R+L=J v99

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I'm still searching for the exact quote, but I'm pretty sure it says "at a place Rhaegar had named the Tower of Joy"

:) Rhaegar named it such

It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory.

Edit: whilst I was wrestling with my phone to post this, you ninja'd me ;)

[Lord Varys]

The fact that the Tower of Joy was located in the Red Mountains of Dorne does not (necessarily) mean that it was located in Dorne. The border between Dorne and the Dornish Marches (which aren't part of Dorne, but belong to the Stormlands and the Reach, respectively) is somewhere in those mountains, and we have no idea where exactly it goes.

I remembered that quote, but can we really be sure that Rhaegar first named the tower the Tower of Joy? It's Ned talking there, and the sentence begins with 'it has been said'...

Either Rhaegar knew about the tower in advance - then it must have had a history of sorts - or he just stumbled upon it, and stayed there. But then he would have been on his way to Dorne for some occult reason, no? This would make little sense, unless he wanted to explain things to Doran in person.

I'm not sure that the Daynes were loyal beyond a doubt. Starfall is bound to Sunspear, and Prince Doran was not loyal to the Targaryens without a doubt. Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar's best friend, yes, but he was a Kingsguard, and thus not exactly close to his family. Ashara Dayne was at one point Elia's lady-in-waiting - which could be a hint that she was not all that happy with what Rhaegar did, if she was personally close to Elia -, but neither was the Lord of Starfall. We really don't know if he shared - or cared - about any of his kin's sentiments...

[J. Stargaryen]

I've been making that argument for awhile, and even if he was trying to mimic Aegon and his sisters, he got the names wrong because Visenya was the oldest sister.

I know some people have argued that he named his first child Rhaenys, rather than Visenya, because the Targaryens descend from her line, whilst Visenya's died out with Maegor.

[BearQueen87]

The fact that the Tower of Joy was located in the Red Mountains of Dorne does not (necessarily) mean that it was located in Dorne. The border between Dorne and the Dornish Marches (which aren't part of Dorne, but belong to the Stormlands and the Reach, respectively) is somewhere in those mountains, and we have no idea where exactly it goes.

I gotta ask: why does it matter? It might be on the Dornish side, it might be on the Stormlands side. But that doesn't change the fact that it's close to three different keeps--Starfall being the most prominent--that could have been helping out. I don't think I understand where you're going with the "where is the TOJ" argument.

[Alia of the knife]

Wasn't High Hermitage closer?

[UnmaskedLurker]

The fact that the Tower of Joy was located in the Red Mountains of Dorne does not (necessarily) mean that it was located in Dorne. The border between Dorne and the Dornish Marches (which aren't part of Dorne, but belong to the Stormlands and the Reach, respectively) is somewhere in those mountains, and we have no idea where exactly it goes.

I remembered that quote, but can we really be sure that Rhaegar first named the tower the Tower of Joy? It's Ned talking there, and the sentence begins with 'it has been said'...

Either Rhaegar knew about the tower in advance - then it must have had a history of sorts - or he just stumbled upon it, and stayed there. But then he would have been on his way to Dorne for some occult reason, no? This would make little sense, unless he wanted to explain things to Doran in person.

I'm not sure that the Daynes were loyal beyond a doubt. Starfall is bound to Sunspear, and Prince Doran was not loyal to the Targaryens without a doubt. Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar's best friend, yes, but he was a Kingsguard, and thus not exactly close to his family. Ashara Dayne was at one point Elia's lady-in-waiting - which could be a hint that she was not all that happy with what Rhaegar did, if she was personally close to Elia -, but neither was the Lord of Starfall. We really don't know if he shared - or cared - about any of his kin's sentiments...

I think you are missing the entire reason and circumstances regarding Rhaegar going to ToJ. He does not go to ToJ on "his way to Dorne" or anywhere else. It was his end destination. He stayed there for almost a year with Lyanna, Whent and Dayne (and presumably some servants). Their likely original plan was that they were going to stay there until the baby was born and then go back to KL.

Dayne is not just a friend to Rhaegar and KG--he was assigned to Rhaegar (with Whent) by Aerys, so Dayne was with Rhaegar most of the time, but that does not mean he did not have a good relationship with his own family. We don't know whether Elia was part of the plan for Rhaegar to disappear with Lyanna. Elia might have been (I know BQ87 thinks she was--and I agree). But in any event, it makes sense that ToJ was a good location because no one went there anymore and it was within a reasonable traveling distance from somewhere that they could get reliable servants and supplies--thus the conclusion about Starfall.

You poke little holes in the theory--which is fine, that is what we are here for in part--but I don't see what you think is a more likely alternative?

[Lord Varys]

I don't go anywhere with that. I just wonder where it was, and what it might have meant going there. Surely there were a lot of other watchtowers in the Seven Kingdoms not as close to the major pass through the Red Mountains.

You guys should really not look for subtext when there is none.

But the tower was not close to Starfall. And, in fact, if it was provisioned by a castle, Nightsong would make even more sense, since the people from there wouldn't have cross the mountains to get there. The very thought is ridiculous, actually...

High Hermitage is nearly as far away as Starfall.

[MtnLion]

Nice. I wonder if we'll ever get Rickard or Brandon on GoT (or Rhaegar/Lyanna/ 3KG)

On GoT they filmed the sequence with Aerys, the strangling device, and Rickard beiong roasted. It is a very brief sequence, but they have it on film. You need to search the GoT website very, very carefully to find it. I didn't save a link, and have been unable to find it again.

[Lord Varys]

UL,

there is no textual evidence that Arthur/Oswell were assigned to Rhaegar by Aerys. That may be the case, but it's as of yet not confirmed. All we know is that they accompanied him.

Arthur may have had a good relationship with his family, but we don't really know that now, do we? Even if he had, having good relations with his family doesn't mean that Lord Dayne would have been particularly eager to help Rhaegar - especially not when the Prince of Dorne wasn't happy with what he was doing. That Doran was pissed somewhat is confirmed by the App.

What Elia know or thought about the whole Lyanna thing doesn't figure into that. Rhaegar publicly humiliated House Martell when he run away with Lyanna. Elia's personal feelings matter about as much in this thing as Lyanna's personal feelings prevented Brandon's, Robert's, and Ned's actions.

And you really think Prince Rhaegar Targaryen knew the location of/wanted to get to some remote watchtower near the Prince's Pass as his end destination? That sounds really strange to me, I must say...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On GoT they filmed the sequence with Aerys, the strangling device, and Rickard beiong roasted. It is a very brief sequence, but they have it on film. You need to search the GoT website very, very carefully to find it. I didn't save a link, and have been unable to find it again.

Perhaps they took it down?

[RumHam]

On GoT they filmed the sequence with Aerys, the strangling device, and Rickard beiong roasted. It is a very brief sequence, but they have it on film. You need to search the GoT website very, very carefully to find it. I didn't save a link, and have been unable to find it again.

Wait, you actually saw the scene? All I ever saw was that publicity photo I posted.

[MtnLion]

I mean we have to get something. This is one of the reasons I think if they were married it was a weirwood ceremony. That would be the perfect reveal to the reader, Bran might not understand what he was seeing at first. If they don't start laying the groundwork for the reveal of Jon's parents this coming season I'm gonna be disappointed. It's not supposed to be an M. Night Shyamalan twist when it's finally revealed.

Well, it seems that they were put in a tither, because their request to film Cersei's walk of shame was denied at the chosen location. She was to walk nude (and shaven) from a church through town . . .

[MtnLion]

Wait, you actually saw the scene? All I ever saw was that publicity photo I posted.

Yes, complete with Aerys laughing maniacally.

[stateofdissipation]

I can't remember if it was Alia or Ygrain, but one of them made the argument that Rhaegar actually rejected Cersei upon meeting her because he could tell that she wasn't on the level (sanity wise).

Rejecting Tywin's daughter and then marrying a Dornish lady never made much sense in my head, politically speaking, so I think Rhaegar had a say and didn't want to go near Cersei.

I agree it would be easy to use Kingsgrave or Skyreach, but can Starfall is loyal beyond question and already has an "in" with Arthur Dayne.

I'm still searching for the exact quote, but I'm pretty sure it says "at a place Rhaegar had named the Tower of Joy"

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory’s father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.--aGoT page 412

[UnmaskedLurker]

UL,

there is no textual evidence that Arthur/Oswell were assigned to Rhaegar by Aerys. That may be the case, but it's as of yet not confirmed. All we know is that they accompanied him.

Arthur may have had a good relationship with his family, but we don't really know that now, do we? Even if he had, having good relations with his family doesn't mean that Lord Dayne would have been particularly eager to help Rhaegar - especially not when the Prince of Dorne wasn't happy with what he was doing. That Doran was pissed somewhat is confirmed by the App.

What Elia know or thought about the whole Lyanna thing doesn't figure into that. Rhaegar publicly humiliated House Martell when he run away with Lyanna. Elia's personal feelings matter about as much in this thing as Lyanna's personal feelings prevented Brandon's, Robert's, and Ned's actions.

And you really think Prince Rhaegar Targaryen knew the location of/wanted to get to some remote watchtower near the Prince's Pass as his end destination? That sounds really strange to me, I must say...

You make some good points. But given that Whent and Dayne were KG, I don't see how they could have justified staying with Rhaegar away from KL so long unless Aerys assigned them to Rhaegar. I don't see how they could have accompanied him for so long otherwise. We obviously don't know what relationship Arthur had with his family. The best speculation (as admittedly, only speculation) is that Ashara was helping them. If that is the case, she might have had servants loyal to her at Starfall that would not tell anything to her brother, the Lord. But I admit, this is only speculation and there very well could be a different explanation for the source of supplies and servants. The only clue I think we might have is the mention of Wylla who we know is from Starfall.

I agree that Elia's views would not affect the views of most of House Martell. I am specifically thinking of the views of Ashara, who might know what Elia knows and might care and might be part of why Ashara is willing to help Rhaegar.

As far as Rhaegar's ultimate destination, I don't know what else could be the case. He goes to ToJ. He stays at ToJ for about a year. ToJ ends up, for the most part, being a good hiding place (although maybe not perfect, depending on how Hightower and Ned learned of the location--whether they were told by someone Rhaegar knew had knowledge of the location or found it some other way). If he had a different destination, why stay at ToJ for so long? I am not sure I see what possible alternative you are suggesting might have been Rhaegar's plans. We know he took off with Lyanna and then ended up at ToJ and stayed there for almost a year (at least I think we have a pretty good idea they stayed there about that long). So what else could there plan have been--other than what they actually did, which was to hide out at ToJ, presumably until the baby was born and then return to KL? What is your alternative theory?

[Harlaw's Book the Sequel]

You both could be correct, of course. I just wanted to point out that we have a couple of characters who think about Rhaegar wanting sons. And sure, it could be set up as an ironic twist, I suppose. Everybody assumes the crown prince wanted multiple sons but, in actuality, he was hoping for a second daughter. And lastly, it might just be what I initially thought it was: GRRM hinting at R+L=J by having characters think about Rhaegar's sons, plural. It especially reads—or could be read—that way in Cersei's thoughts: Rhaegar would be our king today and I would be his queen, the mother of his sons. I would be . . . the mother of his sons. Kind of like GRRM planting the idea of two sons in the reader's subconscious.

All that said, considering some of the discussion in these threads lately, I thought it was worth mentioning.

I agree -bringing up the idea that Rhaegar wanted sons feels like a hint to the reader. Apologies if my posts sounded too abrasive, I didn't mean for them to read like that.

I also agree this. Much of what the Lannisters think and say of Cersei reflect Lannister pride and arrogance and" Cersei-centric."

If you asked the Starks about Lyanna, I'm sure they would say something about the beauty of the night extinguishing the flames, or the moon blotting out the sun.

Even Robert still goes on about her beauty, and I'm pretty sure Rhaegar would have run off with Patchface if he was married to Cersei, which is why I suspect he had as much to do with saying no to the match as Aerys.

What I do think was known was his need for heirs, and Elias health would have been a subject of speculation.

I too support the idea that Rhaegar rejected Cersei. In hindsight I think Jon's observations of Cersei and Robert from AGOT, Jon I really show that he is his parents' child. I'm sure his seeing through Cersei's smile and being unimpressed by Robert would have made Rhaegar and Lyanna very proud.

[RumHam]

Yes, complete with Aerys laughing maniacally.

I'm jealous. Do you think they cut it because it didn't fit or was like, bad? Was Aerys too over the top?

[J. Stargaryen]

I agree -bringing up the idea that Rhaegar wanted sons feels like a hint to the reader. Apologies if my posts sounded too abrasive, I didn't mean for them to read like that.

I didn't get that from your posts. I thought you made fair points. :cheers:

[MtnLion]

The fact that the Tower of Joy was located in the Red Mountains of Dorne does not (necessarily) mean that it was located in Dorne. The border between Dorne and the Dornish Marches (which aren't part of Dorne, but belong to the Stormlands and the Reach, respectively) is somewhere in those mountains, and we have no idea where exactly it goes.

Are you really arguing that the tower was not located in Dorne? According to that line, strictly speaking the red mountains that are located in Dorne have the tower within their boundaries, therefore the tower is indeed within Dorne. I will go on, we have a history for why the tower was there, and why it would be abandoned now. Before Dorne joined the seven kingdoms, they would watch for the approach of the dragons, and melt away when they appeared. This would be one such place to watch for the dragon's approach.

[Lord Varys]

Do we know that Rhaegar was at the Tower all the time, or only some weeks/months in the end? As far as I know we don't have any insight information of Rhaegar/Lyanna while they went missing. We don't know how they traveled, which route they took, where they stayed on the way, etc.

I'd imagine that Oswell/Arthur were personally loyal to Rhaegar. Oswell was involved in whatever conspiracy Rhaegar was setting up with Lord Whent (i.e. treason), and Arthur is supposed to be Rhaegar's best friend. They accompanied and followed him because they wanted to, I assume. Aerys had nothing to do with that.

I'm not saying that the Tower was not in Dorne. I'm just saying we don't know if the Tower was in Dorne. We cannot deduce from the fact that the Tower was located near the Prince's Pass that it was in Dorne, just as we cannot deduce that the Mountains of Dorne are completely on Dornish soil just because they are named 'the Mountains of Dorne'. The border is somewhere in this region, and I don't know where it goes exactly. The Tower of Joy could be on Dornish soil, or in the Reach or the Stormlands. We don't really know that.