The Problems With Season 4 (Show & Book Spoilers)

[zaphodbrx]

^Exactly. What zaphrodbrx posted is like saying "Baelor" was about naked Shae, Arya killing pigeons and Walder Frey fondling his wife. Of course the episode contained these moments but it, like 408, also contained a helluva lot more.

All of which were in the books. And therefore not filler.

Darth Sansa is filler. Since it can not be construed as a adaptation of the books plotline in any reasonable sense. And I forgot another filler in 'Mountain and the Viper' - Grey worm and Missandei !

When people complain about the obviously bad filler ( beetles, Mole's Town, Craster, Yara at Dreadfort, nothing is nothing, etc. ), they really are only touching the tip of the iceberg. In addition to the bad-horrible fillers, Season 4 ALSO abounds with moderately good-to-poor fillers. Such as Cersei and Oberyn, Tywin and Tommen, Brienne and Margery, Brienne and Hot pie, Tywin and Olenna, Mace Tyrell fetching pen and paper, Tywin and Oberyn, Necklace conversations, Melisandre and Selyse ( actually everything Stannis ), Gilly, and so on, and on, and on. It is not that they are very bad scenes, but they replace 1000+ pages worth of book material which is on the whole MUCH better. And why? Because D & D want to write their little fan fictions.

It cannot even be remotely compared to season 1. Season 4 was around 75% fillers by my estimate ( up from 50% in season 3, 35% in season 2, 10% in season 1 ). By this trend alone Season 5 is going to be about 90% filler, and if you've followed the casting news this estimate seems to be bang on target.

[Chebyshov]

The show runners had the issue that they knew how to end the season, but the starting points of many characters were very different. Arya for example - as in the books - was bascially just there, so they invited some stuff for her, which was not bad at all, but it had no real point and was not necessarily interesting. For Jon they needed to let him do some stuff until the great episode 9 climax - so they let him fight the mutineers at Craster's, which was a neat action moment, but did nothing for his arc.

Yeah, I mean when you split a book in two, characters with more chapters (Tyrion) benefit from it, while other characters (Yara) would very much suffer, so that created a large problem for them from the get-go. I think for the most part they handled it well (I liked Arya's material, and I personally had no issue with the Dreadfort stuff, though I know I'm in the minority), but I think one of their major stumbling blocks was being hell-bent on having the episode 9 battle spectacular. Cramming the attacks all in together didn't really let the emotional moments breathe, it made the narrative of the episodes disjointed (Stannis showing up in E10 just felt anti-climatic at that point, and I'm not even a Stannis fan!), and it required them to invent material for both Jon and Sam, neither of which was particularly fulfilling.

Looking at Bran's arc, Craster's made sense; I didn't want a full season of him eating acorns. But for Jon, if they wanted to establish him looking leadery, they could have had the assault on the Wall come earlier and throughout the season. I wouldn't say Craster's did "nothing" for Jon's arc...he did get a taste of leadership, and it did help set the political mood of the CB (plus Ghost was randomly there). However, E09 didn't land for me the way they wanted it to, so given that, it made me wish we had seen the battle more like in the books, which would also have given more time for scenes Mance and Stannis later in the season.

[Daske]

All of which were in the books. And therefore not filler.

Darth Sansa is filler. Since it can not be construed as a adaptation of the books plotline in any reasonable sense. And I forgot another filler in 'Mountain and the Viper' - Grey worm and Missandei !

When people complain about the obviously bad filler ( beetles, Mole's Town, Craster, Yara at Dreadfort, nothing is nothing, etc. ), they really are only touching the tip of the iceberg. In addition to the bad-horrible fillers, Season 4 ALSO abounds with moderately good-to-poor fillers. Such as Cersei and Oberyn, Tywin and Tommen, Brienne and Margery, Brienne and Hot pie, Tywin and Olenna, Mace Tyrell fetching pen and paper, Tywin and Oberyn, Necklace conversations, Melisandre and Selyse ( actually everything Stannis ), Gilly, and so on, and on, and on. It is not that they are very bad scenes, but they replace 1000+ pages worth of book material which is on the whole MUCH better. And why? Because D & D want to write their little fan fictions.

It cannot even be remotely compared to season 1. Season 4 was around 75% fillers by my estimate ( up from 50% in season 3, 35% in season 2, 10% in season 1 ). By this trend alone Season 5 is going to be about 90% filler, and if you've followed the casting news this estimate seems to be bang on target.

These 'filler' and 'fan ficton' fetishes are getting ridiculous. I know these were the trendy words last season, but c'mon.

When discussing shows, 'filler' used to be used in regard to stuff that happened outside of the overall season story arcs (e.g. many show's monster of the week), or episodes that helped use up the episode quota until they had an arc progressing episode. It seems to be specific to this site that it is being used to mean not in the books.

Many of the added scenes in the show do progress the story or add important character-building moments or are fun. And conversly ther are a lot in the books that don't.

The assumption that scenes in the books would be better that many other on screen is not a given. Some might have worked very well. Others probably not. There are many excrutiatingly tedious and boring scenes in the books. So let's say you discount those - it's still just a matter of preference what you think is MUCH better. Reading the episode review threads I get the impression many fans did enjoy watching many of the scenes you mention.

That's not to say some more book scenes would not have been better - but it's hardly clear cut especially the further we get through the books and the source material becomes much less focused and less punchy. There's an awful lot of repetition and waffle in there also.

[sj4iy]

Yeah, I mean when you split a book in two, characters with more chapters (Tyrion) benefit from it, while other characters (Yara) would very much suffer, so that created a large problem for them from the get-go. I think for the most part they handled it well (I liked Arya's material, and I personally had no issue with the Dreadfort stuff, though I know I'm in the minority), but I think one of their major stumbling blocks was being hell-bent on having the episode 9 battle spectacular. Cramming the attacks all in together didn't really let the emotional moments breathe, it made the narrative of the episodes disjointed (Stannis showing up in E10 just felt anti-climatic at that point, and I'm not even a Stannis fan!), and it required them to invent material for both Jon and Sam, neither of which was particularly fulfilling.

Looking at Bran's arc, Craster's made sense; I didn't want a full season of him eating acorns. But for Jon, if they wanted to establish him looking leadery, they could have had the assault on the Wall come earlier and throughout the season. I wouldn't say Craster's did "nothing" for Jon's arc...he did get a taste of leadership, and it did help set the political mood of the CB (plus Ghost was randomly there). However, E09 didn't land for me the way they wanted it to, so given that, it made me wish we had seen the battle more like in the books, which would also have given more time for scenes Mance and Stannis later in the season.

I have to say I felt the opposite. I loved episode 9. It was one of the most intense episodes, but still managed to hit all of the emotional keys without them feeling too rushed. Even Aemon and Sam just sitting and talking for a few quite moments was beautifully done...I teared up when he told Sam "I can see her, she's more real than you are". I loved that it wasn't dragged out over several episodes, and that we got it all at once to really hit us with everything. I also liked that we didn't get Stannis' moment until the next week, because I think that would have made it seem too much like Blackwater if they had. It also would have undermined the heartbreak and struggle the NW went through if they had been rescued at the end of the episode.

I'm not expecting others to agree with me, but there is nothing I would change about episode 9.

[sj4iy]

These 'filler' and 'fan ficton' fetishes are getting ridiculous. I know these were the trendy words last season, but c'mon.

When discussing shows, 'filler' used to be used in regard to stuff that happened outside of the overall season story arcs (e.g. many show's monster of the week), or episodes that helped use up the episode quota until they had an arc progressing episode. It seems to be specific to this site that it is being used to mean not in the books.

Many of the added scenes in the show do progress the story or add important character-building moments or are fun. And conversly ther are a lot in the books that don't.

The assumption that scenes in the books would be better that many other on screen is not a given. Some might have worked very well. Others probably not. There are many excrutiatingly tedious and boring scenes in the books. So let's say you discount those - it's still just a matter of preference what you think is MUCH better. Reading the episode review threads I get the impression many fans did enjoy watching many of the scenes you mention.

That's not to say some more book scenes would not have been better - but it's hardly clear cut especially the further we get through the books and the source material becomes much less focused and less punchy. There's an awful lot of repetition and waffle in there also.

Agreed. "Darth Sansa" isn't filler. It's an extremely important character moment that wraps up her season 4 arc. I don't see how anyone could call that filler just because we don't see it in the books.

[stannisismyking]

I have to say I felt the opposite. I loved episode 9. It was one of the most intense episodes, but still managed to hit all of the emotional keys without them feeling too rushed. Even Aemon and Sam just sitting and talking for a few quite moments was beautifully done...I teared up when he told Sam "I can see her, she's more real than you are". I loved that it wasn't dragged out over several episodes, and that we got it all at once to really hit us with everything. I also liked that we didn't get Stannis' moment until the next week, because I think that would have made it seem too much like Blackwater if they had. It also would have undermined the heartbreak and struggle the NW went through if they had been rescued at the end of the episode.

I'm not expecting others to agree with me, but there is nothing I would change about episode 9.

I didn't love the episode mainly because it was hyped up so much to be better than Blackwater and I didn't feel like it was anywhere near as good personally even with the bigger budget (maybe that's the "everything is Stannis and nothing hurts" part of me speaking). But the parts of the episode I DID love were the parts that seem to get panned the most, namely those quiet moments you mention.

[RedShirt47]

I never said that it couldn't be used...I said that it often gets used as the ONLY reason that something is considered "wrong". Like "Only Cat". There was absolutely nothing wrong with that change from the viewpoint of the show...people were simply upset because it was in the book like that and they wanted it in the show. There are things from the books that I wanted in the show, too...but I can see why they were cut or changed. I don't think the show did something 'wrong' for cutting something I liked or wanted in there...I think the show does something 'wrong' when there's something that doesn't work in context of the show.

Now, if you wanted to argue that it was a bad adaptation because it cut or changed those things, that would be different. But that doesn't necessarily make it a bad decision or a bad show. That's the difference.

Very well put!

There were plenty of comments on the lack of Meera and Jojen Reed in season 2 but like you said a discussion on such is hardly a backlash.

I totally agree that there is no problem with delaying LS until season 5. In fact I think it would have been mistake to include her in season 4 as there would have been nothing for her to do until the end of season 5 an non readers would be wondering where she was and why she wasn't doing more. Having her at the end of Season 4 for cheap shock value would have detracted from the already seen major events like The Mountain vs The Viper and Shae / Tywin.

The argument is flawed that something is a mistake because fans wanted to see something just due to it being in the books.

[RedShirt47]

see the first line of this article: http://www.wetpaint.com/game-of-thrones/articles/2014-06-26-is-lady-stoneheart-cut

"There was lots of backlash amongst fans of A Song of Ice and Fire after Lady Stoneheart did not make her much-rumored appearance in the Season 4 finale of Game of Thrones."

Reporters like to use hyperbole. The Daily Mail had an article after s4e01 stating "Fans shocked by Game of Thrones season premiere". They were discussing Oberyn's entrance at the whore house.

This is clearly hyperbole (if not an outright lie), not a single person who would describe themselves as a fan of Game of Thrones were remotely surprised by the scene let alone "Shocked". The scene was nothing compared to the Littlefinger trainging scene or Red Wedding or any number of other scenes in the previous three seasons.

[Colonel Green]

All of which were in the books. And therefore not filler.

Darth Sansa is filler. Since it can not be construed as a adaptation of the books plotline in any reasonable sense.

That's not what "filler" is. Also, the specific instance you cite appears to be, if anything, an acceleration of characterization.

Craster's Keep is filler. It was created solely because they wanted to have the battle in episode 9, necessitating the creation of other stuff in the meantime.

[RedShirt47]

These 'filler' and 'fan ficton' fetishes are getting ridiculous. I know these were the trendy words last season, but c'mon.

When discussing shows, 'filler' used to be used in regard to stuff that happened outside of the overall season story arcs (e.g. many show's monster of the week), or episodes that helped use up the episode quota until they had an arc progressing episode. It seems to be specific to this site that it is being used to mean not in the books.

Many of the added scenes in the show do progress the story or add important character-building moments or are fun. And conversly ther are a lot in the books that don't.

The assumption that scenes in the books would be better that many other on screen is not a given. Some might have worked very well. Others probably not. There are many excrutiatingly tedious and boring scenes in the books. So let's say you discount those - it's still just a matter of preference what you think is MUCH better. Reading the episode review threads I get the impression many fans did enjoy watching many of the scenes you mention.

That's not to say some more book scenes would not have been better - but it's hardly clear cut especially the further we get through the books and the source material becomes much less focused and less punchy. There's an awful lot of repetition and waffle in there also.

Good points.

Not in book =/= Filler.

The people complaining about Sansa having Filler aren't complaining about the lack of LF and Sansa to the Fingers or them not continuing the pretense of Sansa being Alayne. Sansa's story was well streamlined this season. To say she had Filler becausing it differs from the books is silly.

And most of Arya's story happened in the books also (just done slightly differently). The only non book scenes were the scene at The Gate and the fight between Sandor and Brienne. Both scenes were good I thought.

Craster's storyline did several things, added some action mid season, gave Bran and Jojen something to do other than trudge through snow, allowed Jon to show leadership and set up the tension at Castle Black. All of these could have been done in other ways but these couple of scenes didn't use a whole lot of screen time and achieved quite a lot.

[JustAnObsessedFan]

I find it a little odd that the people who are complaining that the Yara/Dreadfort scene and Craster's Keep are pointless plots are the same people who are complaining about the lack of Lady Stoneheart, which, in itself, is a pointless plot. She was introduced at the end of book 3, and in the two following books, hasn't achieved anything of importance. To me, her purpose was just to provide shock value, which I don't think is a good plot device. I could be proven wrong in future books, but until then, I feel it's a little premature to get upset about her absence. Also, IMO, Michelle Fairley is too good of an actress to be stuck in a non-speaking role playing a glorified zombie who goes around hanging people.

Lady Stoneheart is NOT a pointless plot. It's still Lady Stark - she's not a zombie, either. She's Catelyn. She's still a legitimate person. Lady Stoneheart does speak. Very quietly. The way it's described in the books is something I believe Michelle Fairley could perform outstandingly. LSH is complex. MF is brilliant. It's a match-made in heaven. Shock Value? In a fantasy series? No way. I mean it's not like resurrections are unheard of in ASOIAF. Dragons, Shadow Killers, Fire Gods, 'Warging', Visions, Ice Zombies...

George bought her back for a reason. There's still a story to tell - Cat's story will amount to something.

[jaimereborn]

Good points.

Not in book =/= Filler.

The people complaining about Sansa having Filler aren't complaining about the lack of LF and Sansa to the Fingers or them not continuing the pretense of Sansa being Alayne. Sansa's story was well streamlined this season. To say she had Filler becausing it differs from the books is silly.

And most of Arya's story happened in the books also (just done slightly differently). The only non book scenes were the scene at The Gate and the fight between Sandor and Brienne. Both scenes were good I thought.

Craster's storyline did several things, added some action mid season, gave Bran and Jojen something to do other than trudge through snow, allowed Jon to show leadership and set up the tension at Castle Black. All of these could have been done in other ways but these couple of scenes didn't use a whole lot of screen time and achieved quite a lot.

i felt that Craster's only delayed the tension at Castle Black and that Jon showing 'leadership' here just detracted from his big moment in E9, which was the moment where I feel he truly comes into his own. i think it impacted badly upon this huge battle in the series having the Craster sequence, which was actually full of plot holes and amounted to very little except Hollywood style action. It made the world-building less concrete for me. I'd also much rather have had some real character development from Bran and Jojen than these scenes. We could have had some exposition about the crannongmen, about Howland Reed, about greenseers, history of Winterfell, knight of the laughing tree and more... but we've barely found out anything about Jojen and Bran since Season 3 (and even that gave us very thin character development or depth).

[Game of Thrones Reference]

Lady Stoneheart is NOT a pointless plot. It's still Lady Stark - she's not a zombie, either. She's Catelyn. She's still a legitimate person. Lady Stoneheart does speak. Very quietly. The way it's described in the books is something I believe Michelle Fairley could perform outstandingly. LSH is complex. MF is brilliant. It's a match-made in heaven. Shock Value? In a fantasy series? No way. I mean it's not like resurrections are unheard of in ASOIAF. Dragons, Shadow Killers, Fire Gods, 'Warging', Visions, Ice Zombies...

George bought her back for a reason. There's still a story to tell - Cat's story will amount to something.

Lady Stoneheart is not a complex character. She hangs Freys because she's pissed they murdered her son. She's very one dimensional. The only reason I say she's a pointless plot is because she hasn't done anything significant that would have serious implications in the story. Therefore, so far, her only purpose was shock value. However, as I said in my post, that could all change in the next book.

[RedShirt47]

.... Shock Value? In a fantasy series? No way. I mean it's not like resurrections are unheard of in ASOIAF. Dragons, Shadow Killers, Fire Gods, 'Warging', Visions, Ice Zombies...

By Shock Value I meant more the timing than the storyline itself. The only reason to include it at the end of Season 4 would be to have a WTF moment to conclude the season rather than the upbeat Arya sailing to Bravos.

I'm not against including LS in the show. I think it works better done in season 5 with a little build up to the reveal.

Not having LS is season 4 works better in my opinion. I know a lot of people wanted to see her last season but I am glad she wasn't there (yet).

[Le Cygne]

It cannot even be remotely compared to season 1. Season 4 was around 75% fillers by my estimate ( up from 50% in season 3, 35% in season 2, 10% in season 1 ). By this trend alone Season 5 is going to be about 90% filler, and if you've followed the casting news this estimate seems to be bang on target.

I think season 5 will be a lot of filler. As for Darth Sansa, the two site hosts, who have read TWOW material, laughed at it for five minutes in one review after another.

[Konradsmith]

Invented material is not by definition filler.

And some of us disagree with the site hosts often and strongly.

[sati]

Lady Stoneheart is not a complex character. She hangs Freys because she's pissed they murdered her son. She's very one dimensional. The only reason I say she's a pointless plot is because she hasn't done anything significant that would have serious implications in the story. Therefore, so far, her only purpose was shock value. However, as I said in my post, that could all change in the next book.

Lady Stoneheart makes Catelyn the most tragic character in the entire story. She is not pointless.

[jaimereborn]

Lady Stoneheart makes Catelyn the most tragic character in the entire story. She is not pointless.

thank you! perfectly put.

[Konradsmith]

I'll believe she's out when we get actual evidence. On the subject of the site hosts, Ran seemed unsurprised that she wasn't in s4. One would hope that means he has some sort of foreknowledge via his discussions/consultations with Cogman during each season's writing process...

[Colonel Green]

I think season 5 will be a lot of filler. As for Darth Sansa, the two site hosts, who have read TWOW material, laughed at it for five minutes in one review after another.

They thought the look was silly, as I recall. I'm not sure what that has to do with whether it was filler.