R+L=J v.97

[lareine]

So a septon can do things without the High Septon's approval--indeed going directly against the High Septon--and might be punished if figured out but can still do it

how very interesting.

After the overthrow of a dynasty, is Meribald going to come forward and say, "oh btw: totally married Lyanna and Rhaegar." No. Both of them are dead. The Targaryen's have left Westeros. There is no reason to tell especially if it means your neck.

Yes, but even if it did happen centuries before, it still establishes the precedent of a septon being expelled from the faith for performing a royal marriage that didn't receive the approval of the High Septon. That does give us more of a sense of the High Septon's authority within the faith.

I found it very telling too that while Valaryians did honor their gods, it was not within their cultural norm to fear them. It gives us greater insight into how different not only the Targaryen, but the Valaryian culture and mindset in general were from those of Westeros. The concept of seeking approval from a religious official regarding marriage would probably have been a foreign concept to them.

Lord Varys-

Did I read your notes correctly? Did GRRM state in this new chapter that while none of the six High Septons who served during Aegon I's reign spoke out openly against Aegon's incestous and polygamous marriages, neither did they declare them lawful either?

Because to me, that definitely gives the impression that both practices were not in accordance with the Faith, but as long as the King was powerful enough to keep the HS placated and in line, they'd remain silent about it.

[MtnLion]

1 :ack: :dunno: :frown5: maybe Idk

2 Rhaegar was a prince he couldn't just marry any time he wanted, not w/o permission from the king and the high sept.

2. Apply that logic to Maegor and Aenys ... It doesn't work, Maegor married without the king's permission, or the High Septon's permission. Rhaegar was of legal age, he can do as he pleases. It is easier to ask for forgivenness than it is to ask for permission. ;)

[Bran17]

That's the point. It's not obvious. He worded every single line of that ToJ scene very carefully so people wouldn't go "oh. I get it." It's a mystery to be uncovered. If you haven't read MntLion's Analysis, please do:

I would write a proper response to you, but then I read state of dissipation's quote. It's good enough for me, too:

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

[BearQueen87]

I would write a proper response to you, but then I read state of dissipation's quote. It's good enough for me, too:

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

And when Rhaegar's dead? When the new Targaryen king is without KG...the first, primary, most important rule for the KG--one KG with the King at all times. The one they must obey all others. Why didn't they go to Viserys then? At least one of them? Hightower would have booked to Dragonstone, without question. He was loyal, to the end, to Aerys. That means protecting his dynasty. That means going ot Viserys. UNLESS...Viserys isn't the king.

[MtnLion]

Thus a secret royal marriage is no royal marriage at all. A royal marriages with few/no witnesses won't help the offspring of that marriage to press any claims. :'I'm a Prince of the Blood!' 'Then how comes it that I never saw you at the royal castle?'

Not to speak about a second royal marriage of a Crown Prince who is own bad terms with his father, and not exactly capable to install this new wife of his as the future (second?) queen.

First, Rhaegar was not on any worse terms with his father than anyone else in the kingdom. If you want to insist otherwise, then you need to explain why his father trusted Rhaegar to save his kingdom from the rebellion for him.

Next, who cares whether anyone accepts the wedding as legal, beyond Jon and Daenerys? We already have a foreshadowing of Daenerys bending the knee to the dragon (Jon). ;)

[Bran17]

And when Rhaegar's dead? When the new Targaryen king is without KG...the first, primary, most important rule for the KG--one KG with the King at all times. The one they must obey all others. Why didn't they go to Viserys then? At least one of them? Hightower would have booked to Dragonstone, without question. He was loyal, to the end, to Aerys. That means protecting his dynasty. That means going ot Viserys. UNLESS...Viserys isn't the king.

Even if Jon was King, Viserys was a member of the Royal Family and should be protected.

But the THREE of them stayed there.

That's still really weird, it doesn't matter if Jon was King or not, specially considering how questionable his status was(and still is, more than ever).

[Bran17]

First, Rhaegar was not on any worse terms with his father than anyone else in the kingdom. If you want to insist otherwise, then you need to explain why his father trusted Rhaegar to save his kingdom from the rebellion for him.

Next, who cares whether anyone accepts the wedding as legal, beyond Jon and Daenerys? We already have a foreshadowing of Daenerys bending the knee to the dragon (Jon). ;)

Really? And what is that?

The blue flower thing?

[BearQueen87]

Really? And what is that?

The blue flower thing?

Dany's final POV in ADWD--the stone she stumbles upon, the grass bends as if to a king, and Dany falls to her knees, bending to the invisible king as well, Drogon is there too.

[BearQueen87]

Even if Jon was King, Viserys was a member of the Royal Family and should be protected.

But the THREE of them stayed there.

That's still really weird, it doesn't matter if Jon was King or not, specially considering how questionable his status was(and still is, more than ever).

Viserys was protected---but not by the KG. He, being a royal family member, was fine without a KG. He had Wlllem Darry. In other words, the KG (who know that the King must always have one KG with him at all times) did not feel that Viserys needed one of them. Why? Because Viserys isn't the king.

Also, Jon's status is not questionable. The KG do not judge. They follow their orders: guard the king. If R and L got married it doens't matter if the KG thought it was legal or not. They were married. Jon is born. Jon is king.

[JonSnow4President]

I would write a proper response to you, but then I read state of dissipation's quote. It's good enough for me, too:

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

So, they serve the king (which Rhaegar isn't). Not to mention, both the person who gave the order (Rhaegar), and the person from whom the authority flowed (Aerys) are dead. One would assume that at least one of the kingsguard would go check with the new king (Viserys, assumedly) what his kingly orders are. They're human beings, not robots. They can terminate an infinite loop order and go defend the new king, when every rule of logic says they should. But they don't. #Justsayin'

And I got ninja'd...

[BearQueen87]

And I got ninja'd...

:ninja:

you totally helped out though!

[Doorlocks]

I'm pretty certain about the accuracy of R + L = J, but I'm still trying to get my mind around the motivations and actual events. Because based on what makes the most sense to me, it's not a romance story or a political story. So forgive the length, I'm just kind of thinking out loud.

The thing that confuses me the most is the length of time involved. On my first reading of the series, my impression was that it was the events at Harrenhal that directly sparked the rebellion, that the "abduction" followed immediately, then the Rebellion and the Tower of Joy. And I had all of this occurring in about a year, when Lyanna was roughly 15-16 years old. Furthermore, if I ever did think of Aegon's birth, I thought it was before Harrenhal or just after. Instead, the timeline is much expanded and in an order that doesn't jibe with my initial understanding:

Tourney @ Harrenhal – 281
Aegon's Birth – 282
Robert's Rebellion - 282-283
Tower of Joy - 283

This changes my perception of events in several ways. First, it drives home to me that Lyanna was 13-14 at Harrenhal and Rhaegar was 22. That makes the possibility of their story being a romantic one much slimmer than before. If Rhaegar was obsessed with Lyanna, either romantically or sexually, and his interest began when she was barely a teenager... he ends up coming off like Littlefinger to me. Nothing that I know about Lyanna indicates that she would have been interested in Rhaegar either. Her opinion upon being betrothed to Robert, not too long before Harrenhal, was an unenthusiastic "Love is sweet, Ned." She was also specifically disdainful of men who couldn't keep to one bed. It makes little sense that she would then immediately then start showing interest in a married man. So if it wasn't the beginning of a romance, what was going on? Why did Rhaegar crown Lyanna?

We learned from Barristan in ADwD that Varys informed Aerys Rhaegar was using the Tourney as a ruse to bring together a potential alliance to dethrone Aerys.

“With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent’s tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together.” – The Kingbreaker, ADwD

This is probably true, given what Jaime recalls Rhaegar saying in AFfC:

“When the battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but ... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.” – Jaime I, AFfC

We also learn in Dance about Rickard's Southron ambitions. We know that Aerys' attendance at Harrenhal resulted in at least one of the theorized main conspirators in these ambitions suddenly deciding not to attend after all (Tywin). It seems plausible that Rickard (and Hoster?) likewise suddenly decided not to attend, which would explain why all his children are present but not him. Aerys' presence in general (and the likely command that his guards keep a close eye on Rhaegar's movements and interactions) would seemingly forestall any further progression of a coup.

But Jon Arryn was there, so the lines of communication were still at least partway open. If all Rhaegar really needed to convey was 'Yes, I'm with you' to the absent Rickard, an unusual and unexpected interaction with his daughter would work as a signal. There's a price involved, since it's seen as a slight to Elia, Robert, and potentially Rickard, but in the end that's all the risk it is... slight. It's not the sort of thing to start a war, especially among a people used to the capricious whims of the Mad King. Which we know, because it didn't start a war. It wasn't until a year or so later, after much more grievous insults, that the Rebellion began. However, even if Harrenhal was the beginning of a secret coup, it did not manifest as it was intended. Rhaegar speaks of his plans for change as a failure and a road not taken, and the fact that the Rebellion happened at all shows that the plans went drastically off the rails... but only after the missing year.

If Lyanna's abduction was not the result of a romance and it wasn't part of a political scheme (it in fact exploded a political scheme)... what happened? I think it was what seems to have always happened in Rhaegar's life: he started chasing after prophecy. We are told by Barristan that Rhaegar, who he characterizes as "Able, determined, deliberate, dutiful, and single-minded" made the radical decision of becoming a warrior based on a reading of prophecy

“As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father’s knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require a sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.” - Daenerys I, ASoS

And we know from Aemon that Rhaegar's interpretation of prophecy was something that occupied his mind and was changing until near the end of his life.

“It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought… the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet.” – Samwell IV, AFfC

Most importantly, we are shown in Dany's HotU visions a scene between Rhaegar and Elia after Aegon's birth.

“Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”

“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked. “He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door.

“There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

This scene shows several things:

1. If she took it as an insult at all, Rhaegar crowning Lyanna at Harrenhall doesn’t ultimately seem to have impacted Rhaegar's intimacy with Elia.
2. Rhaegar was fully invested at this point in his children with Elia and fully believed that Aegon was the Prince.
3. Rhaegar speaks freely with Elia about his prophetic obsession
4. Rhaegar saw a third child as a necessity to fulfilling the prophecy.

Late in ADwD we learn:

“After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon’s birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward.” – The Griffin Reborn, ADwD

If we assume that by the point of the scene in Dany’s vision they already know that Elia cannot bear another child, then the implication becomes that Rhaegar, certain in the belief that Aegon was the tPtwP and that the Dragon Needs Three Heads, began searching for a woman to birth his third child. We know he ultimately chose Lyanna, perhaps because he was aware of the symbolic potency of a child being a combination of Ice and Fire, but we know nothing of Lyanna's reaction. If there wasn't a romance between them at Harrenhal, however, then her abduction would lack any of the romance many people in Westeros attach to it. It then becomes at least possible that Lyanna's response was actually negative.

[stateofdissipation]

Viserys was protected---but not by the KG. He, being a royal family member, was fine without a KG. He had Wlllem Darry. In other words, the KG (who know that the King must always have one KG with him at all times) did not feel that Viserys needed one of them. Why? Because Viserys isn't the king.

Also, Jon's status is not questionable. The KG do not judge. They follow their orders: guard the king. If R and L got married it doens't matter if the KG thought it was legal or not. They were married. Jon is born. Jon is king.

Viserys was protected---but not by the KG. He, being a royal family member, was fine without a KG. He had Wlllem Darry.

In other words, the KG (who know that the King must always have one KG with him at all times) did not feel that Viserys needed one of them. Why? Because Viserys isn't the king.

always except when he does not...

He (Tywin) gave me a day to bring out Aerys. aDwD page 1017

aGoT chapter 12

When the Kingsguard meets in the Round Room, the Lord Commander formally asks, "Sers, who guards the king?" They reply with what other knights have been asked to see to his protection. "Will they keep him safe?" asks the Lord Commander after, and when they respond in the affirmative he replies, "Be seated, then" (III: 754)http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/2.1.3.2./

Also, Jon's status is not questionable.

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks. and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.---aGoT page 409

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. .---aGoT page 410

"I know every secret of the bloody bed, silver lady, nor have I ever lost a babe." Mirri Maz Duur replied.--aGoT page 650

All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.GRRM http://www.westeros....SSM/Entry/1040/

His birth?

The KG do not judge. They follow their orders: guard the king.

Lovely..

If R and L got married it doens't matter if the KG thought it was legal or not. They were married.

--Ned has just resigned as hand over Robert's order to kill children, stating--"I thought you a better man than this Robert, I thought we had made a better king."--Eddard aGoT page 343.

"but he(Ned) had assured her(Lyanna) that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true that would love her with all his heart." aGoT page 367

---Lyanna disagreed stating:"Love is sweet dearest Ned but it cannot change a man's nature" aGoT page 367

---Going to a brothel to see one of Robert's bastards clearly showed Ned that he had been mistaken.

"He wondered if Rhaegar Targaryen had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not." aGoT page 369

Ned was visiting Robert's bastard at a brothel. He had just confirmed that what Robert did (sex) before his betrothal did matter.

Ned thought Rhaeger would not frequent brothels.----Unknown source of this conclusion---

Hypothesis---the unknown source of the conclusion---Ned knew that Rhaegar did not have sex before his marriage.

The case for R marrying L is infinitely stronger than the case for the kingsguard guarding the king. The former has a base in text and canon the latter is pure speculation.

Jon is born. Jon is king.

If Jon is born before Ned arrives and before news reaches the ToJ then the KG are guarding Jon is king.

Sadly you have nothing as to time of birth or news to the ToJ... so GRRM's answer they were following orders will have to suffice.

[UnmaskedLurker]

A marriage of political importance - that is, a marriage among the nobility or royalty - which could cause problems (say, because it polygamous, and thus highly unusual, possibly illegal, prone to cause unrest, rebellion, and war) should be seen by as many witnesses as possible. If it is secret or only 'half-official' etc. that could be used to declare it null and void, or to pretend it never happened.

There is no fix number of witnesses for such a thing, but a prince who marries not at court should be get back to court as soon as possible and have a proper marriage there, or else no one will take the thing seriously.

I never said that Rhaegar and Lyanna were not married in their own minds (or in front of the gods, if the condone polygamy - which they most likely do not, if the High Septon is an authority on the matter), rather that the circumstance under which it occurred make it very unlikely that this marriage could stand if anyone - Aerys, the High Septon, the Starks, the Martells, the Realm - considered it wrong.

I do not understand your point. Are you talking about proving it then--if all parties had lived--or proving it now. If you talking about proving it then, assuming all parties lived, which is what Rhaegar would have been planning for--the proof it fairly easy. Rhaegar stayed away with Lyanna until the baby was born. Then he would go back to KL, maybe to try to take over as king and depose Aerys and maybe not. But no other plan makes any logical sense. Rhaegar would not have planned to stay at ToJ for the rest of his life (or the rest of Aerys life). Rhaegar was obsessed with prophesy and needs, at a minimum, the third head of the dragon--and I strongly suspect--TPTWP (Lyanna being ice to his fire). So if this plan had succeeded, are you suggesting someone would have called R&L liars--claiming they were never really married. I am sure Rhaegar had whatever proof he thought he needed and had Dayne and Whent as witnesses. Is someone going to call these KG liars (including the honorable Sword in the Morning). No, Rhaegar may have risked his father's wrath, but he was not in danger of anyone questioning whether he got married to L--at least no if all parties had lived.

Now if you are talking about Jon being able to prove himself the rightful heir--that is a mystery on which we have speculated greatly. There is no clear answer that can be developed from the available clues, but if GRRM needs this information to become publicly known--he has a way already figured out. If it only needs to be proven to Dany, GRRM has figured that out as well.

But your main complaint seems to be that it makes no sense for Rhaegar to take the actions he took if R&L were going to be married and have children. For that issue, what happens when everyone who was involved in the situation is dead is irrelevant--of course Rhaegar would not have planned for the situation that actually happened. But based on Rhaegar's assumption that all relevant parties would be alive--returning to KL with Lyanna and an infant was probably a fairly good plan--at least the best plan available under the circumstances given the need for a third head of the dragon.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Viserys was protected---but not by the KG. He, being a royal family member, was fine without a KG. He had Wlllem Darry. In other words, the KG (who know that the King must always have one KG with him at all times) did not feel that Viserys needed one of them. Why? Because Viserys isn't the king.

Also, Jon's status is not questionable. The KG do not judge. They follow their orders: guard the king. If R and L got married it doens't matter if the KG thought it was legal or not. They were married. Jon is born. Jon is king.

This--plus Jon was in big danger being basically alone in an abandoned tower. Under those circumstances, none of the KG would leave to go to Viserys when he is basically safe on Dragonstone--unless Viserys was king. If V is king--at least one KG MUST go to Dragonstone. If V is not king, it can only be because Jon is king.

[stateofdissipation]

And when Rhaegar's dead? When the new Targaryen king is without KG...the first, primary, most important rule for the KG--one KG with the King at all times. The one they must obey all others. Why didn't they go to Viserys then? At least one of them? Hightower would have booked to Dragonstone, without question. He was loyal, to the end, to Aerys. That means protecting his dynasty. That means going ot Viserys. UNLESS...Viserys isn't the king.

And when Rhaegar's dead? When the new Targaryen king is without KG...the first, primary, most important rule for the KG--one KG with the King at all times.

The first duty of the kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat. The white knights were sworn to obey the king's commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and to keep silent when it was not, serve at his pleasure and defend his name and honor. Strictly speaking; it was purely the king's choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of a greater or lesser degree,and occasionally their lovers, mistresses and bastards. But others preferred to use household knights for those purposes, whilst keeping their seven as their own personal guard never far from their sides.

If the queen had commanded me to protect Hizdahr, i would have no choice but to obey.--aDwD 857-858 paperback

The one they must obey all others.

Why didn't they go to Viserys then?

“The Kingsguard does not flee.” --Ser Gerold aGoT page 410

Ned is Visery's enemy absolutely. They died fighting him. Martell and Darry also died fighting Targaryen enemies. They did not go to Aerys, Aegon, or Viserys.

At least one of them?

Hightower would have booked to Dragonstone, without question. He was loyal, to the end,

"As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, ‘You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree."--Jamie Lannister-aCoK 721

Hightower did not judge Aerys for roasting Rickard and strangling Brandon... was there somebody to be roasted or strangled on Dragonstone...

to Aerys.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said... aGoT page 410

He was not doing his primary most important rule...

That means protecting his dynasty.

He remembered Jamie Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling in the grass in front of the king's pavilion making his vows to protect and defend king Aerys.--aGoT page 607

That means going to Viserys. UNLESS...Viserys isn't the king.

Or they die before getting there

[IceFire125]

This is not supported by texts directly, but play into the behaviors of the 3 KG. Like a few here, I'm siding little by little with the notion that Hightower had a very significant letter on his person when he was on his way searching for Prince Rhaegar's whereabouts, leading to the tower of joy. It is a letter from and sealed by King Aerys II, the letter that legitimized Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage, it solves several things, in my opinion. And King Aerys was in a dire, desperate state, he needed Rhaegar to return to lead the royal army against the rebels, who were winning the war.

It solved the mystery of Hightower's claim that they (all 3 KG) have a vow to keep and that Prince Viserys is not king, by virtue of clarifying that Ser Willem Darry is not of the Kingsguard.

And I know I'm reaching here, but how awesome would it be for this scene to happen...

In the last chapter of TWOW, Jon's POV, the last paragraph...

Standing before Jon, who was reborn as a man, after going through his death as a boy, being thrust into rule...is Howland Reed, who now holds in his hands 2 letters from 2 Kings, proclaiming Jon as heir!

1. Robb's letter legitimizing him as a Stark, heir to Winterfell, King in the North

2. Aerys' letter legitimizing his parents marriage, true heir to the Iron Throne, King of the Seven Kingdoms.

...then Jon reached out with his hand, grabs one of the letter...

no yet revealed to us what he chose, for that answer will be known to us in A Dream of Spring.

[stateofdissipation]

This--plus Jon was in big danger being basically alone in an abandoned tower. Under those circumstances, none of the KG would leave to go to Viserys when he is basically safe on Dragonstone--unless Viserys was king. If V is king--at least one KG MUST go to Dragonstone. If V is not king, it can only be because Jon is king.

This--plus Jon was in big danger being basically alone in an abandoned tower.

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks. and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.---aGoT page 409

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. .---aGoT page 410

"I know every secret of the bloody bed, silver lady, nor have I ever lost a babe." Mirri Maz Duur replied.--aGoT page 650

All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.GRRM http://www.westeros....SSM/Entry/1040/

Has anything more specific than that come out about Jon's birth?

Under those circumstances, none of the KG would leave to go to Viserys when he is basically safe on Dragonstone--unless Viserys was king.

Where and when do we have the news of Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon's deaths arriving at the ToJ?

If you would like to specify circumstances... by all means do so.

Without them what was done or not done and why cannot be explained regardless of the person the kingsguard thought was in line to the throne Aerys lost.

If V is king--at least one KG MUST go to Dragonstone.

He (Tywin) gave me a day to bring out Aerys. aDwD page 1017

aGoT chapter 12

When the Kingsguard meets in the Round Room, the Lord Commander formally asks, "Sers, who guards the king?" They reply with what other knights have been asked to see to his protection. "Will they keep him safe?" asks the Lord Commander after, and when they respond in the affirmative he replies, "Be seated, then" (III: 754)http://www.westeros....ction/2.1.3.2./

Three examples of the king being without kingsguard. Do we have one for the king must always have at least one kingsguard present.

The day had been windy when he said farwell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. "Your grace," Jamie had pleaded, "Let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine.

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than our cousin Robert. He wants you close so Tywin can't harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."

Jamie's anger had risen up in his throat. "I am not a crutch, I am a knight of the kingsguard."

"Then guard the king," SerJon Darry snapped at him. "When you donned that cloak you promised to obey."aFfC-chapter page 133

I am pretty sure that is as close as you can get-- the king must have his crutch...

If V is not king, it can only be because Jon is king.

Or Aegon is king... not specifically mentioned on page 409-410 aGoT

Or Robert is king...

Does the oath of a Kingsguard include to serve _whoever_ is the king, even if the new king rebelled against the old one, or did Jaime and Barristan _choose_ to continue their service as Robert was crowned?

The oaths did not envision rebellion, actually. Robert pardoned Barristan and Jaime, and they accepted the pardon and continued to serve.--GRRM

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Kingsguard/

Or Aerys was still king

The white knights were sworn to obey the king's commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and to keep silent when it was not, serve at his pleasure and defend his name and honor.--aDwD page 858

Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.--aGoT page 410

or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”--aGoT page 410

The Kingsguard does not flee.”--aGoT page 410

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold--aGoT page 410

He remembered Jamie Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling in the grass in front of the king's pavilion making his vows to protect and defend king Aerys.--aGoT page 607

Only give or take three

[lareine]

I also don't think the HS's words can be taken as an indication that the second marriage was invalid. It violated the Faith teaching, but apparently, as I read the post from Lord V. on p. 1 of this thread, after the exile, Maegor would have been free to come back and the marriage would have been accepted. So being "unlawful" under the rules of the Faith is not the same thing as not being recognized as a marriage.

Your edit also explains that Rhaegar really just had to worry about handling Aerys. I assume he had a plan for that. Maybe not a perfect plan--but a plan.

I guess the High Septon would have outlawed it during the short time the Iron Bank of Braavos considered him to be the rightful and only King of Westeros... I know that I wrote that GRRM said incest and polygamy were never outlawed - while Aegon I was alive, and before the war of the Faith broke out. What happened during that war wasn't covered by the reading. With Maegor's and Jaehaerys' laws revoked by King Tommen, both incest and polygamy may now very likely be officially outlawed in Westeros.

But we should really keep in mind what a marriage always was - and still is. The public announcement that two people have sexual intercourse. In that sense, the concept of a 'secret marriage' is politically, economically, and in pretty much any other sense but the stupid religious aspect of it ('God knows that we are married!') nonsense. Especially in a world where marriage is much more politically important than in present-day real life (in the western world, at least).

Thus a secret royal marriage is no royal marriage at all. A royal marriages with few/no witnesses won't help the offspring of that marriage to press any claims. :'I'm a Prince of the Blood!' 'Then how comes it that I never saw you at the royal castle?'

Not to speak about a second royal marriage of a Crown Prince who is own bad terms with his father, and not exactly capable to install this new wife of his as the future (second?) queen.

I think both of you make really good points with the sentences I bolded above.

UL-

I agree with you that about the king ultimately being the authority to decide if the marriage would stand. The Faith may protest or remain silent on the subject depending on how powerful, feared or regarded the king at the time is. We've seen enough examples now from tPatQ, tRP, and D&E, and now with this new chapter to see that when it comes to controversial and or secret royal marriages, it's ultimately up to the king whether or not he wants to forgive or punish the parties involved.

Lord Varys-

I completely agree with your description of royal marriages and their economic, political and social significance of royal marriages and the hazards that are inherent when they occur in secret or private. This would be particularly true with a secret marriage that was reviving a custom that was very likely controversial.

I know that Westeros and the real medieval world are not exactly the same in customs and laws. But GRRM has said that he's based a lot of his universe on the historical medieval world, and if there's one thing that both Westeros and medieval Europe share, it's the brutal, violent and often creative way that powerful men could bend the less powerful to their will and to the narrative that they dictate. The truth and reality of a situation really don't matter to them. They could literally make facts up and produce witnesses to support whatever story they wanted to tell at a particular moment. Tyrion's trial and Ned's execution are just two examples from Westeros.

And when it came to the legitimacy of marriages and children, I can give you countless examples of how powerful medieval lords, princes, kings, and popes could legitimate a marriage and children in one breath and then years later have those same marriages and children bastardized when they were no longer politically advantageous for them. We start to get a glimpse of this too in AFFC, as the rumors about the legitimacy of Cerise's children begin to be given more credence as Lannister power starts to wane. The more ruthless medieval elite could even make the undesired parties involved in a forbidden marriage (including the children of the union) disappear or expire in questionable circumstances.

So where would this leave the legitimacy of any secret, polygamous marriage Lyanna and Rhaegar had entered into and their offspring?

I have to agree with those who say that unless Rhaegar was going to overthrow his father and become king himself, it would all come down to Aerys. It's difficult to say at this point with any degree of certainty what his decision would be. There's too much about both of them that we don't know. On the surface and given what we do know about Aerys and his relationship with son so far (his paranoia, his violent tendencies, his belief that Rhaegar was conspiring against him), it doesn't look good for R&L. But GRRM has said that their relationship was 'complicated' and we'd eventually be learning more about it. Many different things could have happened, but I absolutely believe that the relationship between Aerys and Rhaegar is key.

I also agree though that even if allowed to stand by Aerys, the marriage would have caused a great deal of political turmoil and fallout for the crown. It would probably always be controversial and it's legitimacy subject to constant challenges, particularly after Rhaegar's death.

[UnmaskedLurker]

This is not supported by texts directly, but play into the behaviors of the 3 KG. Like a few here, I'm siding little by little with the notion that Hightower had a very significant letter on his person when he was on his way searching for Prince Rhaegar's whereabouts, leading to the tower of joy. It is a letter from and sealed by King Aerys II, the letter that legitimized Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage, it solves several things, in my opinion. And King Aerys was in a dire, desperate state, he needed Rhaegar to return to lead the royal army against the rebels, who were winning the war.

It solved the mystery of Hightower's claim that they (all 3 KG) have a vow to keep and that Prince Viserys is not king, by virtue of clarifying that Ser Willem Darry is not of the Kingsguard.

And I know I'm reaching here, but how awesome would it be for this scene to happen...

In the last chapter of TWOW, Jon's POV, the last paragraph...

Standing before Jon, who was reborn as a man, after going through his death as a boy, being thrust into rule...is Howland Reed, who now holds in his hands 2 letters from 2 Kings, proclaiming Jon as heir!

1. Robb's letter legitimizing him as a Stark, heir to Winterfell, King in the North

2. Aerys' letter legitimizing his parents marriage, true heir to the Iron Throne, King of the Seven Kingdoms.

...then Jon reached out with his hand, grabs one of the letter...

no yet revealed to us what he chose, for that answer will be known to us in A Dream of Spring.

While we don't have textual evidence that Aerys even knew R&L were married to make legitimizing the marriage an issue, I agree that this scene would be cool.