Thank Mhysa for “Freedom”

[Cas Stark]

This is not pertinent to Slaver's Bay, is it?

Yes, because you pose a false choice, as if there are only two options with a slave society, status quo or burn it down. And this is false.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Yes, because you pose a false choice, as if there are only two options with a slave society, status quo or burn it down. And this is false.

Even if those are not the 'only' two options. They are in fact, options. And 'status quo' is the option that the entire world has chosen until Dany came along.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

That is a very exaggerated number, the slaver class of Astapor would only be in the hundreds, definitely not hundreds of thousands of dead slavers in Astapor.

I was not referring to slavers specifically but to the people of Astapor and their fate.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Yes, because you pose a false choice, as if there are only two options with a slave society, status quo or burn it down. And this is false.

Well, just to be clear, I'm not making some universal point about all slavery everywhere. I'm talking about Slaver's Bay.

Tell me what other option Dany had. I've asked this question before and never gotten any satisfactory answer. Legislation clearly wasn't an option, so this isn't a satisfactory answer, either.

If you have a realistic option other than the two I posited, please tell me what it is.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I was not referring to slavers specifically but to the people of Astapor and their fate.

You said;

How many hundreds of thousands of people died or suffered greatly due to Daenerys actions there?

And I am saying that number is completely exaggerated. The day Dany 'sacked' Astapor she only ordered the killings of the slavers and their soldiers; 100's of people (not hundreds of thousands of people). And she left the city under the rule of 3 people she felt were capable. Anything that happened after that cannot be laid at her feet. The people of Slaver's Bay have to take responsibility for their own actions separate from Daenerys. I think a good thread might be to look at the failure of others in Slaver's Bay besides Dany, for instance the Council of Three she left in charge. Or, the brutality of Cleon, who overthrew the council and instilled the new law himself, again, completely separate from Dany.

For instance, is it Jon's fault that the wildlings and the NW do not get along after he lets them through the wall?

[TheWitch]

Let's use a real life example. Removing slavery from America in the 1800's was complex. It had a serious negative effect on the economy of the south and life for the African Americans didn't improve suddenly, in fact it took a century and there are still more hurdles to cross. Yet, no one would say that slavery should have stayed. Freedom IS freedom, even if you don't think it works. Slavery is abhorrent and good on Dany for wanting to stop it.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Let's use a real life example. Removing slavery from America in the 1800's was complex. It had a serious negative effect on the economy of the south and life for the African Americans didn't improve suddenly, in fact it took a century and there are still more hurdles to cross. Yet, no one would say that slavery should have stayed.

YEs exactly. This is what Jon Con's Red BEard was trying to say earlier in the thread, about how it is too early to judge her actions in SB. Changes like this do not get solved overnight, it takes decades for a new way of life to take hold and to be accepted by all. Civil rights didnt pass in Mississippi until what?? 1965, almost 200 years after the Civil War.

Blaming Dany for not doing a good job during the same year that she first made this enormous change is simply too early, and I say it again, it is only done for the 'fun' in bashing her.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

You said;

And I am saying that number is completely exaggerated. The day Dany 'sacked' Astapor she only ordered the killings of the slavers and their soldiers; 100's of people (not hundreds of thousands of people). And she left the city under the rule of 3 people she felt were capable. Anything that happened after that cannot be laid at her feet. The people of Slaver's Bay have to take responsibility for their own actions separate from Daenerys. I think a good thread might be to look at the failure of others in Slaver's Bay besides Dany, for instance the Council of Three she left in charge. Or, the brutality of Cleon, who overthrew the council and instilled the new law himself, again, completely separate from Dany.

For instance, is it Jon's fault that the wildlings and the NW do not get along after he lets them through the wall?

First she sacked Astapor and committed an atrocity herself.

She took Astapor's army, then made is a pariah state.

She created a power vacuum, selected herself weak leadership and didn't stay to lead for which action follow consequences.

A butcher rebelled who made slaves out of nobility to make a (shoddy) army to defend the city. Then the city she made a pariah state was brutally sacked.

Obviously for a lot of what has happened plenty of responsibility goes to others than Daenerys, yes the Yunkai are evil scum and are more responsible for the suffering than Daenerys herself. That doesn't absolve her from the responsibility of taking Astapor's army, making a Paraiah state, putting weak leadership, abandoning it. Which is something she realizes herself in ADWD when she decides to not abandon Mereen to its fate like Astapor. This is a consistent theme with her we see back in GOT when others pay the price for her ambition of the Iron Throne, even though she had some good intentions. All of the above has been said countless times and isn't debatable.

So accepting that a person who implements massive changes, starts a war, removes the leadership of a city and even has their share of attrocities and all these actions result in a lot of bloodshed has responsibility for what happened does not absolve others like that butcher from their actions.

For instance, is it Jon's fault that the wildlings and the NW do not get along after he lets them through the wall?

That is a remarkable horrible analogy. Letting the wildlings in the wall was the right decision. Taking Astapor's army, putting those 3 leaders, and killing slavers (and others) and leaving wasn't. Now Jon has made decisions which could be debated about whether they are mistakes or not but letting the wildlings in wasn't one of them as for a pragmatical POV the watch needed the men, and they certainly didn't need them as wights. However viewing at the consequences of Daenerys actions in Astapor the result is much more negative as we see from Daenerys herself viewing it so. (While Jon second guesses himself in regards to other decisions).

[Cas Stark]

YEs exactly. This is what Jon Con's Red BEard was trying to say earlier in the thread. Changes like this do not get solved overnight, it takes decades for a new way of life to take hold and to be accepted by all. Civil rights didnt pass in Mississippi until what?? 1965, almost 200 years after the Civil War.

Blaming Dany for not doing a good job during the same years that she first made this enormous change is simply too early, and I say it again, it is only done for the 'fun' in bashing her.

Like I said, the American civil war is the exception, not the rule. Slavery was generally abolished peacefully, without wars being fought. You guys can't complain about only talking about Slaver's Bay and then keep bringing up the biggest real life exception to the rule example of slavery being abolished through a violent war, since it almost never happened that way.

I blame anyone who starts a war on a random whim, with no plan or personnel with which to rule. No matter what kind of awesome noble goals they have. But, I'm fairly sure the author is still going to reward her folly by letting her fix the situation in some way, since she pretty much always gets rewarded for everything since Drogo died.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

First she sacked Astapor and committed an atrocity herself.

She took Astapor's army, then made is a pariah state.

She created a power vacuum, selected herself weak leadership and didn't stay to lead for which action follow consequences.

A butcher rebelled who made slaves out of nobility to make a (shoddy) army to defend the city. Then the city she made a pariah state was brutally sacked.

Obviously for a lot of what has happened plenty of responsibility goes to others than Daenerys, yes the Yunkai are evil scum and are more responsible for the suffering than Daenerys herself. That doesn't absolve her from the responsibility of taking Astapor's army, making a Paraiah state, putting weak leadership, abandoning it. Which is something she realizes herself in ADWD when she decides to not abandon Mereen to its fate like Astapor. This is a consistent theme with her we see back in GOT when others pay the price for her ambition of the Iron Throne, even though she had some good intentions. All of the above has been said countless times and isn't debatable.

So accepting that a person who implements massive changes, removes the leadership of a city and even has their share of attrocities and all these actions result in a lot of bloodshed has some responsibility for what happened does not absolve others like that butcher from their actions.

That is a remarkable horrible analogy. Letting the wildlings in the wall was the right decision. Taking Astapor's army, putting those 3 leaders, and killing slavers (and others) and leaving wasn't. Now Jon has made decisions which could be debated about whether they are mistakes or not but letting the wildlings in wasn't one of them as for a pragmatical POV the watch needed the men, and they certainly didn't need them as enemies. However viewing at the consequences of Daenerys actions in Astapor the result is much more negative.

All I was doing was pointing out that you exaggerated the number of dead in Astapor.

I dont think it was a horrible analogy. Just a regular one.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Like I said, the American civil war is the exception, not the rule. Slavery was generally abolished peacefully, without wars being fought. You guys can't complain about only talking about Slaver's Bay and then keep bringing up the biggest real life exception to the rule example of slavery being abolished through a violent war, since it almost never happened that way.

I blame anyone who starts a war on a random whim, with no plan or personnel with which to rule. No matter what kind of awesome noble goals they have. But, I'm fairly sure the author is still going to reward her folly by letting her fix the situation in some way, since she pretty much always gets rewarded for everything since Drogo died.

So the civil war is irrelevant since slavery is usually abolished quietly(which I'm not sure is an accurate statement without further research on my part)? I don't think you can put limitations on which slavery wars we use as examples simply because it is a meaningful and valid argument on our part.

[El Guapo]

Yeah I am guessing that if Dany were to petition the grand masters of Astapor or Meereen for that matter with legislation to abolish slavery they would pretty much laugh in her face. War was the only way to abolish it. I can't believe this is even a debateable point.

[TheWitch]

I don't like this attitude that GRRM makes everything great for her, beaches he doesn't and you clearly don't respect him as a writer. Dany has had a good ride but by no means perfect since Drogo died. Sorry but slavery weather it's 18th to 19th century, Roman, Viking or Greek is not ok, I will always support the right to freedom. As for feeling entitled yes Dany does, and it's annoying but show me a character who doesn't feeling entitled to something.

[Cas Stark]

All I was doing was pointing out that you exaggerated the number of dead in Astapor.

I dont think it was a horrible analogy. Just a regular one.

The difference with jon is that he doesn't say 'yo, I got this wildling thing all set up and then take off for somewhere else' like dany did.

I thought Astapor is the worst hell hole Quentyn has ever seen? And the city is now sealed, with whomever is still alive stuck in there and can't get out with the plague raging? It seems likely the death toll for Astaopor is going to be that everyone who didn't flee with Dany will end up dead.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

The difference with jon is that he doesn't say 'yo, I got this wildling thing all set up and then take off for somewhere else' like dany did.

I thought Astapor is the worst hell hole Quentyn has ever seen? And the city is now sealed, with whomever is still alive stuck in there and can't get out with the plague raging? It seems likely the death toll for Astaopor is going to be that everyone who didn't flee with Dany will end up dead.

Right, but we have already agreed that after she left and put a council in charge, nothing that happened after that is her fault. Or else please explain to me how it is her fault. And please do keep in mind that if you say 'Dany should have never gone there' that hundreds of thousands of people would still be dying as the Slavers continued to make Unsullied.

[Cas Stark]

Right, but we have already agreed that after she left and put a council in charge, nothing that happened after that is her fault. Or else please explain to me how it is her fault. And please do keep in mind that if you say 'Dany should have never gone there' that hundreds of thousands of people would still be dying as the Slavers continued to make Unsullied.

I don't agree with you there. Leaving three random "wise" people in charge of a city where you have just killed off all the ruling class and soldiers and you don't leave any of your soldiers there to keep the peace is brutally stupid. And so, yes, I consider that EVERYTHING that has happened in Astapor since is her fault. And worse, she never bothers to send any unsullied back to help anyone or restore peace, she lets it burn.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

The difference with jon is that he doesn't say 'yo, I got this wildling thing all set up and then take off for somewhere else' like dany did.

JOn made a decision that disrupted the Status Quo, that many many people disagreed with and even wanted to kill over. HE sent some of the wildlings south, some of them to other parts of the wall, all of which were out from under his watch, and all the problems they caused, he was not there to deal with them. He let other NW members deal with them. Or are you saying that Jon personally settled every argument that arose after he let the wildlings through?

[Cas Stark]

I don't like this attitude that GRRM makes everything great for her, beaches he doesn't and you clearly don't respect him as a writer. Dany has had a good ride but by no means perfect since Drogo died. Sorry but slavery weather it's 18th to 19th century, Roman, Viking or Greek is not ok, I will always support the right to freedom. As for feeling entitled yes Dany does, and it's annoying but show me a character who doesn't feeling entitled to something.

She gets dragons. Then she gets the unsullied. Then she gets Selmy, the greatest warrior in Westeros. She gets the mercenary army because Daario thinks she's hot. Very soon to add to her list of gifts will be Tyrion Lannister, one of the best strategic minds in Westeros, an Iron Born navy and a massive Dothraki khalisar.

And, yes, I think this is getting to be not very good plotting on the author's part....since I am almost certain he will find some deux et machina solution to Slaver's Bay so it will be on the road to recovery, LOL.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I don't agree with you there. Leaving three random "wise" people in charge of a city where you have just killed off all the ruling class and soldiers and you don't leave any of your soldiers there to keep the peace is brutally stupid. And so, yes, I consider that EVERYTHING that has happened in Astapor since is her fault. And worse, she never bothers to send any unsullied back to help anyone or restore peace, she lets it burn.

OK, I understand your POV. I disagree. Cleon did not have an army or soldiers when he took over Astapor. He simply saw a weakness and exploited it. That is not Dany's fault, that is the mistake of the council of three (whom we know almost nothing about). Did Dany make Cleon take over Astapor?

Were the Council of Three incapable of hiring their own soldiers?

[Cas Stark]

JOn made a decision that disrupted the Status Quo, that many many people disagreed with and even wanted to kill over. HE sent some of the wildlings south, some of them to other parts of the wall, all of which were out from under his watch, and all the problems they caused, he was not there to deal with them. He let other NW members deal with them. Or are you saying that Jon personally settled every argument that arose after he let the wildlings through?

He is LC of the NW, any NW that disobey his orders will answer for it. It is not at all similar to leaving three people and no army on their own to "rule". He is the one who is directing EVERYTHING, he is deciding who goes where and who does what. He's attempting to carry out his vision. Unlike Dany, who is deluded that saying "ya'll free now have fun" is reasonable or responsible.