R+L=J v.94

[Alia of the knife]

So just to recap; things in Lyanna's tomb:

1) Rhaegar's harp

2) Rhaegar's armor

3) Targaryen wedding cloak

4) Rhaegar's horse

5) A letter to Jon

6) A dragon egg

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7) Lyanna Stark

Forgot Rhaegars sword (Geez, any room for Lyanna)?

[BearQueen87]

No, everyone has it all wrong.

Lyanna's tomb is the final resting place of none other than Jimmy Hoffa.

Naturally. He's the Great Other

Forgot Rhaegars sword (Geez, any room for Lyanna)?

Oh of course! How could I forget the sword! It's Lightbringer, isn't it?!

8) All of Ashara Dayne's lovers.

ALL of them?! Ned, Brandon, KG Martell, Howland Reed (who is supposed be alive?!), her brother, and random stranger #4561

[JonCon's Red Beard]

ALL of them?! Ned, Brandon, KG Martell, Howland Reed (who is supposed be alive?!), her brother, and random stranger #4561

Yes.

11) Also, all of her alleged children.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

So just to recap; things in Lyanna's tomb:

1) Rhaegar's harp

2) Rhaegar's armor

3) Targaryen wedding cloak

4) Rhaegar's horse

5) A letter to Jon

6) A dragon egg

.

.

.

.

.

.

7) Lyanna Stark

Tgat last one was quite a surprise! O_O

ALL of them?! Ned, Brandon, KG Martell, Howland Reed (who is supposed be alive?!), her brother, and random stranger #4561

And that's why Howland hasn't shown up yet!

Now everything makes sense!

[Arlan of Pennytree]

As to Jon being the PTWP, me'thinks it will play out something like this: Jon is stabbed and is fading to black @ the end of Dance. Perhaps he dies, or is on the very edge of death. There have been theories that he will warg into ghost (this is prob because we have an example of another warg warging into an animal (a wolf, no less) at his death), but I really don't see this benefiting the story.

I think it will be the opposite; Ghost's life and spirit will give life back to Jon. We know the wolves mourn when the Stark children are injured. Robb died, but Grey Wind was prob already dead by the time he did, so this is uncharted territory, so to speak. It's said many times the wolves are a part of the children, that they are their protectors, that they were sent by the Old Gods.

**All this will be proved true I think as Jon lay dead, smoke rising from his wounds as the salt of Bowen Marsh's tears fall to the same Icy ground ser Paterk, in his bloody, starry cloak lay dead. Ghost mourning with one last howl, will will lay down beside Jon and die, to give his lifeforce to Jon. Jon will rise from being dead as a stone, a dragon.

Dragons in Targaryen prophecies are always people with the 'dragon blood', so this 'stone dragon' in the prophecy could be a person as well. . .

**this is a popular theory, I am not claiming to have thunk it up myself (although I did add the last little part).

[UnmaskedLurker]

As to Jon being the PTWP, me'thinks it will play out something like this: Jon is stabbed and is fading to black @ the end of Dance. Perhaps he dies, or is on the very edge of death. There have been theories that he will warg into ghost (this is prob because we have an example of another warg warging into an animal (a wolf, no less) at his death), but I really don't see this benefiting the story.

I think it will be the opposite; Ghost's life and spirit will give life back to Jon. We know the wolves mourn when the Stark children are injured. Robb died, but Grey Wind was prob already dead by the time he did, so this is uncharted territory, so to speak. It's said many times the wolves are a part of the children, that they are their protectors, that they were sent by the Old Gods.

**All this will be proved true I think as Jon lay dead, smoke rising from his wounds as the salt of Bowen Marsh's tears fall to the same Icy ground ser Paterk, in his bloody, starry cloak lay dead. Ghost mourning with one last howl, will will lay down beside Jon and die, to give his lifeforce to Jon. Jon will rise from being dead as a stone, a dragon.

Dragons in Targaryen prophecies are always people with the 'dragon blood', so this 'stone dragon' in the prophecy could be a person as well. . .

**this is a popular theory, I am not claiming to have thunk it up myself (although I did add the last little part).

How does this version of events square with Mel's vision: "Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again"?

[Alia of the knife]

Now that we've covered what might be in Lyannas tomb, I wonder where her shield might have got to?

Somewhere in Rhaegars room?

[Consigliere]

Anything that isn't in Lyanna's tomb is at Greywater Watch.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Now that we've covered what might be in Lyannas tomb, I wonder where her shield might have got to?

Somewhere in Rhaegars room?

My guess is Harrenhal, and that it will turn up when we next see the place ;)

As for Lyanna's tomb we've left out the Holy Grail!

( ---and perhaps the inter-dimensional portal Ygrain mentioned might shed some light on things like Atlantis, the Roanoke Colony, El Dorado, the Dutchman's goldmine and the lost tribes of Israel :rolleyes: )

[UnmaskedLurker]

Maybe Howland Reed is the Doctor.

On a more R+L=J note--I was at Lollapalooza all weekend, so I only caught bits and pieces of the thread. I think it was Honey Chicken that was arguing that R+L=J was not "hidden" enough to be clearly true. Was HC ever convinced that GRRM never intended to make it that impossible to figure out (he did use it as a test for D&D which would not have made sense if he did not think someone could actually figure it out)?

[BearQueen87]

On a more R+L=J note--I was at Lollapalooza all weekend, so I only caught bits and pieces of the thread. I think it was Honey Chicken that was arguing that R+L=J was not "hidden" enough to be clearly true. Was HC ever convinced that GRRM never intended to make it that impossible to figure out (he did use it as a test for D&D which would not have made sense if he did not think someone could actually figure it out)?

Agreed. We always use the "butler" SSM when discussing R+L = J but of course it can be used for more than just where the clues are leading. If the clues are leading you some place, it means there ARE clues. GRRM wrote a clever mystery but one he intended his audience to piece together.

[Rider14]

Howland Reed will resolve a bunch of these questions in the next book. Whatever's not in the tomb, he has it. He has to have some physical evidence of some sort to back it up.

No one found it because his castle (Greywater?) moves. Right?

- Dan

[BearQueen87]

Howland Reed will resolve a bunch of these questions in the next book. Whatever's not in the tomb, he has it. He has to have some physical evidence of some sort to back it up.

No one found it because his castle (Greywater?) moves. Right?

- Dan

We know Howland Reed will come into play eventually, though no one is quite sure how. I don't think he's going to sit Jon down and explain Jon's heritage. It's too "You are the once and future king," for GRRM. I'm not sure if Howland has a physical object (though maybe he has the KotLT shield?)

And yes, Howland's castle moves.

[sweetsunray]

On a more R+L=J note--I was at Lollapalooza all weekend, so I only caught bits and pieces of the thread. I think it was Honey Chicken that was arguing that R+L=J was not "hidden" enough to be clearly true. Was HC ever convinced that GRRM never intended to make it that impossible to figure out (he did use it as a test for D&D which would not have made sense if he did not think someone could actually figure it out)?

And didn't GRRM originally believe he could tell the story in 3 books. It's completely logical to give the main clues in the first of the 3 books.

[UnmaskedLurker]

And didn't GRRM originally believe he could tell the story in 3 books. It's completely logical to give the main clues in the first of the 3 books.

Right--he originally intended only 3 books. So unless there are even more well-hidden clues in GoT that even more persuasively point in a different direction, I am not sure what else people expect. The bottom line for me is that R+L=J is too hidden in GoT to be a red herring but once all the clues are parsed thoroughly, too persuasive not to be correct.

[sabrecmc]

I always think of Greywater Watch as Howl's Moving Castle in my head.

Anyway, I was at a pool party over the weekend and discussing the books with someone who was on the third book. He'd watched the series and wanted to read the books. He had picked up tons of detail, knew names and places, was following plot threads and anticipating new ones. Clearly had read them with a true attention to detail. So, I asked him if he had any thoughts about Jon Snow's mother. He said that Ned mentioned her once to Robert and wasn't her name Wylla?

It is so not obvious to most people.

[BearQueen87]

I always think of Greywater Watch as Howl's Moving Castle in my head.

Anyway, I was at a pool party over the weekend and discussing the books with someone who was on the third book. He'd watched the series and wanted to read the books. He had picked up tons of detail, knew names and places, was following plot threads and anticipating new ones. Clearly had read them with a true attention to detail. So, I asked him if he had any thoughts about Jon Snow's mother. He said that Ned mentioned her once to Robert and wasn't her name Wylla?

It is so not obvious to most people.

Yes, the show hasn't done a spectacular job of giving R+L. Rhaegar and Lyanna are rarely mentioned in show, anymore. And there are some things that don't come across visually like they did in text. Without them showing Harrnehal, the blue roses in the throne room mean nothing. I still hope we get the ToJ scene soon. They need to deal with it, if they don't want the audience scratching their heads about how Jon is suddenly a secret Targ and son of Ned's sister.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yes, the show hasn't done a spectacular job of giving R+L. Rhaegar and Lyanna are rarely mentioned in show, anymore. And there are some things that don't come across visually like they did in text. Without them showing Harrnehal, the blue roses in the throne room mean nothing. I still hope we get the ToJ scene soon. They need to deal with it, if they don't want the audience scratching their heads about how Jon is suddenly a secret Targ and son of Ned's sister.

I agree about the show, but I think the bigger point is that even for most book readers, R+L=J is not obvious and thus really cannot be a red herring. So either the clues are one big unintended coincidence or R+L really = J.

[sj4iy]

Yes, the show hasn't done a spectacular job of giving R+L. Rhaegar and Lyanna are rarely mentioned in show, anymore. And there are some things that don't come across visually like they did in text. Without them showing Harrnehal, the blue roses in the throne room mean nothing. I still hope we get the ToJ scene soon. They need to deal with it, if they don't want the audience scratching their heads about how Jon is suddenly a secret Targ and son of Ned's sister.

Well, I think that's the point, though. TV is different from books in that you don't introduce something until it becomes important. We had the books give us all of the clues in AGoT and a few in ACoK...then almost nothing for the next 3 books. That wouldn't work in the show. We've had a few hints and a bit of foreshadowing scattered about, but nothing big or bell-ringing as the ToJ. And I think that will work better in the show, because there will be more of a surprise instead of "I figured that out in season 1".

[Arlan of Pennytree]

How does this version of events square with Mel's vision: "Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again"?

Simply as her seeing Jon as a warg. He is in the wolf, the wolf is in him. And she does not see a wolf when she seeks for visions of Azof Ahai in her flames, but rather a man.