Lord Varys Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 The interesting thing with the news things would be how the hell Starfall - or any castle close to the Tower - should have gotten reliable news from KL. Surely all Targaryen loyalists in KL were in custody for quite some time, and I don't think that anyone at court would have been allowed to send ravens to Dorne. Especially not after what had happened to Elia and her children. The broad strokes would have been known by the public - Rhaegar's death at the Trident, for sure, since it happened even before the Sack - and Aerys' death - but not necessarily the death of the children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 The interesting thing with the news things would be how the hell Starfall - or any castle close to the Tower - should have gotten reliable news from KL. Surely all Targaryen loyalists in KL were in custody for quite some time, and I don't think that anyone at court would have been allowed to send ravens to Dorne. Especially not after what had happened to Elia and her children. The broad strokes would have been known by the public - Rhaegar's death at the Trident, for sure, since it happened even before the Sack - and Aerys' death - but not necessarily the death of the children. Seems that news travels faster than protagonists, just like in JRPGs. With all the soldiers fleeing the Trident, some heading back to Dorne, they would hear the news and it would spread back with them. There are only a few ways into Dorne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 From the Trident, yeah, but from KL? The city was taken by Tywin, and sacked. I don't think he let many people leave, and why the hell would they who got out/were allowed to leave go to Dorne? Dornish survivors from the Trident would know news about the Trident, not the Sack. At least not if they did not first head to KL, which is unlikely. But even if they did, they would have arrived there much later than Ned, and consequently would not have outrun him on his way south. This is a medieval setting - if the conveniently raven cannot be used, news travels about as far as a man can ride on a horse on a day. And regions who are cut off from the raven network, and/or are too remote to be visited by the occasional traveler, shouldn't get any news at all. We also don't know if a Dayne knew that Lyanna and the KG were at the Tower. Yeah, it could have been an ancient Dayne keep, but even if that's the case, we don't really know if Rhaegar/Arthur told anyone in Starfall that they were staying there. If only some people in KL learned/suspected that Rhaegar had been there after he had returned from there - who then, in turn, told Ned where he might find Lyanna - then it would be a huge stretch to assume that the guys in Starfall would have sent a rider to the Tower to inform them about events at the Trident in KL - if they had learned about them in time somehow - because they would not have known that they were there... By the way, doesn't the Tower seem to be in the Marches, not in Dornish territory? It is near the Red Mountains, but on the non-Dornish side, and this either in the Stormlands (most likely) or in the Reach. It would be very unlikely if it was once owned by House Dayne - although it could once have been part of the holdings controlled from Summerhall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 From the Trident, yeah, but from KL? The city was taken by Tywin, and sacked. I don't think he let many people leave, and why the hell would they who got out/were allowed to leave go to Dorne? Dornish survivors from the Trident would know news about the Trident, not the Sack. At least not if they did not first head to KL, which is unlikely. But even if they did, they would have arrived there much later than Ned, and consequently would not have outrun him on his way south. This is a medieval setting - if the conveniently raven cannot be used, news travels about as far as a man can ride on a horse on a day. And regions who are cut off from the raven network, and/or are too remote to be visited by the occasional traveler, shouldn't get any news at all. We also don't know if a Dayne knew that Lyanna and the KG were at the Tower. Yeah, it could have been an ancient Dayne keep, but even if that's the case, we don't really know if Rhaegar/Arthur told anyone in Starfall that they were staying there. If only some people in KL learned/suspected that Rhaegar had been there after he had returned from there - who then, in turn, told Ned where he might find Lyanna - then it would be a huge stretch to assume that the guys in Starfall would have sent a rider to the Tower to inform them about events at the Trident in KL - if they had learned about them in time somehow - because they would not have known that they were there... By the way, doesn't the Tower seem to be in the Marches, not in Dornish territory? It is near the Red Mountains, but on the non-Dornish side, and this either in the Stormlands (most likely) or in the Reach. It would be very unlikely if it was once owned by House Dayne - although it could once have been part of the holdings controlled from Summerhall. Of course the news spread. Ned takes the time to go to lift the siege at SE and brings with him news of Robert being coronated--and presumably the news of the death of the Targs also spread. Ravens would have been sent to the 4 corners of Westeros to announce this news. Everyone would know who was on the "raven network." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 From the Trident, yeah, but from KL? The city was taken by Tywin, and sacked. I don't think he let many people leave, and why the hell would they who got out/were allowed to leave go to Dorne? Dornish survivors from the Trident would know news about the Trident, not the Sack. At least not if they did not first head to KL, which is unlikely. But even if they did, they would have arrived there much later than Ned, and consequently would not have outrun him on his way south. The Dornish soldiers would not have lingered, whereas Ned did in KL: waiting for Robert to arrive, then fighting with Robert, then heading to SE to lift the siege. ETA: How fast did the rumours/news of the Red Wedding spread around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 By the way, doesn't the Tower seem to be in the Marches, not in Dornish territory? It is near the Red Mountains, but on the non-Dornish side, and this either in the Stormlands (most likely) or in the Reach. It would be very unlikely if it was once owned by House Dayne - although it could once have been part of the holdings controlled from Summerhall. I don't have the exact quote in front of me, but when Ned remembers the TOJ at one point, he does say it's in Dorne. The red mountains of Dorne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Duncan the Small Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 I don't have the exact quote in front of me, but when Ned remembers the TOJ at one point, he does say it's in Dorne. The red mountains of Dorne ToJ is right above the Princes Pass, going from Marches to Dorne. Is in the Red Mountains per the map Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 I don't have the exact quote in front of me, but when Ned remembers the TOJ at one point, he does say it's in Dorne. The red mountains of Dorne "They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind." - AGoT p. 424 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 "They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind." - AGoT p. 424 :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Just because the mountains are visible doesn't mean it was located in Dorne. Though I think Martin once said the Tower of Joy wasn't part of Summerhall either. ToJ is right above the Princes Pass, going from Marches to Dorne. Is in the Red Mountains per the map Is it on one of the maps in the Lands of Ice and Fire? I don't think it was on the map of the south from Clash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mambru Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 ...The reason I pointed out the "if" is that I believe Mambru missed it. GRRM never actually says that Rhaegar gave those orders. Just that if he did, they would have followed them. He basically gave the interviewer a hypothetical scenario, which is obviously not the same as giving a definitive answer. *coos* Ooh, honey, what a big "if" you pulled out there... The reason that I originally quoted that interview question and answer from GRRM (which I will repost here, simply because I love it so)... Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else." ...is because Lady Gwynhyfvar was denying that the Kingsguard could possibly consider any orders given them to still have force after the death of the giver. The quote above shows, IMO, that the author himself says that if Rhaegar ordered the KG to do something at the Tower of Joy, the KG would be obliged to FOLLOW that order and fight Ned at the Tower of Joy - even long AFTER the death of Rhaegar (the giver of those orders) . They have no choice about it. Therefore, the Author Himself is endorsing the idea that the Kingsguard is bound to Obey orders they have been given even after the death of the giver of those orders. And really, does anyone believe that there's any doubt as to IF Rhaegar ordered those 3 KG to stay at the ToJ? Does anyone believe that before he left for the Trident, Rhaegar gave ANY of them permission to freely do what they wanted?Does anyone think that before riding off Rhaegar said something like "I'm off to war. You guys may go where you like and do what you think best; no pressure?"If he did say it, does anyone think the ToJ 3 replied, "Let's see, our King is in the middle of a civil war, and is surrounded by Royal family - and all of them potentially might have need of us at a moment's notice. So - I guess we'll all three of us CHOOSE to stay here and wait out the war while playing bridge with your polygamous second wife and/or girlfriend!"If anyone DOES think that, I'd love to hear their explanation as to why they think the ToJ 3 - who pride themselves on their courage - would act so cravenly. So - the Author Himself has said that if Rhaegar gave an order to the KG at the ToJ, that order would still be in force even after the death of Rhaegar AND the death of King Aerys - both of which events had already happened by the time the KG chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy. So if the KG are bound by the orders of Rhaegar to stay and guard Lyanna at the ToJ - even AFTER Rhaegar's death - they are bound by those orders regardless of whether Lyanna is Rhaegar's wife or Rhaegar's lover (and therefore, whether the child she bears is an heir or a bastard). And we therefore CAN'T judge which it is by the mere presence of the KG at the Tower. The possibility exists that it could be EITHER - and that's all I've really been arguing for, all along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Just because the mountains are visible doesn't mean it was located in Dorne. Though I think Martin once said the Tower of Joy wasn't part of Summerhall either. Is it on one of the maps in the Lands of Ice and Fire? I don't think it was on the map of the south from Clash. I have the books in electronic form and the map that accompanies them shows that the Tower of Joy is, yes Virginia, it is in Dorne. Here: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/3/3e/The_south_Adwd_map.jpg ETA: I'm also shocked that this was even a debate. Of course it was in Dorne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 I have the books in electronic form and the map that accompanies them shows that the Tower of Joy is, yes Virginia, it is in Dorne. Here: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/3/3e/The_south_Adwd_map.jpg ETA: I'm also shocked that this was even a debate. Of course it was in Dorne. Ah thanks, I stand corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Duncan the Small Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Just because the mountains are visible doesn't mean it was located in Dorne. Though I think Martin once said the Tower of Joy wasn't part of Summerhall either. Is it on one of the maps in the Lands of Ice and Fire? I don't think it was on the map of the south from Clash. It's overlooking the Northern end of the Princes Pass, South of Nightsong and just north of Kingsgrave. It's on the edge of the Mountains, right at the entrance of the Pass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 It's overlooking the Northern end of the Princes Pass, South of Nightsong and just north of Kingsgrave. It's on the edge of the Mountains, right at the entrance of the Pass Yeah I see it now, I thought I remembered looking for it once before and coming up empty. My memory is not what it should be. I also see it's nowhere near Starfall, so I guess that theory is out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Yeah I see it now, I thought I remembered looking for it once before and coming up empty. My memory is not what it should be. I also see it's nowhere near Starfall, so I guess that theory is out. It's further from Starfall than I'd've thought, but I don't think it negates the idea that Arthur brought Wylla to the Tower from Starfall in order to serve Lyanna. If Starfall is the only safe place to get staff, that's where you get staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Yeah I see it now, I thought I remembered looking for it once before and coming up empty. My memory is not what it should be. I also see it's nowhere near Starfall, so I guess that theory is out. There is something to be said about taking the harder road (like relying on Starfall given distance) but knowing that it's the safer route (very loyal, Dayne already with R and L). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 It's further from Starfall than I'd've thought, but I don't think it negates the idea that Arthur brought Wylla to the Tower from Starfall in order to serve Lyanna. If Starfall is the only safe place to get staff, that's where you get staff. I meant the theory that it was ruled from Starfall. I agree they could have gotten help from the Daynes. I wonder if the cadet branch at High Hermitage existed at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 There is something to be said about taking the harder road (like relying on Starfall given distance) but knowing that it's the safer route (very loyal, Dayne already with R and L). Yeah. For some reason I suspect the Daynes were very loyal to house Targaryen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 I meant the theory that it was ruled from Starfall. I agree they could have gotten help from the Daynes. I wonder if the cadet branch at High Hermitage existed at that time. I don't think anyone thought it was "ruled" from Starfall, only that Starfall was supplying it with information, food, staff and whatnot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.