R+L=J v.94

[A Bastard Snow]

Isn't it pretty widely held that Rhaegar actually WAS plotting against Aerys? He pretty much admitted to Jaime that he was planning at the least a bloodless coup. I think this makes the question of who's orders etc. easier to deal with.

Rhaegar would need at least a few of the KG in on it. Dayne was Rhaegar's bestest pal and would be first co-conspirator. Varys suggested to Aerys that the tourney at Harrenhal was an opportunity for Rhaegar to plot; that suggests Whent would have been in on it at that stage too (Harrenhal is the seat of House Whent). Hightower told Jaime that KG are meant to obey rather than judge kings, but maybe when he was sent to find Rhaegar, he was persuaded by the prince and his two fellow KG that what they were planning was necessary, or at the least not the most urgent thing to deal with. Perhaps staying with the other 2 KG to protect Lyanna was part of the deal he made to persuade Rhaegar to lead the King's army at the battle of the trident: "If your schemes are truly not treasonous, then prove it to me by defending the throne" or similar.

This possibility makes sense of the orders question: they are obeying Rhaegar because as far as they are concerned the fix is in, and he's the king-in-waiting.

This also gives a nice little spin on Aerys keeping Elia and the kids at KL: not just hostages for Dornish cooperation, but hostages for Rhaegar's cooperation too. We know Aerys was paranoid about Rhaegar.

We also get more poignancy to the TOJ episode: Ned learns that the rebellion was a mistake. Not just Lyanna going willingly, but Aerys being deposed anyway. Rhaegar's death becomes a tragic error rather than furthering the rebel's cause, deaths at the TOJ are all ultimately pointless. Ned comes away with a sense that the rebellion was a deeply foolish mistake costing thousands of lives because of a failure of communication, and fears for the results of letting that information become known. Reason indeed for his years of sleepless nights looking back on what happened.

Yea the 3 KGs at the Tower of Joy were loyal to Rhaegar else they would have taken Lyanna to their King.Even if Rhaegar ordered them not to the only one they are sworn to obey is the King.The fact that they kept Rhaegar/Lyanna's location a secret from their other brothers and their king shows that they firmly supported Rhaegar.

[A Bastard Snow]

By the way is there any reference to how large the tower was?Not sure how just Ned/Howland could pull a tower down.Maybe they used horses to help them?

*Sorry for the double post btw*

[ArabellaVidal]

I don't think they hung around for a week until she died. If that was the case the bodies of their fellow warriors and the 3 KG had been lying around for a week as well (must have smelled nasty!), because they buried them under the rocks after taking down the tower. And as long as Lyanna was still alive, they couldn't break down the tower. I don't think Ned would have allowed his sister to be moved and be taken on the road somewhere after just having given birth. And the stench of bodies lying around in open air would have just been unbearable.

So, that means she died not long after their arrival. Breaking down the tower does not only function the burial of the others, but also the destruction of the place where his sister had been confined and lost her life. It's as if Ned wanted to erase the past, the affair, the death of his father and brother, not so much out of bitterness, but to be done with it and make a new start.

Anyhow, that means it's safe to assume that Jon was somewhere between 5-7 days old when Ned arrived and no younger than 7 days when Lyanna eventually succumbed to most probably sepsis as a consequence of puerperal fever. Also this does not interfere with the bloody bed. Hermorrhaging can be one of the side complications of the infection of puerperal fever, because the infection basically prevents the womb to heal and make a new lining.

Judging from Ned's extreme reaction, it is highly likely that she died soon after the confrontation with the KG.

Just for the sake of argument, though, Ned and 'they' wouldn't have needed to pull down the tower to bury the bodies. All he would have needed were the appropriate tools which seems to be a stretch that they would have had. The stones in the tower were used to build cairns, which they could have piled later on top of the graves. But without burial tools, all of this is just fun speculation. Or are cairns piled directly on top of bodies?

Seven graves, right? Appropriate.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Muppet hate, well that's a new one. I am just going to mark that down on the checklist. Hates Muppets, comes right after Dolls and Sardaukar, it's an interesting list to say the least.

I got something to make you happy. Howland Reed was the knight of the laughing tree, Rhaegar was a prophecy junky, and Robert was a much better match for Lyanna than Rhaegar.

Or we could discuss with Lady G the evil that is Sansa Stark.

http://rebloggy.com/post/game-of-thrones-jedi-sansa-stark-littlefinger-sansa-lord-baelish-baelish-darth-s/87834875130

:tantrum:

:fencing:

:box:

:spank:

:whip:

Now ask me what I really think... :cool4:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

What is causing confusion with the queen regent thing is that there's Cersei, who is both Queen Dowager and the regent. I am pretty certain no queen automagically becomes regent in the circumstances above, but through diplomacy and power play.

Actually, all of them are "black of hair" and no mistake. And allthewhile the Jon Snow we see in the show seems to have black hair, the one in the book has dark brown hair, just as Ned and Arya do.

Agreed on both.

Genealogy does not a regent make. Both IRL and in ASoIaF, a regent would be appointed by the previous king (i.e. Robert naming Ned) or by a council (i.e. numerous Acts of Regency passed by the British Parliament in its long history providing for a Regent in the event of a minority monarch-- this was often but not always the mother of the minor, and it should be noted that in those cases the mother was a Dowager Queen or Dowager Princess of Wales.) Fwiw, currently British law provides that a regent be the next person in the line of succession who is over 18. Applying that principal in Westeros would mean Rhaella who, as Queen Dowager and the sole surviving adult Targaryen, has always been whom I assume would have been chosen.

On the second-- don't forget the blue eyes :)

[Jon Weirgaryen]

On the second-- don't forget the blue eyes :)

baby blue skies? That, too, only the OP was just about the hair.

[BearQueen87]

Yea the 3 KGs at the Tower of Joy were loyal to Rhaegar else they would have taken Lyanna to their King.Even if Rhaegar ordered them not to the only one they are sworn to obey is the King.The fact that they kept Rhaegar/Lyanna's location a secret from their other brothers and their king shows that they firmly supported Rhaegar.

They would have taken Lyanna to Aerys, who was burning people alive? More specifically burning Lyanna's father and strangling her brother? They would have taken a VERY pregnant lady over bumpy road? A very pregnant lady who was obviously quite ill already? And Hightower remained loyal to Aerys to the end but still they stayed.

By the way is there any reference to how large the tower was?Not sure how just Ned/Howland could pull a tower down.Maybe they used horses to help them?

*Sorry for the double post btw*

They would have had a several horses: Ned's, Howlands, the other 5 Northern companions, and likely one or two the KG or servants were using.

[addicted to snow]

Robb had already came of age, thus he doesn't need a queen regent.

And Rhaella was still queen according to Ned, when he brought up that she and Prince Viserys flee to Dragonstone, you should go to him since he should be next in line next to Rhaegar (Aerys, Aegon, and Rhaegar being dead).

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out.

But the 3 KGs refuse, even pump up their chest with pride, saying they do not flee, they swore a vow (vow to protect the King, or heir to the throne). All this time they were still recognizing Aerys as their King and not Robert, the usurper.

It makes sense that in their eyes they still consider Aerys King, yet obeyed Rhaegar. But at what point did they know the sack of KL and that Aerys had died? because if it was too late to go to Aerys they are duty bound to go to Viserys, at least one of them must fulfill their oath to the fullest, to protect Viserys, who is now King. Yet, they did not.

Because someone in that tower had a higher claim to their vow and their primary duty.

This is what I never understood about people thinking that Jon was the legit king… If Rhaegar died, then Aerys Died, and Viserys still lived, then there was no way for Jon to be the king, unless Viserys turned down the position or was incapacitated (this is acting under the assumption that he is Rheagar's son)… You can bet that King's Guard were intimately familiar with the rules that governed the line of succession, so when they say "We Swore a Vow" they must be referring to something that we the readers are no privy to at this time...

Lyanna was not a Queen so she can not be Queen-regent. Lyanna was a Princess, she was a princess-regent if she was the regent. She could have also just been the regent

Wasn't Lyanna too young to serve a Regent? she would have required a Regent herself… At some point, Cersei told Tommen that the Reign was hers until is 16th name day (I think 16th, though I am not entirely certain)...

[sj4iy]

This is what I never understood about people thinking that Jon was the legit king… If Rhaegar died, then Aerys Died, and Viserys still lived, then there was no way for Jon to be the king, unless Viserys turned down the position or was incapacitated (this is acting under the assumption that he is Rheagar's son)… You can bet that King's Guard were intimately familiar with the rules that governed the line of succession, so when they say "We Swore a Vow" they must be referring to something that we the readers are no privy to at this time...

Wasn't Lyanna too young to serve a Regent? she would have required a Regent herself… At some point, Cersei told Tommen that the Reign was hers until is 16th name day (I think 16th, though I am not entirely certain)...

Wasn't she 16 when she died?

But you have to consider...she would have been viewed as a woman if she could bear children.

Also, any legitimate son of Rhaegar's comes before Viserys in succession.

[BearQueen87]

This is what I never understood about people thinking that Jon was the legit king… If Rhaegar died, then Aerys Died, and Viserys still lived, then there was no way for Jon to be the king, unless Viserys turned down the position or was incapacitated (this is acting under the assumption that he is Rheagar's son)… You can bet that King's Guard were intimately familiar with the rules that governed the line of succession, so when they say "We Swore a Vow" they must be referring to something that we the readers are no privy to at this time...

A son comes before a brother. The only way Viserys would be king after Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dies is if Rhaegar had no other legitimate children. So no, Viserys would not have come before any male child of Rhaegar's.

Wasn't Lyanna too young to serve a Regent? she would have required a Regent herself… At some point, Cersei told Tommen that the Reign was hers until is 16th name day (I think 16th, though I am not entirely certain)...

I think it's more likely that the real regent would be Ned, not Lyanna.

[BearQueen87]

Double post.

[WhiteOwl18]

This is what I never understood about people thinking that Jon was the legit king… If Rhaegar died, then Aerys Died, and Viserys still lived, then there was no way for Jon to be the king, unless Viserys turned down the position or was incapacitated (this is acting under the assumption that he is Rheagar's son)… You can bet that King's Guard were intimately familiar with the rules that governed the line of succession, so when they say "We Swore a Vow" they must be referring to something that we the readers are no privy to at this time...

Wasn't Lyanna too young to serve a Regent? she would have required a Regent herself… At some point, Cersei told Tommen that the Reign was hers until is 16th name day (I think 16th, though I am not entirely certain)...

As BearQueen87 said, that is not how succession works. It goes king’s eldest son, that son’s eldest son, his second son and so forth. Only when all the sons of the eldest son are exhausted does it go to the king’s second son. The death of the king’s eldest son only removes him from the line of succession, everyone else keeps their place.

Here’s a real-life example that has been used in these forums many times: Edward the Black Prince was Edward III’s eldest son. He died before his father. When Edward III died it was the Black Prince’s eldest surviving son who succeeded him (and became Richard II), not the king’s second surviving son, John of Gaunt.

Another example: Louis XIV’s eldest son, Louis the Grand Dauphin, died while his father was still alive. The Grand Dauphin’s eldest son, Louis, Duke of Burgundy, died less than a year later. When the king died he was succeeded by his great-grandson, the Duke of Burgundy’s eldest surviving son, who became Louis XV.

In the same way, if Prince Charles dies while Elizabeth II is still alive, Prince William will be the one to succeed his grandmother, not Prince Andrew.

So, bottom line, Rhaegar's death only removed him from the line of succession. Everyone else kept their place. When he died, Aegon became Crown Prince, not Viserys.

[Arlan of Pennytree]

Me:So you are saying Aerys did NOT order Jaime to remain @ the RK?

The day had been windy when he said farwell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. "Your grace," Jamie had pleaded, "Let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine.

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than our cousin Robert. He wants you close so Tywin can't harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."

Jamie's anger had risen up in his throat. "I am not a crutch, I am a knight of the kingsguard."

"Then guard the king," SerJon Darry snapped at him. "When you donned that cloak you promised to obey."aFfC-chapter page 133

I am not actually say it... I am quoting it, Yes, quoting Rhaegar's conformation of Aerys's order, I was offering you a correction. thanks for clearing that up.

You:that is not a valid question they were obeying,

Me: What were they obeying if not an order or command? A quaint request? a heartfelt plea?? "Hey you guys" Rhaegar said begging from his knees, "I know you're KG and I can order you around, but instead I'm going to plead for a favor, with sugar and kisses on top! Oh please say yes!!!"

Are you now asking who gave the order? (Is Jaime 'they', or @ ToJ? No, you know this)

aFfC-chapter page 133 No, you implied an order WAS NOT given. . .AFfC, p.133 has nothing to do w/ToJ or Jaime L. They is not He, or vise versa. Nice dodge though!

or

Are you still asking who they were guarding?

If the queen had commanded me (Selmy) to protect Hizdahr, i would have no choice but to obey.--aDwD 857-858 paperback This question, while being repetitive, is no less moot (unless you want to put yourself on the line and offer an opinion on this subject).

Congratulations, you've dodged a contradiction of yours by pretending to misinterpret a question poised. If I were to run for public office, you're hired as press liaison!

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Yeah I know it ties into his feeling of not belonging which he experiences multiple times in the books even in his dreams. I was more interested in the last line by Martin. He's related but apart, it's a continuing theme in the story.

Well it could be a dragon dream or it could be a green dream like Jojen has and Bran, Bran saw a dragon in a wolf dream, was that a dragon dream as well? Bloodraven also appears in green dreams. Not impossible to be a dragon dream but not a fact either. That's Martin for you.

When did Bran see a dragon in a dream? I dont remember that....

[Jon Weirgaryen]

When did Bran see a dragon in a dream? I dont remember that....

It's the first big crow dream, the chapter AGoT 17 Bran III, where Bran sees practically everything, also "He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the JadeSea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise."

[Ygrain]

I've come across something that makes me wonder:

The smell reminded Jaime Lannister of the pass below the Golden Tooth, where he had won a glorious victory in the first days of the war. On the morning after the battle, the crows had feasted on victors and vanquished alike, as once they had feasted on Rhaegar Targaryen after the Trident.

Why does Jaime think that Rhaegar's body was left to the ravens or taken care of so much later? We know from GRRM that Rhaegar was cremated; was this not a common knowledge in Westeros? When Cersei sees Aurane Waters, she thinks for a moment that he looks like Rhaegar come from the ashes, so she either knows, or presumes, cremation. Why this contradiction?

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Easy, that one. The "On the morning after the battle" is not part of Rhaegar's body's fate, but about the battle at the Tooth.

Rhaegar's body was cremated, but not the very moment he fell:

The troops had to be rallied where that was possible, and the message of Rhaegar's death and the KG's defeat and armistice be made public everywhere or otherwise the Targaryen army command to flee the grounds to be made public and obeyed where possible.

The battle grounds would be looted next, hopefully some survivors and maesters to be brought together to save them. Robert and then Ser Barristan be examples.

New commands for pursuing the fleeing royalists and to rally again outside King's Landing given and Ned as commander be dispatched.

Then finally, honoring the fallen noble enemy "heroes", if that was what happened,

and Rhaegar being cremated.

Indented part is the time for the crows feasting on Rhaegar, unless his body was given a scarecrow as guard.

[Alia of the knife]

I've come across something that makes me wonder:

The smell reminded Jaime Lannister of the pass below the Golden Tooth, where he had won a glorious victory in the first days of the war. On the morning after the battle, the crows had feasted on victors and vanquished alike, as once they had feasted on Rhaegar Targaryen after the Trident.

Why does Jaime think that Rhaegar's body was left to the ravens or taken care of so much later? We know from GRRM that Rhaegar was cremated; was this not a common knowledge in Westeros? When Cersei sees Aurane Waters, she thinks for a moment that he looks like Rhaegar come from the ashes, so she either knows, or presumes, cremation. Why this contradiction?

I also wonder who?

If one takes the notorious desecration of Richard III's body after the Battle of Bosworth, I think Robert, or his men would have no issues desecrating Rhaegars.

[PrettyPig]

I've come across something that makes me wonder:

The smell reminded Jaime Lannister of the pass below the Golden Tooth, where he had won a glorious victory in the first days of the war. On the morning after the battle, the crows had feasted on victors and vanquished alike, as once they had feasted on Rhaegar Targaryen after the Trident.

Why does Jaime think that Rhaegar's body was left to the ravens or taken care of so much later? We know from GRRM that Rhaegar was cremated; was this not a common knowledge in Westeros? When Cersei sees Aurane Waters, she thinks for a moment that he looks like Rhaegar come from the ashes, so she either knows, or presumes, cremation. Why this contradiction?

That SSM has always confounded me. "Cremated in the tradition of fallen Targaryens" implies some sort of ritual/ceremony. But, when and where did this happen? Rhaegar died in the Riverlands, and his forces were scattered. His KG were dead (Darry) or severely wounded (Selmy). I can't see Robert allowing Rhaegar's corpse to be carted back to KL for a proper Targ cremation/interrment by his family; I also have trouble believing that what was left of royalist forces would know Targ death ritual OR be brave enough to conduct it on the battlefield.

Did Ned do it?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

That SSM has always confounded me. "Cremated in the tradition of fallen Targaryens" implies some sort of ritual/ceremony. But, when and where did this happen? Rhaegar died in the Riverlands, and his forces were scattered. His KG were dead (Darry) or severely wounded (Selmy). I can't see Robert allowing Rhaegar's corpse to be carted back to KL for a proper Targ cremation/interrment by his family; I also have trouble believing that what was left of royalist forces would know Targ death ritual OR be brave enough to conduct it on the battlefield.

Did Ned do it?

Or Jon Arryn.