R+L=J v99

[sj4iy]

Melisandre!

Anyway, why would lightbringer need to be reforged? Is it stated somewhere that this needs to be done?

Melisandre isn't the person Jon loves the most.

“In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.”

We don't know for certain that Lightbringer will have to be reforged, but it certainly seems that people THINK it will have to be reforged.

[UnmaskedLurker]

The ToJ is a ruined and disused tower in a remote region. It's probably one of a number or ruins in the area (we know of at least one other, the Vulture's Roost). Unless there's a leak from somewhere, it's a pretty safe place to be. The biggest issue with the ToJ as a hideout is supply -- it's a fair bet that the 3KG aren't spending their days farming -- so until the supply line to the ToJ is endangered, there would be no good reason to move on, certainly not if it means taking the risk of moving a newborn and a very sick mother.

I think it's also a fair bet that the supply line could be shorter than the journey to Starfall. It's tempting to see Starfall as the heart of everything with Dayne at the ToJ, but Starfall's actually not that close to the ToJ. There may have been regular supplies coming in from Kingsgrave, perhaps a day's rather than a week's journey from the ToJ. This wouldn't even need the cooperation of House Manwoody, as presumably there's a town there someone from the ToJ could wander into incognito to pick up a bit of shopping and gossip. The raven network keeps information flowing around Westeros pretty fast, and I see no reason that news wouldn't reach the ToJ a lot faster than Ned did.

I have had the same thought about the distance to Starfall, but I continue to return to Starfall as the likely supply location because I think an option like you suggest would be too dangerous. They need to make sure they are seen only by the most loyal servants. What if someone follows them from town to ToJ for some reason? Also, what would they trade with? Did they bring a years' supply of gold to ToJ?

No, while the alternative you suggest is possible, it seems that some sort of regular delivery, perhaps once or twice a month, from Starfall would be the safest way to keep the location a secret. Starfall is the only location somewhat near by that would have people that could be trusted implicitly.

[RumHam]

This is your point of contention? How does the recurring phrase of "Promise me, Ned" and repeated recollections of flower crowns, blue winter roses while he's awake not strongly indicate that the topic of Lyanna and her demise at the TOJ notably unsettled him all these years? This realistically provokes these semi and/or unconscious images later on in GOT. Furthermore, how does the Baroque vibe of Ned's "recurring"/"old"-this-shit-has-haunted-him-for-over-a-decade-tainted dream/recollection have any impact on how the reader should perceive it? I'm just not getting this.

I too thought of it as a recurring dream, and was surprised to learn that it wasn't, at least in the sense I was thinking. He hadn't had the dream in a while and we don't know how many times he had it overall. That is all I was saying. Because it's a dream that Martin has said not to take literally, I find line by line analysis of it to be a little...I dunno misguided? But then as I said it's really all we have to go on, so I understand. I'm not trying to use the fact that it wasn't a dream he had once every month or whatever to discredit the R+L=J theory.

[Kingmonkey]

I have had the same thought about the distance to Starfall, but I continue to return to Starfall as the likely supply location because I think an option like you suggest would be too dangerous. They need to make sure they are seen only by the most loyal servants. What if someone follows them from town to ToJ for some reason? Also, what would they trade with? Did they bring a years' supply of gold to ToJ?

A year's supply of gold would probably fit in someone's pocket. Wiki says there are 11,760 pennies to the dragon. The gulf between rich and poor in Westeros is huge.

I'd think a supply wagon making regular week-long journeys between Starfall and the ToJ would be more likely to attract attention than some random Dayne servant wandering into a small town in the red mountains to do a bit of shopping every few days.

OTOH GRRM doesn't tend to worry too much about the fine details of travel times and distances, so maybe we shouldn't!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I too thought of it as a recurring dream, and was surprised to learn that it wasn't, at least in the sense I was thinking. He hadn't had the dream in a while and we don't know how many times he had it overall. That is all I was saying. Because it's a dream that Martin has said not to take literally, I find line by line analysis of it to be a little...I dunno misguided? But then as I said it's really all we have to go on, so I understand. I'm not trying to use the fact that it wasn't a dream he had once every month or whatever to discredit the R+L=J theory.

I always thought that Ned had the dream often in the beginning (shortly after the events at ToJ had happened), and the dreams just became less frequent later on, until he reached the point that he would dream it only every now and then.. every so many years..

[MtnLion]

Why the hell is this even an issue? Are we down to splitting hairs this small?

Perhaps the write up makes too much sense, so it is an attack on the author's choice of words? ;)

[RumHam]

Wiki says there are 11,760 pennies to the dragon.

I wouldn't put too much stock in that number, it's based on stuff that isn't really canon.

[Ygrain]

I too thought of it as a recurring dream, and was surprised to learn that it wasn't, at least in the sense I was thinking. He hadn't had the dream in a while and we don't know how many times he had it overall. That is all I was saying. Because it's a dream that Martin has said not to take literally, I find line by line analysis of it to be a little...I dunno misguided? But then as I said it's really all we have to go on, so I understand. I'm not trying to use the fact that it wasn't a dream he had once every month or whatever to discredit the R+L=J theory.

Exactly because it's not a literal record of what happened, it needs a line by line analysis, as does every piece of text that describes the surreal rather than real.

[MtnLion]

So any other details that show they know before Ned tells them? I can't remember, but someone here will have the angles available.

TIA.

When Ned arrives, Whent is described as being on one knee (I believe facing the tower, offhand) sharpening his sword. Whent is preparing for battle, because all things are known, even that there can be no compromise. Facing the tower, on bent knee, strongly implies royalty at the tower, too. The dialog was likely just a formality, even if it was far more than the dream dialog.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I too thought of it as a recurring dream, and was surprised to learn that it wasn't, at least in the sense I was thinking. He hadn't had the dream in a while and we don't know how many times he had it overall. That is all I was saying. Because it's a dream that Martin has said not to take literally, I find line by line analysis of it to be a little...I dunno misguided? But then as I said it's really all we have to go on, so I understand. I'm not trying to use the fact that it wasn't a dream he had once every month or whatever to discredit the R+L=J theory.

Whether he had the dream 1000 times or only once before really does not matter. The fact that it is an "old" dream means that Ned first dreamt this dream when the events were closer in time--so the accuracy has some level of reliability. But I believe that more important, if it is not an actual line-by-line recreation of that actual conversation, it arguably is MORE reliable than a recreation of the conversation. This "memory" of Ned's is basically Ned's subconscious recreating a conversation that conveys the essence of what Ned believed was important from that event. It explains the KG's views about Aerys and Viserys and their vows, etc.

So it is completely irrelevant whether it is a truthful retelling of the conversation--it tells a bigger truth. It tells the story of Ned's understanding of what happened and why--and what the KG stood for at that time. So a line-by-line analysis is not useful only if it is an analysis of the actual conversation--it is useful because it is a retelling of the story by Ned possibly taking into account everything he learned from Lyanna after the battle. So maybe the KG did not say anything about having sworn a vow--but Lyanna explained to Ned that they were keeping their vow first to Rhaegar and then the vow to protect the new king. So Ned might have added those words in the mouths of the KG (I am not saying he did--just an example). The information is equally if not more useful if invented by Ned than if actually spoken. It really does not matter if actually spoken--as it tells a bigger truth. Thus, the line-by-line analysis must be reliable because Ned would not have dreamt something that would have been inconsistent with his understanding of what happened.

So if you are suggesting that part of the conversation will be found out to be something that would be inconsistent with what actually happened on that day--I think you are incorrect. There would be no point in Ned dreaming that way and then having the reaction he has to the dream if it is not basically what happened--and there would be no point in GRRM writing that way. He does not put in these sorts of clues to mislead.

[Salazor Ahai Stormborn]

So it is completely irrelevant whether it is a truthful retelling of the conversation--it tells a bigger truth. It tells the story of Ned's understanding of what happened and why--and what the KG stood for at that time. So a line-by-line analysis is not useful only if it is an analysis of the actual conversation--it is useful because it is a retelling of the story by Ned possibly taking into account everything he learned from Lyanna after the battle. So maybe the KG did not say anything about having sworn a vow--but Lyanna explained to Ned that they were keeping their vow first to Rhaegar and then the vow to protect the new king. So Ned might have added those words in the mouths of the KG (I am not saying he did--just an example). The information is equally if not more useful if invented by Ned than if actually spoken. It really does not matter if actually spoken--as it tells a bigger truth. Thus, the line-by-line analysis must be reliable because Ned would not have dreamt something that would have been inconsistent with his understanding of what happened.

Exactly. Some things were spoken and some were not, the dream is a mix of what happened and what Ned later realized.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

Melisandre isn't the person Jon loves the most.

“In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.”

We don't know for certain that Lightbringer will have to be reforged, but it certainly seems that people THINK it will have to be reforged.

Dawn is Lightbringer. problem solved. Jon is Sword of the Morning on top of AA reborn. Though I guess he'd have to be a Dayne technically, B+A=J?? nahhhhh

[BearQueen87]

Dawn is Lightbringer. problem solved. Jon is Sword of the Morning on top of AA reborn. Though I guess he'd have to be a Dayne technically, B+A=J?? nahhhhh

Jon is all the things! lol

[stateofdissipation]

When Ned arrives, Whent is described as being on one knee (I believe facing the tower, offhand) sharpening his sword. Whent is preparing for battle, because all things are known, even that there can be no compromise. Facing the tower, on bent knee, strongly implies royalty at the tower, too. The dialog was likely just a formality, even if it was far more than the dream dialog.

They waited before the round tower at their backs, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind, And these were no shadows, their faces burned clear, even now. --aGoT page 409

Oswell went was on his knee sharpening his blade with a whetstone.Across his white enameled helm the black bat of his house spread its wings. aGoT page 409

He remembered Jamie Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling in the grass in front of the king's pavilion making his vows to protect and defend king Aerys.--aGoT page 607

Though court protocol suggests many must bend the knee when the king or queen enter a place, the Kingsguard do not do so, standing guard as is their duty (IV: 349)

http://www.westeros....ction/2.1.3.2./

Aside from the fact that Whent was facing Ned and kneeling is not something the kingsguard do for their king after swearing to protect and defend the king. It could be symbolic.

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Aside from the fact that the kingsguard do not get to make up their own orders, they could have decided what had to be done.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

Jon is all the things! lol

Jon is good

Jon is great

Jon is life

[Jon Snow Bengal]

What do you mean overlook? Jaime was at KL and no one knew that he would kill Aerys. And no one knew that Tywin would fool the King into opening the gates. The KG has no reason to suspect that Aegon and Aerys and Rhaenys were in mortal danger.

Overlook them as in overlook their claim. The KG had no reason to believe that A & R would be killed. Jon would be third in line to the throne. They were protecting a very important prince presumably on Rhaegars orders but not because they believed the child was the king.

[BearQueen87]

Overlook them as in overlook their claim. The KG had no reason to believe that A & R would be killed. Jon would be third in line to the throne. They were protecting a very important prince presumably on Rhaegars orders but not because they believed the child was the king.

1) Rhaenys has no claim as a girl. The title would pass to Viserys if Aegon was dead and Jon not legit.

2) It's likely that the KG get all the news--Rhaegar, Aerys, and Aegons' deaths--at once. By that time, Jon is probably very recently born and thus is king.

[Jon Snow Bengal]

Melisandre isn't the person Jon loves the most.

Neither is Dany. Do you think this is going to be a love story?

I don't buy into the reforging theory anyway. How long did it take for lightbringer to be forged the first time? I remember it being a very long time and I'm not sure if the person wielding the blade, whoever that might be, will have that long a time. If they have to reforge the sword and go through the whole stabbing it into a loved ones heart debacle all over again then they may as well make it a new one from scratch.

[Jon Snow Bengal]

1) Rhaenys has no claim as a girl. The title would pass to Viserys if Aegon was dead and Jon not legit.

2) It's likely that the KG get all the news--Rhaegar, Aerys, and Aegons' deaths--at once. By that time, Jon is probably very recently born and thus is king.

Good points. But Jon would be legit if they were married.

If the KG did get all the information at once (via ned) then they would've had to process this information very quickly and collaborate between themselves & unite in their shared belief that Jon is king and therefore they must defend the king to the death. Makes sense. Maybe it is at this point that Ned learns the truth from them (about the marriage and that Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly) the information flows two ways.

[BearQueen87]

Good points. But Jon would be legit if they were married.

If the KG did get all the information at once (via ned) then they would've had to process this information very quickly and collaborate between themselves & unite in their shared belief that Jon is king and therefore they must defend the king to the death. Makes sense. Maybe it is at this point that Ned learns the truth from them (about the marriage and that Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly) the information flows two ways.

Pretty sure the KG knew it all before Ned got there. Ned is relaying information that they already know, he's testing the KG.