Justin Amey Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I have a 2 small questions that as been itching my booty hole for a minute. 1 Rhaegar didn't want risk killing Elia with a third child, (supposedly) kidnapped Lyanna, gets her knocked up, but she died giving birth to the first child? Please help a brother out with that one. Bad luck... 2 Lyanna didn't didn't want to marry Robert because she knew eventually he would cheat on her, This is a popular invention... There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. --GRRM http://entertainment.time.com/2011/04/18/grrm-interview-part-2-fantasy-and-history/ Lyanna never mentions not wanting to marry Robert just repeats rumors she heard about him... Not the actions of a girl in love.. but not a reflection of insanity. just like with Cercei, Well, Cersei was not an issue at the time just Robert getting some girl in the Vale with a baby. but she willingly went with Rhaegar knowing that doing to "do with him, that would be cheating on his wife? If you remove the fanfiction the question vanishes... Help ya out here! "...How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?"-- Cersei aGoT page 79 paperback "The maid was Loras tyrell`s sister Margaery, he'd confessed, but there were those that said she looked like Lyanna"--aGoT page 269 paperback "A year ago I schemed to make the girl (Margaery Tyrell) Robert's queen."--Renly aCoK page 478 paperback The source (in law or religion) of Cersei's concern and Renly's scheme is not given. It clearly is not the Targaryen polygamy from the time of dragons. Lyanna plays in to both the concern and the scheme. Hypothesis-- Rhaegar put Elia aside for Lyanna. That also lays those concerns to rest.... Polygamy was not practiced in centuries... and Rhaegar was not actively married to Elia after he kidnapped Lyanna. Elia was Aerys' hostage against Dorne. I just have a hard time believe he would go through all this foolishness even though he's just a prince. his father was not exactly a fan of him and Pissing off both the Martells and the Starks just for a third Child just seem beyond extraordinarily stupid for Rhaegar to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 :agree: There is nothing in the new information that makes a marriage between R&L less likely. In fact, the new information makes it clear why Rhaegar would have to go off in secret to marry Lyanna, and why he would likely wait until a baby is born to try to minimize the fallout from the controversial polygamous marriage. I'm also pondering whether Rhaegar had considered the Duncan the Small solution - if by removing himself from the court, he sent a message that for Lyanna, he was willing to give up his claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlan of Pennytree Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 There's no evidence to indicate a traveling septon would be a proponent of polygamy (that I'm aware of), I would love to be educated differently, It would possibly make a few things fit together more snugly concerning the implications of this topic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I'm also pondering whether Rhaegar had considered the Duncan the Small solution - if by removing himself from the court, he sent a message that for Lyanna, he was willing to give up his claim. I think Rhaegar went missing before Lyanna. Or at least, I don't believe all of his efforts to go and move to the ToJ were made for Lyanna. Why taking the woman you love there? It was his secret hiding for something else, and thenhe took Lyanna there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Amey Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I Also have a hard time believing Lyanna being devout to the old golds just Marry some one like that to someone is already married and is devout to the high sept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 So, taking look at the material both old and new, it all boils down to the same conclusion: Were there people who disapproved of polygamy? - Yes. Was polygamy ever truly outlawed? - No. Out of which we can conclude: Would Rhaegar's polygamous meet trouble? - Yes. Would it be a totally no go? - No. All those HS tantrums and who did what with whom are merely attractive embellishments to make the issue of polygamy more problematic and pull some wool over the readers' eyes. Exactly. And there is so much going on at this time (like Aerys) and a probable regime change that if the High Septon wanted to keep his head he'd go with the flow. 1 :ack: :dunno: :frown5: maybe Idk 2 Rhaegar was a prince he couldn't just marry any time he wanted, not w/o permission from the king and the high sept. Oh boy. Welcome to the mad house. And yes, he could. He could marry without permission. You do not need permission to marry. You need witness, a cloak, a septon or a tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I guess BearQueen87 tries to play the 'a guy like Septon Maribald is just so nice' card. Surely he would help two sweethearts to fulfill their heart's desire... Sure he would, but I guess he would rethink the whole thing if the sweethearts would give him their real names, i.e. Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone, and heir to the Iron Throne of Aegon the Conqueror, and Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. If they did not give their real names, the marriage would have been invalid, anyway, at least that's how it's done in the real world... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 The Faith did not really change his view on incest - polygamy is not even practiced anymore, and thus not discussed, but I'm pretty sure they don't find it a great idea in the present. Else everyone would be allowed to do it, don't you think. What kind of savior figure do you mean, by the way? An infant in swaddling clothes? If Rhaegar told everyone that he took a second wife to conceive the legitimate savior of the world - assuming that this was his motivation at all (I don't think so, I believe that he believed Aegon was the one until he died) - I guess the Lords and the Faith would have considered him to be even madder than his father... UL, you read what I wrote. So you know that Maegor married Alys in a Valyrian ceremony. How the hell could the High Septon annul such kind of thing? How the hell could anyone decide or make people believe that he did can decide legal matters? Because people believe that he/she has the authority to make such decisions. Maegor was a prince, the High Septon the Voice of the Seven on Earth. When Maegor decided not to heed the High Septon's ruling (that his marriage was null and void), the High Septon would look bad/powerless if he would not do anything in his power to separate Maegor and Alys permanently. That's what he's trying to do. To declare the marriage unlawful/null and void is the first step, but Maegor and Alys also need to be separated, or else Maegor might eventually try to pass off his (from the Faith's POV) bastards by Alys as his legitimate children. From the POV of the Faith any marriages not officiated by a septon may not be lawful/real marriages, or else a septon would not be needed to wed people to each other. The Faith can't invoke that view in the North, of course, but we see that the gods of Ghis would apparently not accept if Dany had married according to the rites of the Faith. Something similar most likely was also the case with this Valyrian marriage rite Maegor used to marry Alys. As of yet, we don't know if a septon ever officiated at a polygamous marriage. It's not impossible, but if it was done, it was most likely because Maegor forced some poor septon to marry him to wife #3-#last. You seem to conflate the HS with Aenys. If Aenys had refused to exile Maegor--what would the HS have done? So HS can only complain. He cannot really enforce anything. I did not see in your report anything that said that the second marriage was not a marriage. Your quote from HS was: "The High Septon demanded that Maegor leave 'the whore of Harroway' and return to his lawful wife." If HS did not believe it was a marriage at all, there would be nothing to return to. This exchange struck me as more of a political problem--Lord Hightower was really upset and I am sure the HS did not like Maegor going behind his back to perform a non-Faith ceremony. But the HS seems to accept the 5-year exile as punishment, which seemed to accept that at the end of the 5 years, Maegor would come back with his second wife--and they would be recognized as married. What exactly do you think would be the consequences of Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna--and if disinheritance--why would you think such a harsh reaction from Aerys? Aerys would not really care what the HS thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlan of Pennytree Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 And again, if The Faith and the Old Gods followers didn't view polygamy as BAD-BAD-BAD, there would be a lot, like half (at least) of the population engaging in it, not just two wildlings and princes of a bloodline that held themselves above the Gods. :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I think Rhaegar went missing before Lyanna. Or at least, I don't believe all of his efforts to go and move to the ToJ were made for Lyanna. Why taking the woman you love there? It was his secret hiding for something else, and thenhe took Lyanna there. I disagree. The point of ToJ was to have a place to take Lyanna until she gave birth. R needed to have the third head of the dragon in hand before returning to court. He certainly was not going to stay at ToJ forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I just have a hard time believe he would go through all this foolishness even though he's just a prince. his father was not exactly a fan of him and Pissing off both the Martells and the Starks just for a third Child just seem beyond extraordinarily stupid for Rhaegar to do. And you know this would piss off the Martells and Stark how...? I think there is evidence that Elia knew what was going on that she and Rhaegar talked quite a bit about all this. As far as the Starks: Rickard had huge southron ambitions. It doesn't get more southern ambition-y than the crown prince. I guess BearQueen87 tries to play the 'a guy like Septon Maribald is just so nice' card. Surely he would help two sweethearts to fulfill their heart's desire... Sure he would, but I guess he would rethink the whole thing if the sweethearts would give him their real names, i.e. Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone, and heir to the Iron Throne of Aegon the Conqueror, and Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. If they did not give their real names, the marriage would have been invalid, anyway, at least that's how it's done in the real world... I'm also playing the "polygamy is not outlawed" card That one trumps everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I disagree. The point of ToJ was to have a place to take Lyanna until she gave birth. R needed to have the third head of the dragon in hand before returning to court. He certainly was not going to stay at ToJ forever. Why not taking her to Starfall? Or Harrenhall? if he wanted to keep a pregnant woman comfortable, why taking her to the worst place available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I guess BearQueen87 tries to play the 'a guy like Septon Maribald is just so nice' card. Surely he would help two sweethearts to fulfill their heart's desire... Sure he would, but I guess he would rethink the whole thing if the sweethearts would give him their real names, i.e. Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone, and heir to the Iron Throne of Aegon the Conqueror, and Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. If they did not give their real names, the marriage would have been invalid, anyway, at least that's how it's done in the real world... Do we know whether an exchange of names is required as part of a Westeros wedding ceremony? Westeros clearly is NOT the real world. We also don't know whether Maribald could not have been bribed to officiate over the wedding even if he knew who they were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlan of Pennytree Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 . . .What exactly do you think would be the consequences of Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna--and if disinheritance--why would you think such a harsh reaction from Aerys? Aerys would not really care what the HS thought. The legitimacy of their child ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Why not taking her to Starfall? Or Harrenhall? if he wanted to keep a pregnant woman comfortable, why taking her to the worst place available. I would have thought that was obvious--he needed some place remote where no one would find them. Starfall and Herrenhall introduce too many risks of being spotted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Why not taking her to Starfall? Or Harrenhall? if he wanted to keep a pregnant woman comfortable, why taking her to the worst place available. Both places are more open and easy to send soldiers to. The ToJ is pretty remote comparatively Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Your quote from HS was: "The High Septon demanded that Maegor leave 'the whore of Harroway' and return to his lawful wife." If HS did not believe it was a marriage at all, there would be nothing to return to. Wait, doesn't that quote make it clear that the High Septon didn't consider Harroway to be a lawful wife of Maegor? Edit: As Ran has said, the relationship between the High Septon and the throne has changed since Maegor. The High Septon basically did what the King said until the high sparrow. I feel like in Rhaegar's day only the most devout people (or people who had a political interest in getting that marriage declared invalid) would care what the High Septon had to say about a marriage being valid, once it was accepted by the king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I would have thought that was obvious--he needed some place remote where no one would find them. Starfall and Herrenhall introduce too many risks of being spotted. Both places are more open and easy to send soldiers to. The ToJ is pretty remote comparatively Fine. He stays in the tower, Lyanna goes hidding to some better place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Fine. He stays in the tower, Lyanna goes hidding to some better place. But...why? The ToJ is safe and comfortable-ish. It has guards and servants and food coming in. And most important, it's much safer than a High Lord House where surely word that Lyanna was being kept there would have gotten out (servant gossip and whatnot) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Fine. He stays in the tower, Lyanna goes hidding to some better place. What are you suggesting? That Lyanna was held at ToJ against her will? Too much evidence to the contrary. Obviously they were going to stay together--and obviously there was a risk of Lyanna being spotted as well if she went elsewhere. They brought whatever they could (servants, wet nurse), likely from Starfall, to make them as comfortable as possible. But going some place better to have the child was just not likely seen as an option to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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