Thank Mhysa for “Freedom”

[Arakan]

And meanwhile:

"On Dragonstone he would gamble with the torturers and lend them a hand in the questioning of prisoners, especially if the prisoner were a young woman"

That's from the "Sacrifice" chapter in ADwD. So, Stannis's administration on Dragonstone routinely practiced torture, but there is, of course, zero criticism of "the Mannis", while Dany is heaped with abuse for the wineseller's daughters, etc. It seems that Dany learned her lesson about the futility and abhorrence of torture pretty quick, too, while Stannis never did...

As to Dany thinking that quick intervention and overthrow of the corrupt regime was all that was needed to free the people and give them better life - naive, sure, but how often did we see this mistake repeated iRL? Very often indeed and by educated men, seasoned politicians even, who had all that history and their own experience at their fingertips.

Even the Pale Mare, awful as it is, can have positive consequences - after all, situation of the lower classes in Europe was drastically improved after the Black Death.

Who cares about Stannis, feck Stannis, this is about Dany. Are we in the kindergarten or what?

Your last point, well that kind of logic takes the cake. By the way it is of course a ridiculous statement. If you mean by improved that because of massive depopulation there were less mouths to feed, yeah you know "hey always look on the bright side of life".

Meanwhile in reality, the Black Death is considered as the biggest socio-economic catastrophe in European history.

[Mikkel]

Who cares about Stannis, feck Stannis, this is about Dany. Are we in the kindergarten or what?

Your last point, well that kind of logic takes the take. By the way it is of course a ridiculous statement. If you mean by improved that because of massive depopulation there were less mouths to feed, yeah you know "hey always look on the bright side of life".

Meanwhile in reality, the Black Death is considered as the biggest socio-economic catastrophe in European history.

Yeah I'm somewhat flabbergasted at the claims that massive disease and death is supposed to be considered anything but a humanitarian catastrophe. It's true that the generations coming after the major outbreaks earned somewhat higher wages as there was a distinct lack of manpower, but at the same time it caused massive inflation as the prices of goods (including food) skyrocketed - producing or importing food / other goods became harder or impossible, a lack of workers and a widespread apathy (people seeking refuge in religion or whatever pleasures they could find) saw production plummet.

But I'm sure that the thought of marginally better wages for people a few generations later was foremost on the minds of the tens or hundreds of millions dying of the Black Plague, I mean it stands to reason doesn't it?

As for the attempted derail, not going to go there. Open another thread about Stannis/Dragonstone/torture if you wish, this is about none of those things.

[WierWood Wolf]

Well just look at the fate of Astapor. How many hundreds of thousands of people died or suffered greatly due to Daenerys actions there?

The slavers were evil but one can't look at the result of Daenerys actions at Astapor and not see at least some evil there. If for nothing else her example of attrocities against the (prior) ruling classes was replicated when the butcher leader needed a new army. Plus, I think depriving a city with its armed forces, putting a weak leadership and making them a pariah state is pretty bad actions, even if Daenerys had good intentions. Unfortunately, she fits perfectly the saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

So she had a responsibility to protect the societies in which she forced difficult changes upon.

As for the whole: A lot of slaves find freedom hard. That is an issue an an actual problem. And while that is true but on the long term (and for many in the short term) it is much better especially for a whole society than the institution of slavery- that is provided we don't have hell on earth in war atrocities. Because slavery in peace and hell on earth of war and massive suffering and casualties is the one thing that might be worse- at least for the people involved. What happened in Astapor was worse for the people of Astapor than the previous slavery. Now the sack of Mereen was bad, but they didn't have that Astapor like fate yet. As someone with a more threedimensional view of events than random slaves, fire and blood Daenerys is not only a symbol for hope for the people of the area including slaves but also a symbol to dread and of war and atrocities. Ultimately like many actual figures of history, she will be judged by the result of her actions, which so far are more on the negative side.

As for the intentions of the author, it is obvious he shows the consequences of war, the negatives of slavery and is showing difficult ethical dilemma's and he tries to introduce complexity into those issues.

You should take into account the many who died in gathering of these slaves by the slavers themselves or their agents.

[Kyoshi]

And meanwhile:"On Dragonstone he would gamble with the torturers and lend them a hand in the questioning of prisoners, especially if the prisoner were a young woman"That's from the "Sacrifice" chapter in ADwD. So, Stannis's administration on Dragonstone routinely practiced torture, but there is, of course, zero criticism of "the Mannis", while Dany is heaped with abuse for the wineseller's daughters, etc. It seems that Dany learned her lesson about the futility and abhorrence of torture pretty quick, too, while Stannis never did...As to Dany thinking that quick intervention and overthrow of the corrupt regime was all that was needed to free the people and give them better life - naive, sure, but how often did we see this mistake repeated iRL? Very often indeed and by educated men, seasoned politicians even, who had all that history and their own experience at their fingertips.Even the Pale Mare, awful as it is, can have positive consequences - after all, situation of the lower classes in Europe was drastically improved after the Black Death.

Exactly this. That's a great catch.

[WierWood Wolf]

Stay in Astapor until it's stable. This gives her time to put together an actual plan of what she wants to do with the other two cities....wherein she might have foreseen various other calamities that occured such as a city of bed slaves all following her because they have no other marketable skills other than being sex workers....and so on. She might have reached out to the Iron Bank...asked them to send some emissaries to help her with the economy.

The worst possible and most irresponsible thing she could have done is ride off into the sunset congratulating herself on freeing the slaves and then destroying two more cities with no more plan than she had the first time.

The whole economy was slave trade. SB has no agriculture to speak of. No trade goods other than slaves. It's a giant clearing house for chattel. There is no saving a place like Slavers Bay. I think it took her awhile to realize this fact.

[Arakan]

Exactly this. That's a great catch.

No it is a red herring to derail the thread.

And fingerpointing is a cheap escape when someone went out of arguments.

It smells of despair ;)

[OldGimletEye]

It's true that a person can make a good decision and the consequence of that decision will, at some time later, turn out bad. The opposite is also true. The fact of the matter is that people have to make decisions under uncertainty all the time. Most decisions are made without perfect information. However, just because nobody knows with absolute certainty what the consequences,at time t+1,......,t+n, of some decision, made time t, will be, it doesn't follow that it is not appropriate to criticize decisions when the consequences of those decisions turn out to be bad, particularly when those decisions are likely to turn out bad under the information known or the information that should have been known to the decision maker.

The thing about Dany is that she often get's lauded as being the second coming of Alexander The Great. But here is the thing about her: Dany isn't a particularly good planner. She doesn't do a good job of asking questions and anticipating problems. A trait of a good military leader is planning. It's true of course that once hostilities start, plans often have to be altered or changed. Things never work out perfectly. But, as Eisenhower said, “It's not the plan that is important, it's the planning .” The reason you plan is because it helps you to anticipate problems. So when a problem occurs, you're not caught with your pants down, looking like a chump.

A continual problem with Dany is that she doesn't ever seem to understand the probable consequences of her actions with information available to her or with information that ought to have been known to her. Dany wants Drogo to invade Westeros and then is shocked by the atrocities at the Lhazereen Village when Drogo decides to do what she wants. Dany leaves Astapor in complete disarray and then is shocked when the place falls apart because all civil authority has been destroyed. Dany wants to help the slaves of Slaver's Bay, then is bitten in the ass, again, when famine appears, along with a host of other problems.

We then have Dany wanting to invade Westeros to get revenge on the “usper dogs” without having one iota of a frickin clue about the circumstances around Robert's Rebellion. One really has to wonder if Dany will take the same approach to things, she has done thus far, when she finally gets to Westeros. If past performance is any indication of future performance, and I believe there is some correlation between them, then I would say probably yes.

Had Dany taken a step back and looked at the situation in Slaver's Bay, and done a reasonable amount of investigation and put some thought about the nature of things in Slaver's Bay, then a few things should have become apparent to her. A short list would be:

1. Slaver's Bay is heavily dependent on imports. Slaver's Bay is able to obtain those imports because it is able to export slaves.

2. If you destroy Slaver's Bay main export, then it will not be able to import vital goods, such as food.

3. A great deal of the imports are transported by sea.

4. A great number of civilizations have economic interest in the slave trade. A short list would include:

a. The Dothraki

b. New Ghis

c. Quarth

d. Volantis

e. Tolos

f. Elyria

5. Although Slaver's Bay doesn't seem to have a lot of arable land for food production, there does seem to be a few plantations around each city capable of producing food.

Also, if Dany had known anything about the nature of war or would have asked about it, she should have further realized:

1. A great deal of material would be destroyed. Such is the nature of war.

2. Food, crops, and farmland would likely get burned during the war. The destruction of food was a standard tactic in Medieval Warfare to stop invaders, since most Medieval Armies relied heavily on foraging for supplies

3.Any city taken by Dany would require some troops in order to be held.

From these very general facts Dany should have come to a few conclusion:

1.The first one would be that a severe and prolonged food shortage would be likely. This would follow from two facts. The first would be the nature of Slaver's Bay's economy which relies, apparently, quite heavily on foreign trade. The second would be because, inevitably, the food producing resources in Slaver's Bay would be damaged or destroyed by war.

2. A second conclusion that Dany should have realized was the need for Naval Forces. The reason for this is because most of the needed imports would have to be transported over the sea.

3. A third conclusion that Dany should have come to was she needed more troops. She would need troops to hold the three slaver cities. Also, she would likely need troops to secure the plantations around the cities. She would also need a mobil field army to counter threats in Slaver's bay. Finally, given all the civilizations or cities likely to be arrayed against her, it would be likely that she would be facing a considerable amount of enemy forces.

4. Lastly, Dany should have concluded that the task of emancipating Slaver's Bay was one that would likely take a lot of time. So much time, in fact, that Dany should have concluded that it would be highly unlikely for her to do the emancipation bit and then skip off to Westeros a couple of years later.

I know there is this argument out there, among some Dany fans, that Dany had no more responsibility than just to emancipate the slaves. Apparently, this argument relies on two propositions. The first one being that because slavery is so evil that any loss of human welfare as result of any emancipation shouldn't be considered. The second related argument is that Dany really owes no duty to the newly freed slaves beyond freeing them.

I do really think any any emancipation attempt, particularly one pursuant to war, needs to be thought of terms of a cost-benefit analysis. Slavery is evil, of course, because it harms human welfare. But, death and starvation harm human welfare too. Emancipation pursuant to war is almost certainly likely to impose high initial cost over several periods of time. If the additional human welfare caused by emancipation over several periods of time does not exceed the cost, then I think starting a war is not a particularly good or wise idea. Also, the attempted emancipation needs to be weighted by its probability of success.

Also, if you try to help somebody, there is a duty to act reasonably, so as not to make the person or class of persons worse off. The idea that Dany owes the slaves nothing beyond emancipation is absurd.. For one, the slaves have no way to defend themselves. There maybe a lot of them, but they wouldn't be anything other than an unorganized mob. They wouldn't stand much of chance against any military force. Also given the nature of Slaver's Bay economy and the destruction Dany brought to it, the Slaves simply can not feed themselves at least in the short or medium term. Also, it's completely foolish to believe the slaves could even govern themselves, immediately after their emancipation.

It has been suggested here by some that the notion that Dany should have thought of some economic alternative to Slaver's Bay slave exporting economy is "weak". I say that suggestion is absurd. Anybody in Dany's shoes, with a sufficient grasp of the reality in Slaver's Bay, would have concluded that a campaign of emancipation, brought to pursuant to an armed conflict, was likely to bring severe food shortages. Once you remove Slaver Bay's main export, it is no longer capable of importing needed goods. And, again, a reasonable person would have concluded that an armed conflict would likely damage the economic resources, to include food producing ones, in Slaver's Bay. What Dany really needed was a short term economic plan and long term one. In order for Slaver's Bay to sustain itself as a free, non-slave society, it would need to produce items which it could export . Or, in the alternative, it would need to grow its own internal economy to the point where it became less reliant upon foreign trade. I would think that possibly, Braavos or Myr could provide possible long term models. In reality, however, developing a new economy in Slaver's Bay would have taken some time. Accordingly, Dany would have needed a short term plan. I believe the most viable short term plan would have been for Dany to obtain funds, in the form of loans, in order to obtain needed goods, much like John did with the Iron Bank.

I realize that leaving Slaver's Bay untouched would have been a really shitty choice. But usually, when faced with two shitty decisions, you pick the least shitty one.

[Arakan]

The whole economy was slave trade. SB has no agriculture to speak of. No trade goods other than slaves. It's a giant clearing house for chattel. There is no saving a place like Slavers Bay. I think it took her awhile to realize this fact.

So what is the solution? Burn it all down to ashes? If "there is no saving a place like Slaver's Bay" why bother in the first place? And when she did bother and it misfired she should at least be called out for it. All things that happened in Astapor are ultimately her responsibility.

I dont blame her for acting but it is this constant denial of her die-hard ultras (not even regular fans) that she bears any responsibility at all which is frustrating.

Hopefully in the next books she cries out loud a big "I fucked up big time in Astapor" so that this topic can be settled...

[mormont]

Had Dany taken a step back and looked at the situation in Slaver's Bay, and done a reasonable amount of investigation and put some thought about the nature of things in Slaver's Bay, then a few things should have become apparent to her. A short list would be:[snip for length]

So what's your conclusion?

That Dany ought to have waited until she had all of these resources and solutions to all of those problems before doing anything? The chances of her acquiring them at all, given her starting position, are slim. At best she might have been able to do it but it would have taken years.

So, either temporarily or permanently, you're advocating inaction. Dany should have walked away, is the inevitable conclusion of all this verbiage. Now, if that's your view, fine. I think that would have been immoral and, let's be honest, is something you are simply never going to see a protagonist in a fantasy series do. You're not a protagonist if you don't take action! But the point is, you might not have criticised her for walking away: but I think most people would have. I would have. It would have been a character-defining moment. And the type of character she'd be if she'd simply walked away from systemised suffering is not the kind of character people generally admire. The cold, dispassionate calculation about the fate of others that you're advocating is not really something many readers would empathise with.

[Arakan]

<snip>

A brilliant post and analysis, one of the greatest I have read here in my time. But just wait until someone will come out, crying OMG.SLAVERY.EVIL ;).

Also it was great you showed in detail why the US abolition of slavery is indeed NOT a good comparison to Dany's action in Slaver's Bay.

One thing I want to add is that of course people will come out now and claim that she installed the Council in Astapor. But this was at best a half-hearted attempt to make her feel good. I think you showed why it was pointless in itself.

[HexMachina]

She knows Astapor was a mistake. It is what leads her to settle in Meereen, setting aside her goal of the Iron Throne.

[WierWood Wolf]

So what is the solution? Burn it all down to ashes? If "there is no saving a place like Slaver's Bay" why bother in the first place? And when she did bother and it misfired she should at least be called out for it. All things that happened in Astapor are ultimately her responsibility.

I dont blame her for acting but it is this constant denial of her die-hard ultras (not even regular fans) that she bears any responsibility at all which is frustrating.

Hopefully in the next books she cries out loud a big "I fucked up big time in Astapor" so that this topic can be settled...

What I'm saying is there is no solution. Staying there with the Unsullied isn't the solution. Without the slave trade the whole of SB is screwed. I'm not absolving Dany in any way. But the idea of her staying in Astapor isn't going to stabilize the city. Dany pulled the plug on a terminally sick patient by abolishing their only viable form of income.

Btw she has already admitted to ducking up in Astapor. That's why she stays in Merreen.

[OldGimletEye]

So what's your conclusion?

That Dany ought to have waited until she had all of these resources and solutions to all of those problems before doing anything? The chances of her acquiring them at all, given her starting position, are slim. At best she might have been able to do it but it would have taken years.

So, either temporarily or permanently, you're advocating inaction. Dany should have walked away, is the inevitable conclusion of all this verbiage. Now, if that's your view, fine. I think that would have been immoral and, let's be honest, is something you are simply never going to see a protagonist in a fantasy series do. You're not a protagonist if you don't take action! But the point is, you might not have criticised her for walking away: but I think most people would have. I would have. It would have been a character-defining moment. And the type of character she'd be if she'd simply walked away from systemised suffering is not the kind of character people generally admire. The cold, dispassionate calculation about the fate of others that you're advocating is not really something many readers would empathise with.

I thought my conclusion was clear from the end of the post. I wouldn't have acted I had been Dany, for fear that the probability of failure would be too high. If Dany wants to get into the emancipation business, then it needs to become a full time job.

ETA:

My cold dispassionate calculation would have caused me to file serious objections with Drogo about his intended plans concerning the Lhazareen Village.

[Arakan]

So what's your conclusion?

That Dany ought to have waited until she had all of these resources and solutions to all of those problems before doing anything? The chances of her acquiring them at all, given her starting position, are slim. At best she might have been able to do it but it would have taken years.

So, either temporarily or permanently, you're advocating inaction. Dany should have walked away, is the inevitable conclusion of all this verbiage. Now, if that's your view, fine. I think that would have been immoral and, let's be honest, is something you are simply never going to see a protagonist in a fantasy series do. You're not a protagonist if you don't take action! But the point is, you might not have criticised her for walking away: but I think most people would have. I would have. It would have been a character-defining moment. And the type of character she'd be if she'd simply walked away from systemised suffering is not the kind of character people generally admire. The cold, dispassionate calculation about the fate of others that you're advocating is not really something many readers would empathise with.

Even the French Revolutionaries didnt act headless. It is immoral to act without ever considering any consequences.

These are basic human lessons which parents teach their children all the time. You cannot just "do" something and later wonder or complain why it backfired. This is what the word "responsibility" in its core mean.

As people bring RL examples all the time, so will I now...this is what happened to Iraq and when people like Rumsfeld make an astonished face and try to absolve themselves from any responsibility I turn away in disgust.

ETA: why is it immoral when someone alone doesnt change all of the world? In RL no one would demand from you or me that we change all of the Saudi Arabian society only because we have some Business going on there. I dont get the logic ESPECIALLY because people here on this Forum take a special pride how "realistic" ASOIAF is.

[Arakan]

What I'm saying is there is no solution. Staying there with the Unsullied isn't the solution. Without the slave trade the whole of SB is screwed. I'm not absolving Dany in any way. But the idea of her staying in Astapor isn't going to stabilize the city. Dany pulled the plug on a terminally sick patient by abolishing their only viable form of income.

Btw she has already admitted to ducking up in Astapor. That's why she stays in Merreen.

I dont disagree with you but regarding your last sentence the big shit happens in Astapor after she already had decided to stay in Mereen. I admit that by then she couldnt do anything about it anymore.

All you say is correct, but why is it for some so hard to admit that she fucked up big time.

[Kyoshi]

No it is a red herring to derail the thread.

And fingerpointing is a cheap escape when someone went out of arguments.

It smells of despair ;)

Ah, we're back to the personal attacks. All is well with the universe again.

It's been brought up many times in this thread that her decision to leave a council in charge of Astapor was foolish. An analogy was later made to better explain just how foolish this decision was: that lords don't just leave a maester to protect a castle, IIRC several other characters were referenced as having made better decisions than Dany's parallel in that regard. It has also been brought up several times in this thread that her practice of torture is another symptom of the colossal failure that is the Emancipation of Slaver's Bay. It doesn't seem so out of context that another one of her actions have an analogy to demonstrate just how biased this debate is. You have passionately argued against using RL examples as they are anachronistic, you are now arguing against using AWOIAF characters as they are red herrings, this debate simply cannot survive if we choose to operate in a bubble.

[Hrafntýr]

I think that the books have made abundantly clear that every form of government available can entail horrific cost of human life and misery. Whether it's the "stable" economy in SB that comes with the constant enslavement of free people, or the feudal system in Westeros subject to decisions of royalty that can result in brutal war (seriously, conditions in Westeros right now, especially the Riverlands, are dire, and with Winter now descending, and, in my opinion, a plague about to arrive), those in power make decisions. When it is not wartime it's easy to have the illusion that things are just operating "naturally," that you've achieved a self-sustaining system in which nobody has to do anything, but in fact maintaining the status quo is also a form of action, or decision-making, it's just one that doesn't emerge to consciousness as an either-or choice. I mean, do we think that the slavers woke up each day to consider, "I wonder if carrying out my usual activities will result in more human suffering than if I acted otherwise?"? Do we think they ought to have done so, and why or why not?

I am not trying to paint Dany's decision as some obvious good; like Dany, I recognized (after the fact, I'll admit) that her actions contributed to a total collapse in Astapor (though I wouldn't say she is solely responsible for how things played out; those who chose to stay behind, and particularly those she set up to rule, also made certain decisions). I wonder: how many people when they first read the Astapor chapters were initially like, "Fuck yeah!" when they saw Dany take the city from the slavers? How many saw immediately that the city was doomed? Even given the power of the slave economy in SB, I don't think it was inevitable that things would play out as they did. As I suggested above, the novels give us numerous examples of rulers who simply cannot possibly account for the numerous factors at play in a given situation: Robb was a fine battle commander but failed to imagine the ambitions and strategies of other "players" like Roose and Tywin, ditto Cersei/Tywin with Littlefinger; of course Ned deciding to do the "dishonorable" thing and confess treason, only to have Joffrey behead him shows that even a decision that ought to save lives can go horribly awry.

I also think that David Selig made a fine point upthread, noting that the masters were the ones perfectly happy to leave Astapor undefended, when they agreed to sell every last Unsullied to Dany. Didn't they know, too, that, say, the Dothraki or the Volantenes might find them a tempting target? Perhaps they had enough accumulated wealth to buy off any would-be attackers (in particular the Dothraki, I'm not so sure about other slaver city-states), but a dragon isn't an obviously fungible asset, indeed, a baby dragon seems as much a target, inviting conquest.

[Cas Stark]

It seems an odd conclusion that Dany making a plan and attempting to marshal sufficient resources would take too long, so it was better to charge in RIGHT NOW with no plan and no resources and if it all turns out in disaster, at least she tried RIGHT NOW. "OMG injustice we have to fix it RIGHT NOW" almost always results in a poor outcome because, much like Dany, it is based on emotion and satisfying the feelings the helper/liberator/justice giver and not any type of analysis of the situation.

Staying in Astapor a few months would not have harmed her cause in any way and might have led to a much better outcome. Leaving some of her unsullied there to keep the peace, the same.

And, I'm not convinced that her actions have in any material way helped the majority of people in Slaver's Bay and that includes the freed slaves. Free and dead isn't much to cheer about.

[Kyoshi]

<snip>

I was one of those who cheered when Dracarys happened. I can honestly say that I din't foresee the aftermath. Naive I know, I guess I just didn't expect the other city states to take it so "personally". I also didn't account for people like Cleon.

[Nictarion]

I cheered for Dracarys! I still cheer for Dracarys! One of the best moments in story.