R+L=J v99

[J. Stargaryen]

Funny enough, Kevan thinking Rhaegar wanted sons makes me more inclined to believe that Rhaegar wanted a daughter. IMO none of the Lannisters (except maybe Jaime) really knew/understood Rhaegar.

I suppose that's one way to look at it. I'm not sure about Kevan so much, but when you read Cersei's POV chapters you realize she's wrong quite often.

[Harlaw's Book the Sequel]

I suppose that's one way to look at it. I'm not sure about Kevan so much, but when you read Cersei's POV chapters you realize she's wrong quite often.

I do wonder whether Kevan's conclusion comes from his own observation or if he's just echoing Tywin.

Either way, I think Kevan is trying to explain Rhaegar's actions as if Rhaegar was acting like a typical Westerosi where sons are valued over daughters. Considering Iron Throne succession, Kevan would probably think the Targaryen Crown Prince would value a son even more than the usual noble. I don't think Kevan could fathom a situation where Rhaegar would want a daughter over a son.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Some people take it as a given that Rhaegar expected a girl with Lyanna. One that he would likely have named Visenya. It makes sense, but is by no means conclusive. In opposition to that idea, I noticed a while back that both Cersei and Kevan Lannister reference Rhaegar's hypothetical sons. At first I took that as a hint that he did in fact have more than one of them; i.e., R+L=J. But, I wonder if he hadn't expressed a desire to have multiple sons, and that's what Cersei and Kevan are thinking about.

- AFfC, Cersei VIII

- ADwD, Epilogue

But isn't that expected or a highborn man in a ruling position, to want multiple sons as his heirs?

If RhEgar had had only daughters, for example, Viserys would have continued the line on the throne (in a sort of Baelor I/Viserys II type of situation).

[J. Stargaryen]

I do wonder whether Kevan's conclusion comes from his own observation or if he's just echoing Tywin.

Either way, I think Kevan is trying to explain Rhaegar's actions as if Rhaegar was acting like a typical Westerosi where sons are valued over daughters. Considering Iron Throne succession, Kevan would probably think the Targaryen Crown Prince would value a son even more than the usual noble. I don't think Kevan could fathom a situation where Rhaegar would want a daughter over a son.

But isn't that expected or a highborn man in a ruling position, to want multiple sons as his heirs?

If RhEgar had had only daughters, for example, Viserys would have continued the line on the throne (in a sort of Baelor I/Viserys II type of situation).

You both could be correct, of course. I just wanted to point out that we have a couple of characters who think about Rhaegar wanting sons. And sure, it could be set up as an ironic twist, I suppose. Everybody assumes the crown prince wanted multiple sons but, in actuality, he was hoping for a second daughter. And lastly, it might just be what I initially thought it was: GRRM hinting at R+L=J by having characters think about Rhaegar's sons, plural. It especially reads—or could be read—that way in Cersei's thoughts: Rhaegar would be our king today and I would be his queen, the mother of his sons. I would be . . . the mother of his sons. Kind of like GRRM planting the idea of two sons in the reader's subconscious.

All that said, considering some of the discussion in these threads lately, I thought it was worth mentioning.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Nice!! Well this will make Unmasked Lurker happy. (and me since I'm right there with him)

I really do think he expected a boy with Lyanna.

BQ87--You are correct. It makes me VERY happy. Most of the time, you and I are "running with the pack" regarding our theories (i.e., our theories line up more or less with the thoughts of the majority of frequent posters), but the theory that Rhaegar concluded (or at least strongly suspected) that Lyanna would give birth to TPTWP (and Aegon was only one of the heads of the dragon and not TPTWP) is one on which you and I are a bit out on a limb (and might be required to eat a bit of crow one day if this issue is revealed conclusively one way or the other by GRRM--and crow, whether of the three-eyed variety or otherwise, is not particularly tasty). So even though these quotes are not "direct" evidence that Rhaegar expected his child with Lyanna to be a boy, any additional "clues" that Rhaegar was expecting to have more than one son warms my heart just a bit. But if it turns out that you and I were correct about this issue, at least we will be able to claim the lion's share of the credit for ourselves for having deduced it.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I figured you two would be happy.

Yes, J. Star, thanks for uncovering those gems.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I do wonder whether Kevan's conclusion comes from his own observation or if he's just echoing Tywin.

Either way, I think Kevan is trying to explain Rhaegar's actions as if Rhaegar was acting like a typical Westerosi where sons are valued over daughters. Considering Iron Throne succession, Kevan would probably think the Targaryen Crown Prince would value a son even more than the usual noble. I don't think Kevan could fathom a situation where Rhaegar would want a daughter over a son.

Just to be clear--I don't think these quotes about Rhaegar are direct evidence of what Rhaegar would have been thinking at the time he went off with Lyanna. Any understanding that Kevan or Cersei would have had of Rhaegar would have been at a time before he married Elia and when Rhaegar still thought that he himself was TPTWP, and thus would not have thought about his children being the three heads of the dragon and possibly thinking about re-creating Aegon I and his two sisters with his own children. I agree with J. Star that most likely these quotes are hints to the reader that Rhaegar in fact had more than one son. But they also could be clues to the reader to consider whether, at the time he went off with Lyanna, Rhaegar expected to have another son rather than another daughter.

My principal arguments for why I do not believe that Rhaegar was trying to re-create Aegon I and his two sisters and expected his child with Lyanna to be TPTWP are largely independent of what Rhaegar might have been thinking prior to marrying Elia (and which I have discussed many times before but can summarize again for anyone who is interested).

[Alia of the knife]

Some people take it as a given that Rhaegar expected a girl with Lyanna. One that he would likely have named Visenya. It makes sense, but is by no means conclusive. In opposition to that idea, I noticed a while back that both Cersei and Kevan Lannister reference Rhaegar's hypothetical sons. At first I took that as a hint that he did in fact have more than one of them; i.e., R+L=J. But, I wonder if he hadn't expressed a desire to have multiple sons, and that's what Cersei and Kevan are thinking about.

- AFfC, Cersei VIII

- ADwD, Epilogue

I've been making that argument for awhile, and even if he was trying to mimic Aegon and his sisters, he got the names wrong because Visenya was the oldest sister.

[Lord Varys]

There is no reason to believe that Rhaegar wanted to mimic Aegon and his two sisters with his three dragon heads. They were the founders of the royal House Targaryen of Westeros, but neither Aegon nor any of his sisters was a past savior of mankind, as far as I know.

It is clearly a misconception to connect Rhaegar's quote 'the dragon must have have three heads' with the heraldic symbol of House Targaryen (also done by Jorah/Dany in-universe). The three-headed dragon on their banners symbolizes Aegon and his sister, but Rhaegar clearly referred to a prophecy which is much older than the decision to make a three-headed dragon the Targaryen sigil.

In that sense, Rhaegar could have expected both a son and a daughter - the important thing was another 'head'. If it had been daughter, the name Visenya would have made sense - if he also wanted to connect his children to Aegon and his sisters (which would not be impossible).

As I've often said, for me it's very unlikely/all but impossible that Rhaegar decided that his child by Lyanna would be the promised prince, but even I admit that we have really no clues what happened during all those months he and Lyanna disappeared. Rhaegar must have been aware of the prophecy the woods witch made to his grandfather, and he actually may have looked for her before or after he had taken Elia. If this was the case, then he could have really had known that Lyanna's child would have been of paramount importance in the coming War for the Dawn - even if he wasn't the promised prince. That could has figured into Rhaegar's decision to keep the three KG at the Tower, and the orders he gave them. If they only believed they protected the (soon to be born) new king (or a prince of the blood), but the mother of (one of the) savior(s) of mankind, their decision to prevent Ned from entering the Tower makes even more sense. And at least Oswell and Arthur must have known pretty much all of the things Rhaegar knew and believed.

As to the location/function of the Tower of Joy:

I just checked 'The Lands of Ice and Fire' maps (those of you who have the App can also check the location in there), and the Tower is also located along the Prince's Pass, but I don't think we can deduce without the shadow of a doubt that on Dornish soil, or within the Reach. The fact that the Mountains of Dorne are still behind the Tower strongly suggests that it is located in the lower ridges of the mountains, and we don't really know at which point Dornish territory begins.

The location makes it very unlikely that there was much contact between Starfall and the Tower, since the Daynes would have to cross the whole Prince's Pass to reach the Tower.

I've also strong doubts that the Tower belonged the Martells or any Martell vassal - if that had been the case, Prince Doran would have eventually caught wind of Rhaegar's presence there, and sent some armed men to him to invite him to Sunspear and ask him sternly what the hell he was doing at this place with a woman that was not Elia...

Thus I'd assume that the Tower was actually a fief of the Crown, just as Pennytree eventually became, perhaps going back to the time of Daeron II and Myriah (they could have named it their Tower of Joy), or to another Targaryen with a Dornish spouse (if any existed between Daeron II and Rhaegar).

[UnmaskedLurker]

Thus I'd assume that the Tower was actually a fief of the Crown, just as Pennytree eventually became, perhaps going back to the time of Daeron II and Myriah (they could have named it their Tower of Joy), or to another Targaryen with a Dornish spouse (if any existed between Daeron II and Rhaegar).

There is much in this post with which I have an issue--but I will save my thoughts on them for another day. I re-print only this last part of the post regarding the naming of the tower to point that I was pretty sure that it was stated somewhere that Rhaegar named it the Tower of Joy and that it did not have that name prior to Rhaegar and Lyanna being there. Can someone find the quote to confirm my recollection?

[Lord Varys]

Ah, okay, you are right. But still, it could turn out that he only reinvented/reused the name. But even if this was not the case, my guess is that the Tower was not under the legal control of some other noble. If Rhaegar took it from somebody, they would have complained, and most likely spread the tale...

[Alia of the knife]

Funny enough, Kevan thinking Rhaegar wanted sons makes me more inclined to believe that Rhaegar wanted a daughter. IMO none of the Lannisters (except maybe Jaime) really knew/understood Rhaegar.

I also agree this. Much of what the Lannisters think and say of Cersei reflect Lannister pride and arrogance and" Cersei-centric."

If you asked the Starks about Lyanna, I'm sure they would say something about the beauty of the night extinguishing the flames, or the moon blotting out the sun.

Even Robert still goes on about her beauty, and I'm pretty sure Rhaegar would have run off with Patchface if he was married to Cersei, which is why I suspect he had as much to do with saying no to the match as Aerys.

What I do think was known was his need for heirs, and Elias health would have been a subject of speculation.

[BearQueen87]

The location makes it very unlikely that there was much contact between Starfall and the Tower, since the Daynes would have to cross the whole Prince's Pass to reach the Tower.

It's not as if they were making daily trips. I picture more like a wagon or two making its way up to the TOJ every month or so with food supplies and basic living necessities (and a servant or two).

[UnmaskedLurker]

Ah, okay, you are right. But still, it could turn out that he only reinvented/reused the name. But even if this was not the case, my guess is that the Tower was not under the legal control of some other noble. If Rhaegar took it from somebody, they would have complained, and most likely spread the tale...

It was a remote and abandoned old watch tower. No one thought about it or went near it, most likely, so no one would complain. Now I am not saying your theory regarding the ownership of the tower is wrong, I am just saying that even if the tower was in someone else's territory, no one would have known they were there, so no one would have complained. That was the whole point of hiding at ToJ--it was remote and abandoned and no one went there any more.

[Lord Varys]

Well, I don't think Rhaegar would have minded to marry Cersei. She had broader hips (just my guess, didn't check it myself) and a much better health than Elia, so she really would have provided the Targaryens with a lot more heirs, that's for sure.

Whether Rhaegar would have ever loved Cersei is another matter. We really don't know yet what draw him to Lyanna.

BQ87,

the Manwoodys or Fowlers would make much more sense for such an enterprise, since Kingsgrave and Skyreach are much closer to the Tower than Starfall. But we don't really know why they would support them, do we? And I guess the Fowlers - as Wardens of the Prince's Pass - would have been very interested in those provision transports.

I don't think Rhaegar would have gone to some abandoned tower. Why the hell would he have gone down towards Dorne anyway? He must have known where he was going, and that could be a hint that he know that tower was there. The quote about the Tower of Joy does only state that Rhaegar called it by that name, not that he invented the name, does it?

[BearQueen87]

Well, I don't think Rhaegar would have minded to marry Cersei. She had broader hips (just my guess, didn't check it myself) and a much better health than Elia, so she really would have provided the Targaryens with a lot more heirs, that's for sure.

Whether Rhaegar would have ever loved Cersei is another matter. We really don't know yet what draw him to Lyanna.

I can't remember if it was Alia or Ygrain, but one of them made the argument that Rhaegar actually rejected Cersei upon meeting her because he could tell that she wasn't on the level (sanity wise).

Rejecting Tywin's daughter and then marrying a Dornish lady never made much sense in my head, politically speaking, so I think Rhaegar had a say and didn't want to go near Cersei.

he Manwoodys or Fowlers would make much more sense for such an enterprise, since Kingsgrave and Skyreach are much closer to the Tower than Starfall. But we don't really know why they would support them, do we? And I guess the Fowlers - as Wardens of the Prince's Pass - would have been very interested in those provision transports.

I agree it would be easy to use Kingsgrave or Skyreach, but can Starfall is loyal beyond question and already has an "in" with Arthur Dayne.

don't think Rhaegar would have gone to some abandoned tower. Why the hell would he have gone down towards Dorne anyway? He must have known where he was going, and that could be a hint that he know that tower was there. The quote about the Tower of Joy does only state that Rhaegar called it by that name, not that he invented the name, does it?

I'm still searching for the exact quote, but I'm pretty sure it says "at a place Rhaegar had named the Tower of Joy"

[Alia of the knife]

But isn't that expected or a highborn man in a ruling position, to want multiple sons as his heirs?

If RhEgar had had only daughters, for example, Viserys would have continued the line on the throne (in a sort of Baelor I/Viserys II type of situation).

Exactly.

The primary function of both Rhaegar and Elia was to prevent a succession crisis, causing another dance of dragons, and there is nothing to prevent an older Viserys from challenging Rhaegar one day,(Tywin kept hope alive that Cersei might marry Viserys if not Rhaegar).

Tywin also kept Cersei close at Court in the event Elia died.

Since GRRM uses The War of the Roses model here, there is very much the Duke of Clarence in Viserys as there is Warwick in Tywin.

We see the Tyells now assuming that role with Marg being used the same way Cersei was, and likely to meet the same end for her ambition.

[Alia of the knife]

In the Medieval period, prophesy played a critical part in the very EARTHLY motivations and ambitions of the players.

Nothing like telling the people that God ordained you to be King/Queen, or that your child was destined to rule.

Having well placed clergymen and family members in the church to bolster those beliefs was also helpful.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I don't think Rhaegar would have gone to some abandoned tower. Why the hell would he have gone down towards Dorne anyway? He must have known where he was going, and that could be a hint that he know that tower was there. The quote about the Tower of Joy does only state that Rhaegar called it by that name, not that he invented the name, does it?

Again, I am pretty sure it is stated somewhere that ToJ was an abandoned tower. I thought that fact was canon--but maybe I am mistaken. My recollection is that Rhaegar knew of this abandoned tower and had gone there before to be alone, but that it otherwise had not been used by others. Below I am re-printing the entire wiki entry--which admittedly is not canon. The wiki states that the tower is in Dorne and that Rhaegar named it. It says nothing about whether it had been an abandoned watch tower--I don't remember where I read that information (or whether my memory is playing tricks).

The Tower of Joy^[1] or tower of joy^[2] was a round tower in the northern edge of the Red Mountains of Dorne.^[2] It lay in the Prince's Pass,^[3] withKingsgrave to the south and Nightsong to the north.^[4]

History

The tower was named the Tower of Joy by Rhaegar Targaryen. He used it as a hideout where he kept Lyanna Stark.^[2] Lyanna stayed there after Rhaegar left to lead his father Aerys II's war against Robert Baratheon's rebellion.

At the end of the war, Eddard Stark and six of his companions (Howland Reed, Lord Willam Dustin, Ethan Glover, Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull, and SerMark Ryswell) approached the tower. They found it guarded by three members of the Kingsguard (Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Oswell Whent, and Lord Commander Gerold Hightower). Eddard and Howland were the only survivors of the resulting battle. Eddard had the tower torn down to build cairns for the eight deceased.^[2]

[BearQueen87]

Muahahahah. Found it

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory’s father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.