cat's actions caused, led to, or even inspired the WotFK.

The "War" was declared when Cersei had Eddard imprisoned. That is when Robb called his banners. Had zero to do with Cat. Then it was full-fledged Rebellion when Eddard was beheaded, Renly declared himself King in Highgarden, and Stannis put forth his legal or "rightful" claim to the Iron Throne. these are separate events from the Catnapping and if you think differently, well, you're wrong. plain and simple.

[Boarsbane]

Sir, that is bollocks. If he were intent on serving up Gregor to the Martells then he would have done so when giving the chance to hand him over to Oberyn. Instead, he flatly tells Tyrion that he has no intention of doing so and that he serves a better purpose of striking fear into their enemies due to his reputation for violence and list of atrocities.

He clearly states that he wants Gregor healed so they can execute him. I know a lot of people don't believe anything Tywin says but given Gregor had just confessed his crimes in front of everyone I find it kind of hard to believe Tywin thinks he can keep Gregor in his service.

[Wmarshal]

No, war happened when Tywin broke the king's peace and assaulted the riverlands, fighting and defeating Edmure, now why did that happen?

[The Wolves]

No, war happened when Tywin broke the king's peace and assaulted the riverlands, fighting and defeating Edmure, now why did that happen?

War would have always came about regardless of Catelyn taking Tyrion.

-Stannis knew about the incest and was gathering swords getting ready for war

-Ned would have found out about the twincest/3 bastards than Cersei would have had him imprisoned, killing Robert, and Robb would have called his banners and Joffery being the uncontrollable sociopath would have had Ned killed pushing the North and Riverlands into all out war.

-Renly would have rebelled when Robert died because he's a disloyal punk like Robert

-Tywin would have called his banners to keep his evil family in power

A war was coming with or without Catelyn taking Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei with their 3 bastards and stealing the crown made sure of that.

[Minstral]

He clearly states that he wants Gregor healed so they can execute him. I know a lot of people don't believe anything Tywin says but given Gregor had just confessed his crimes in front of everyone I find it kind of hard to believe Tywin thinks he can keep Gregor in his service.

I am well aware of this, but this was the point were Tywin could no longer publicly deny his involvement. Right after the Red Wedding he tells Tyrion that the Mountain is more use to them because he is the most feared man in the 7 Kingdoms. He has no intent on serving justice to the Dornish prior to point of when the man is no longer an asset to him. Mentioning it as an example of his integrity is a straw man.

[Boarsbane]

I am well aware of this, but this was the point were Tywin could no longer publicly deny his involvement. Right after the Red Wedding he tells Tyrion that the Mountain is more use to them because he is the most feared man in the 7 Kingdoms. He has no intent on serving justice to the Dornish prior to point of when the man is no longer an asset to him. Mentioning it as an example of his integrity is a straw man.

If you are well aware of this then why are you saying what I said was "bollocks"? I never claimed Tywin was going to offer up him before he confessed, the Wolves said Tywin wanted the maesters to heal Gregor so he could keep using him so I thought it was obvious we were talking post confession.

[Ghosts Lunch]

As I wrote above, why do most people hate the Lannisters? I find them incredibly interesting. Such complex characters. It seems to me that a lot of book readers think 'Lannister' = Cersei or Joffery, forgetting about:

Tyrion - it is probably not what his fans want to hear but he isn't much different from the rest of the family. He's proud, ambitious, witty and power-hungry. He's truly a lion!

Jaime - his redemption arc is so well written that you can like Kingslayer or not but you can't say he's bad guy now

Tywin - well, lack of enthusiasm here is understandable but it's hard not to admire him as a politician and strategist

Genna, Daven - both are really likeable

Kevan - what a decent man (he was:( )

Lancel - he has always been annoying but he acts like Baelor the Blessed right now,

Characters who doesn't apper in the series (but are mentioned):

dead uncle Gerion - wise traveller with great sense of humour, favourite Tyrion's uncle

Joanna Lannister - I suppose she was a valuable woman, good wife and mother, but this is just my opinion.

As for Joffery and Cersei:

If we consider Joffery BARATHEON a Lannister, we have to treat his siblings the same way. It means Tommen and Myrcella (the sweetest and most kind hearted children in Westeros) are also a part of House Lannister.

Even though Cersei may be one of the most furious, foolish and short-sighted women in 7 Kingdoms, her 'evilness' can't be compared to Joffery's. She's really twisted. She wants power, she loves her children, she is a victim, she is cruel. Yeah, she's definitly the bad one, but I can't help feeling sorry for her.

So why? Why are there so many "I hate the Lannisters!" statements?

This is my first post here so hello:)

(Sorry for my English, it's not my native language.)

only tv viewers truly hate the Lannisters. they haven't read the books and think that the Lannisters are evil and all problems came from them. so no, not everyone hate the Lannisters.

Pretty much this

In the books they are just another political family who approach things with a different mentality to some of the other families. People like Cersei make mistakes and can come across as cruel but Catelyn made mistakes too based on her love for her children etc. I always can't quite get to grips with why they are put forward as the stereotyped villain family, all families have done their controversial acts as well as having noble acts

As far as the show goes, if Ser Kevan features prominently then it may go to adjusting peoples mindsets

[LordStoneheart]

Post confession doesn't really count as he had no choice since many heard it. too little too late at that point.

[Kaguya]

I don't hate the Lannisters, they are my favorite family.

Even though Cersei may be one of the most furious, foolish and short-sighted women in 7 Kingdoms, her 'evilness' can't be compared to Joffery's.

You're right, i don't recall Joffrey sending down people to be experimented on by a psycho maester or murder his best friend as a child.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

only tv viewers truly hate the Lannisters. they haven't read the books and think that the Lannisters are evil and all problems came from them. so no, not everyone hate the Lannisters.

I disagree completely. In show, we have the "light" version of the Lannisters.

Cersei is mostly a victim who tries hard but fails for things beyond her control.

Tyrion is stripped from all the grey sides of his personality and it's the adorable underdog.

Tywin is interpreted by the great Charles Dance and he has a lot of fans.

Jaime is Mr. Charisma. And he loves Brienne.

[myrcella_baratheon]

Her post is more in-depth and analyzing than blindly putting blame on a character you don't like. Catelyn did not order armies to raid the Riverlands. If you think Tywin was 100% justified in slaughtering innocents who had nothing to do with what he was butthurt about I have to question your idea of right and wrong, which often entails whitewashing of bad actions. Tywin had a choice. He could've did spoke to Robert about the action, something even Rickard and Brandon (the apparently Worse Person IN WESTEROS EVER second to Catelyn) did. Or he could chose war. Tywin chose war. Tywin started the hostilities.

But wait, there's no blood on Tywin Lannister's hands, is there? He's 100% justified in everything he does because reasons.

I'm aware of Tywin's disadvantages. He was an awful father, a ruthless man and bad person, pure and simple. There's so much blood on his hand you can't even imagine. Why do you think this is the Starks vs. the Lannisters? He isn't justified in his action. It doesn't change the fact that Catelyn was foolish. Tywin could speak to Robert or he could declare war on Starks. She should have expected the worst (Tywin's a Lannister! The worst family EVER! If you prefer this level on conversation...)

I can't pin the whole war on her because Renly, Stannis, and Balon but the Lannister-Stark conflict was brought to a bloody start on her idiotic whim.

True.

I don't want to demonize Catelyn. I like her very much. I DO NOT think she is responsible for the war, it would break out anyway. But she is not innocent! She isn't reasonable whan it comes to children. She could expect that Tywin would do something.

[Kaguya]

I disagree completely. In show, we have the "light" version of the Lannisters.

Cersei is mostly a victim who tries hard but fails for things beyond her control.

Tyrion is stripped from all the grey sides of his personality and it's the adorable underdog.

Tywin is interpreted by the great Charles Dance and he has a lot of fans.

Jaime is Mr. Charisma. And he loves Brienne.

Very true

In the show Joffrey is the only black lannister (very stupid idea imo)

[LordStoneheart]

I see.

So no matter how high the other players will stack the fire pit with wood, fill it with dry leaves, and cover it with fuel, Catelyn will still get the blame for starting the entire thing a blaze because she lit the spark. Except she didn't light the spark on the pile. She lit it off to the side of the pile where it hardly affected the big pile. then Joffrey comes along with a giant flamethrower that you two are blind to, lights the whole thing up, and now Catelyn is still responsible. smh

the conflict was not started by the arrest. the conflicted was started by Eddard's arrest and decapitation by Cersei and Joffrey respectively. If that's not clear then there's no hope for you.

Expecting Tywin to do something... why are you demonizing Catelyn for not anticipating Tywin's response when you should really be demonizing Tywin for his unreasonable response? Does he get to rape and pillage at his leisure and no one can tell him otherwise? The last ruler to show this kind of overreaction and barbarism was given a slit throat by a golden sword.