The Growing Gap Between ASOIAF and GOT (Book Spoilers)

[HodoringHodor]

I think some changes have been for the better:

• No Coldhands - because that would have dragged up issues with who he really was, you don't add in a charcter that interesting to just drop him once his mission is done (taking Bran & co north). Non-readers wouldn't have had a clue what he was all about.

Dropping Arianne - I can see Jamie and Bron doing this part of the story or something similar that goes wrong, so having to add another character is not required. But she could still be in we just don't know yet.

But some changes make no sense at all:

• House of Undying - why not just go with what was in the book? What was the purpose of kidnapping (dragonnapping?) the dragons, everyone knows how powerful and desirable they are already.

Brienne vs Sandor - made no sense as they should never meet. It damages the whole purposefulness that Brienne has in the story. She is on a mission and has no idea if the girls she seeks are even alive anymore, to show her meet one and then fight over her is just daft.

Dropping Stoneheart - again a change that could potentially have a serious change to the dynamic of numerous other character stories. She obviously serves a purpose in the books or there's no point in having her there in the first place. Replacing her with any other charcter looses the power behind her character and her actions (this is personal for her after all).

Agreed about these apart from possibly Stoneheart and Brienne vs. Sandor. I think it's too early to call either of those a mistake, depending on where season 5 takes things. If they drop a lot of Brienne's arc which is mainly just searching (and in that sense compares to Tyrion's depression and pining after Tysha in the books which also seems to be dropped) then it might not matter that Brienne finds out that Arya is alive. Finding out that either Arya or Sansa is alive could be what's coming in the next book as well. If the show just takes the route that Brienne tries to find Arya but can't and believes she's dead then that would be a really, really bad change.

Stoneheart's omission could simply be due to Jon's possible resurrection. If Jon is resurrected and the show has both resurrected Cat and Jon in such a quick succession it'd cheapen death in the show. If the only reason to cut her was to streamline the show while giving her possible plot related things for other characters then it'd be really bad to leave her out of the show.

[Storyrook]

I'm not concerned about how much it will continue to depart from the books. I have my criticisms of the show just as a show (I think the pacing is frequently off) but overall I think it's well done and entertaining, and I try to judge it on that basis, same as I would any other TV show. I'm not always successful and the book fan in my head does complain sometimes (I will be so sad if/when there is no pie... :bawl: ), but overall I think it's always important if you're going to watch any adaptation to view it as a separate thing with a common universe, rather than hope they'll just film the books. Especially in this case--even with a very big production budget and roughly 70 hours of TV, it's impossible to all-inclusively adapt a series this size. If they intend to wrap it up in seven seasons, they can't afford for the scope to get much bigger at this point.

I don't think they'll change big end-game reveals much, though, and that means that even if the show starts to stink, I'll still watch it to get potential book spoilers, because I'm one of those freaks who loves spoilers. :cool4:

[Annara Snow]

I think it's pretty clear that Season 4 of Game of Thrones departed more from A Song of Ice and Fire than any of the previous seasons had, and at times I was somewhat unnerved by the deviations. It feels to me like the gap between show and book is set to only continue to grow, especially with the possibility of the show having no Arianne or Quentin. I have a hard time envisioning the omission of Arianne and how that is going to affect the Aegon plotline, and then it really starts to feel like a completely different story to me.

I am a bit nervous that I will cease liking to show after Season 5. Anyone else experiencing similar concerns?

(Also worth mentioning...it was the show that allowed me to discover the books.)

Is it?

No, it's not clear, IMO.

Season 2 had, among other things: Dany being courted and betrayed by a heterosexual, lowborn and "self-made man" Xaro Xhoan Daxos, and having her dragons stolen and shouting "WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS?"; Doreah sleeping with Xaro, betraying Dany and killing Irri; Dany locking Xaro and Doreah in a vault; Jon getting captured by the wildlings because he was too distracted by Ygritte, instead of going "over" at Quorin's instigation during their last stand; Robb meeting a sassy nurse from Volantis and marrying her because he was angry at his mother and had a very modern distaste for arranged marriages; Jamie Lannister murdering his cousin; Theon never meeting Ramsay Snow/Reek and getting knocked over the head by Dagmar, who had previously murdered the two boys that were murdered by Ramsay in the book, and never seeing the sack of Winterfell by Ramsay and his men; Osha sleeping with Theon; Catelyn and Robb never learning that Bran and Rickon were 'dead'; Arya becoming Tywin's cupbearer and having 'cool' conversations with him, instead of working in the kitchen and being beaten and mistreated by an asshole she then went on to have killed; Roose Bolton staying by Robb's side and never overtaking Harrenhal; Arya never helping the Northmen overtake Harrenhal; Arya not murdering a guard while escaping Harrenhal; Brienne killing Renly's Kingsguard without a second thought (as opposed to Loras killing them in a fit of rage and grielf); Littlefinger visiting Tywin and seeing Arya; Littlefinger meeting with Catelyn, hitting on her unsuccessfully, and giving her the idea to release Jaime in exchange for her daughters, which was Cat's own idea in the book; Bran and Rickon not separating after leaving Winterfell; Bran not meeting Jojen and Meera Reed while still in Winterfell; Joffrey ordering the murders of Robert's bastards instead of Cersei; Cersei being powerless and whining non stop about not being able to control Joffrey; Joffrey making one prostitute beat another to death; Dontos never contacting Sansa and offering her escape; Sansa exchanging some four lines with Sandor, but having Shae as her best friend; Shae being loving and devoted to Tyrion and Sansa, and offering Tyrion to run away with her to Essos; Tyrion getting just a 'sexy' scar in battle instead of losing almost all of his nose; Varys offering Shae diamonds to leave Tyrion and Shae refusing...

Season 3 had, among other things: Sansa being planned to marry Loras, instead of his crippled elder brother she has never met; Littlefinger being stupid enough to approach Sansa himself in the broad daylight where everyone could see him and offer her escape, and the Lannisters being too stupid to do anything about it; Tywin and Olenna agreeing on a betrothal between Cersei and Loras; Joffrey killing a prostitute with a crossbow; a Boltons' man hacking Jaime's hand instead of the leader of a mercenary company employed by Tywin; Melisandre meeting Thoros, the BwW and Arya; the BwB selling Gendry to her; Melisandre taking Gendry to Dragonstone, having sex with him and leeching him; Gendry being left to row a boat from Dragonstone after Davos released him; a love triangle between still-alive Orell, Ygritte and Jon; Catelyn being locked up and having no role whatsoever until the Red Wedding; Talisa being more of an advisor to Robb than Catelyn was; Blackfish acting like a thug and threatening Edmure in case he didn't want to accept an arranged marriage to an unknown woman (which happens to be exactly was Blackfish always refused to do); Tywin and Olenna agreeing on a betrothal between Cersei and Loras; Loras apparently not thinking about Renly at all, but being obsessed with fashion and weddings; Joffrey killing a prostitute with a crossbow; Tyrion letting Sansa in advance that she was going to be married to him; Sansa talking to Margaery about it, being brainwashed into trying to "make it work" in her own forced marriage; Cersei not coming with two KGs to drag Sansa to her wedding while Sansa is trying to escape; Sansa kneeling and not showing any defiance at her wedding; Tyrion not making Sansa undress, not getting naked in front of her and not groping her breast; Tyrion and Sansa having amicable conversations and joking around; Shae being incredibly jealous of Sansa and angry at Tyrion for marrying her; Robb's wife getting pregnant; Robb's wife going to the Twins and getting stabbed in the belly; Jamie and Brienne arriving at King's Landing shortly after the Red Wedding; virgin Podrick apparently being some kind of a sex god and making prostitutes (who work for LF, no less) refused to be paid (?!); Mance Rayder having some 3 minutes of screentime the whole season...

How were the changes in season 4 any larger than the changes made in seasons 2 and 3?

[Ruin]

Fan of the show, but honestly I'm ready to just read TWOW and ADOS. The speculating about cast members, changed plots/deviations is meh. Meh.

[Julia Martell]

We clearly read completely different books and watched an entirely different show. I think David and Dan are incredibly bad writers. They're at their strongest when they actually adapt the material from the books. When they go off book, they're all over the place, and it's usually embarrassingly bad. Their invented material is poorly thought through, cliched, and derivative at best.

I agree with everything you said. I don't think the writing in BAD exactly, but the show is at its best when it's basically a shot-for-shot of the books. Except for the sex scenes. I'm more than willing to admit that D&D are better at sex scenes than The George.

I think it's rather telling that the first season in generally considered to be the best, and it's the most faithful.

Anyway, as to the OP, I try not too nitpick much about changes, as the Harry Potter movies almost turned me into a bitter, bile-spewing asshole in that regard.

OMG, me too. We should start a club.

I can't quite put my finger on what it was about season 4 that turned me from a book snob who enjoyed the show well enough and was willing to admit it was good to someone who gets a little angry on the inside every time the show is mentioned. I think it can be personified by the image of a thing that looks like a fairy from a little girls lunch box throwing fire balls, and Ramsey hunting with his girlfriend.

And this conversation I had with my sister, who's a huge fan of the show:

Me: blah, blah, can't remember the context - Lyanna Stark

Sister: Who?

M: Um, Ned's sister, the one who ran off the Rhaegar Targaryan...

S: Oh yeah, Dannaerys's brother who looked like a girl.

M: No! I mean, yes, but... No! They ran off and started the Rebellion. He was married to Oberyn Martell's sister.

S: Who?

M: The Dornish guy, with the hot girlfriend.

S: Oh, you mean the Red Viper. He's my favourite character.

[sj4iy]

I think it's rather telling that the first season in generally considered to be the best, and it's the most faithful.

...and you base this assertion on what, exactly? I've seen absolutely no consensus on which season is the 'best' or the 'worst'.

On IGN, we have Season 1 as the worst, Season 2 as the best:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/07/10/game-of-thrones-ranking-the-seasons

Here, on Rotten Tomatoes, Season 1 is the worst, Season 3 is the best:

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/game-of-thrones/s01/

Look around at this site, and you'll see people's opinions vary tremendously.

There is no 'generally considered'...people like different things. Especially in a story like this where there are so many different characters and plot threads to follow, it only makes sense that some people would enjoy certain storylines more than others. If people love Tyrion, they may love season 2 the best because he was at his best then. If people love Daenerys, then season 1 is probably their favorite. If people love the show to be extremely close to the book, then season 1 is for them. If people don't particularly care, then they might have enjoyed something else.

[Julia Martell]

...and you base this assertion on what, exactly? I've seen absolutely no consensus on which season is the 'best' or the 'worst'.

Fair enough. I certainly consider it the best, but I wouldn't take the opinion seriously if I were you either. The non-book readers I know tend to think so to, but that could also be confirmation bias on my part.

Anyway, that's my opinion. Which season so you consider the best?

[sj4iy]

Fair enough. I certainly consider it the best, but I wouldn't take the opinion seriously if I were you either. The non-book readers I know tend to think so to, but that could also be confirmation bias on my part.

Anyway, that's my opinion. Which season so you consider the best?

I enjoyed this past season the best. It had a few problems (Tyrion spending most of his time in a cell, Yara's ill-thought out dreadfort attack, etc), but overall, I was more excited week to week than I have been about any other season. There was so much going on, so many big moments, that it never really much downtime. I loved the additions with the Hound and Arya, as well as Craster's Keep and Karl "The Fookin' Legend" Tanner (which I thought was a lot of fun). They started off with a bang in episode 2 and barely let up the entire way through. They even made me like Alliser Thorne and gave us a genuinely heartfelt moment between Roose and Ramsay, which are words I never thought I'd ever say.

Season 1 was the next best for me, followed by 3 and then 2.

[Caerl Targaryen]

People keep saying season 4 was like the books it was supposedly based on. My question is, which books was it based on? Because what we got sure as hell wasn't ASOS, AFFC, or ADWD in tone, spirit, character development, or even plot. It was fan fiction. Hell, that's an exaggeration. I've read better fan fiction. And that's saying something because a lot of fan fiction is really poorly written.

[JagLover]

Season 4 was my favourite as well and then Season 3.

Bottom by some margin is season 2, which is also one of the least faithful seasons to the books for those claiming there is increasing divergence between the two.

[The One And Only]

Personally I liked Season 2 the least. Typical sophomore show problems. Still a great season compared to what is on television. The Battle of the Blackwater is awesome though.

Season 1 is hit or miss. The season took about 6 episodes to get going. Nobodies fault really as there are soooooo many characters. There are some cheesy scenes like Arya and Jeffrey near the rivAryan then there is some amazing acting with Tywin, Eddard, and others.

The last two seasons have been the best for me. Not much of a difference really.

[Hangover of the Morning]

I felt that season 3 was the most uneven. There were some fantastic episodes (and story lines) but quite a few meh ones too (George's one especially). Season 4 was much better in that sense: lots of great episodes and some good ones but nothing below average.

[Sword of the Morgan]

I'm pro changes when they make sense because at least they surprised me.

Like you, the show introduced me to the books wich I am re reading now.

I didn't really bother with changes they were making in the show so far, they were understandable (budget, not enough time or cast) and even fun.

I think I was getting disappointed by the fact they didn't even put some cheap Coldhands at least but I think this last episode of season 4 ''The Children'' was a huge let down.

The changes on stories are getting nonesense and honestly I'm not really sure if I'll keep watching because I like it or because I'm curious on the bad writting.

I just don't know why they didn't expand stories to make time for GRRM to finish the book and have more stories.

I'm losing interest in the turn the tv show is going for, so saddly, this next year I won't be expecting with the same joy next season.

I totally agree with this.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

I think the point Julia was trying to make is she feels like book readers prefer season one the best. I feel like this is true for people that read the books before the show. And season preference, in my mind, has a lot to do with when you read the books in relation to when you watched the show.

For me, I saw the first two seasons in like a four day period, then bought the books and read two and a half before season three started. I'd rank the season three as the best, then one, two and a far distant fourth for the fourth season. Season four had three really good episodes (2,8 and 9) and the rest was complete shit filler. Season one had the best writing and acting, but understandably, a lot of time was devoted to telling back story. I always have to tell people that haven't watched the show or only saw the first episode or two and gave up that they must watch the first four episodes, and it's best to do it in one run. That almost always hooks them. Season two was very well rounded, but it's missing a lot of what made ACoK fun (mainly the Qarth garbage and the less impressive Battle of Blackwater Bay). Season three has it's weak spots, but overall I liked it a lot and the changes didn't bug me much. The RW was done excellently, and shocked the world, maybe like no episode in a show has done before it. And again, season four sucked a whole lot of pillar and stones.

[Cas Stark]

I felt that season 3 was the most uneven. There were some fantastic episodes (and story lines) but quite a few meh ones too (George's one especially). Season 4 was much better in that sense: lots of great episodes and some good ones but nothing below average.

I agree, I can't for the life of me understand anyone ranking Season 3 as their favorite, it was all over the place, terrible pacing.

But, I also think Season 1 was by far the best. I didn't object to Season 2 as much as most, and I thought Season 4 was goodish, it had some great moments, but I thought the liberties they took with the source material were overall not executed well and the shortness of the episodes has become really problematic considering how dense the story is.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

I think it's pretty clear that Season 4 of Game of Thrones departed more from A Song of Ice and Fire than any of the previous seasons had, and at times I was somewhat unnerved by the deviations. It feels to me like the gap between show and book is set to only continue to grow, especially with the possibility of the show having no Arianne or Quentin. I have a hard time envisioning the omission of Arianne and how that is going to affect the Aegon plotline, and then it really starts to feel like a completely different story to me.

I am a bit nervous that I will cease liking to show after Season 5. Anyone else experiencing similar concerns?

(Also worth mentioning...it was the show that allowed me to discover the books.)

I'm already there. The season finale ruined it for me.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

Season 4 was just one giant WTF moment after another for me. I no longer understand what the showrunners are thinking anymore. What we ended up with was so far off the mark from the material they were supposedly adapting that I felt like I was watching the Harry Potter movies all over again. I don't think I've ever been so disappointed while watching a season of a show before. I want to continue to support the show because I think it used to be really good. But they're making it increasingly difficult for me to give a frak because the writing just isn't there anymore. Their decisions seem to be more about "what cool and pointless gimmicky thing can we put here?" or "which character do we most want to see fight another character in a poorly choreographed duel?" instead of "how can we best adapt George's story without blowing up our budget?" I feel like D&D are just phoning it in now and they're relying way too much on their invented material instead of just letting the books act as the template. It's like they just don't care about adapting George's story anymore. They got to the Red Wedding and now they're just rushing to the finish line. That's disappointing and frustrating.

I tend to agree. It seems they have become really arrogant. They probably don't realize that what made the show so great was that it was based on great material.

[sj4iy]

I think the point Julia was trying to make is she feels like book readers prefer season one the best. I feel like this is true for people that read the books before the show. And season preference, in my mind, has a lot to do with when you read the books in relation to when you watched the show.

For me, I saw the first two seasons in like a four day period, then bought the books and read two and a half before season three started. I'd rank the season three as the best, then one, two and a far distant fourth for the fourth season. Season four had three really good episodes (2,8 and 9) and the rest was complete shit filler. Season one had the best writing and acting, but understandably, a lot of time was devoted to telling back story. I always have to tell people that haven't watched the show or only saw the first episode or two and gave up that they must watch the first four episodes, and it's best to do it in one run. That almost always hooks them. Season two was very well rounded, but it's missing a lot of what made ACoK fun (mainly the Qarth garbage and the less impressive Battle of Blackwater Bay). Season three has it's weak spots, but overall I liked it a lot and the changes didn't bug me much. The RW was done excellently, and shocked the world, maybe like no episode in a show has done before it. And again, season four sucked a whole lot of pillar and stones.

I'm a book reader. I preferred Season 4.

My husband is a longtime book reader (I believe he started reading them about the time that ASoS came out). I just asked him which season was his favorite, and he said "This last one was my favorite".

So no, book readers don't all have the same opinion on the subject. I also don't believe 'time frame' means anything, either. It's all down to an individual's preferences more than if and when they read the books.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

I'm a book reader. I preferred Season 4.

My husband is a longtime book reader (I believe he started reading them about the time that ASoS came out). I just asked him which season was his favorite, and he said "This last one was my favorite".

So no, book readers don't all have the same opinion on the subject.

Well I think we can all agree that purist book readers prefer season one.

[sj4iy]

Well I think we can all agree that purist book readers prefer season one.

I can't agree to anything that involves sweeping generalizations.