Red Tiger Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Would the fan base have hated the Freys as much if they just fell on the Starks with their levies whilst they were strung out on the march? Nah, cause at least the Starks would have a chance to fight. The Freys would still be hated but not as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Would the fan base have hated the Freys as much if they just fell on the Starks with their levies whilst they were strung out on the march?I certainly wouldn't have found it so contemptible. But maybr thats just me.Unless they had pulled the wedding card in this scenario too: "sure, come to our castle, see the wedding. But we'll kill you all en route." Then I would still object, yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Would the fan base have hated the Freys as much if they just fell on the Starks with their levies whilst they were strung out on the march?Nope. But I don't even care about the Freys breaking guest right. What pisses me off is that they massacred thousands of people, lured them under false pretenses and a beliefs that all was forgiven than they slaughtered them and than vandalized their bodies. So many things is wrong with that. The way they did Robb's body is wrong, and I don't get people defending this atrocious act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Please, those were hidious crimes, but the Freys killed thousands of people with no ground whatsoever. Even worse, they broke guestright. Now, guestright isn't sacred for shit and giggles. It actually has a really important socio-political function. As long as a man could rely on the protection of guest right, negotiations and diplomatic missions could be undertaken without having to fear for once live. Now that the Freys broke it, all bets are off. Good luck in getting two opposing sides to talk about a peace treaty if their Lord can get beheaded at every moment. Thousands of soldiers with blood on their hands. These weren't innocent people here. The Sack of Kings Landing killined innocent people. And the Freys had grounds for killing Northmen and RIvermen. Robb Stark broke his word. He used them. Furthermore, the Tyrells broke guest rights and people say that they should get away with it. I'm not 'losing perspective'. The Red Wedding was the massacre, of THOUSANDS of people. You're the one who has "lost" perspective if you think the rape and torture of a few people is worse than the slaughter of thousands of unsuspecting people at a wedding feast. Thousands of soldiers with blood on their hands. People who had pillaged. People who stole food from innocents who needed it. People who have killed and raped and were going to continue to fight against all reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tiger Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Thousands of soldiers with blood on their hands. These weren't innocent people here. The Sack of Kings Landing killined innocent people. And the Freys had grounds for killing Northmen and RIvermen. Robb Stark broke his word. He used them. Furthermore, the Tyrells broke guest rights and people say that they should get away with it. GIve me a break. House Frey is obligated to help House Tully, yet they only did so after Robb promised he'd marry one of the Freys. The first person to break an oath here was Walder Frey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Snow Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 It's definitely not okay to eat people, obvious enough, so Wyman Manderly is gross for cannibalism. Human beings are filthy, vile creatures, and the time period we're seeing in this series is a time when people consumed a lot of rancidness. Then there's the moral aspect, too, right? Extra twisted to feed Frey pies to unsuspecting guests. HOWEVER... I, like so many others, were really torn up about the Red Wedding, and I'll admit that Manderly's cannibalistic vengeance got me fist pumping. Very valid topic - it forces you to come to grips with what we're all willing to let slide in the interest of our personal biases. Kudos, OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Thousands of soldiers with blood on their hands. These weren't innocent people here. The Sack of Kings Landing killined innocent people. And the Freys had grounds for killing Northmen and RIvermen. Robb Stark broke his word. He used them. Furthermore, the Tyrells broke guest rights and people say that they should get away with it. Thousands of soldiers with blood on their hands. People who had pillaged. People who stole food from innocents who needed it. People who have killed and raped and were going to continue to fight against all reason. Was only a matter of time before the RW apologists turned up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 GIve me a break. House Frey is obligated to help House Tully, yet they only did so after Robb promised he'd marry one of the Freys. The first person to break an oath here was Walder Frey. The Frey's are also obligated to support the King. Furthermore, a Tully should have married into House Frey a lot sooner. Look at the Tyrells and how many times they've married into House Redwyne and House Hightower. They marry into their most powerful bannermen to bind them in loyalty. Was only a matter of time before the RW apologists turned up. The Red Wedding was taking things to far. It would have been justified for them to bar them from using their bridge and riding out against the Stark and Tully men. They had a legitimate grudge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 I'm not 'losing perspective'. The Red Wedding was the massacre, of THOUSANDS of people. You're the one who has "lost" perspective if you think the rape and torture of a few people is worse than the slaughter of thousands of unsuspecting people at a wedding feast. Thousands of soldiers with blood on their hands. People who had pillaged. People who stole food from innocents who needed it. People who have killed and raped and were going to continue to fight against all reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tiger Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 The Frey's are also obligated to support the King. Furthermore, a Tully should have married into House Frey a lot sooner. Look at the Tyrells and how many times they've married into House Redwyne and House Hightower. They marry into their most powerful bannermen to bind them in loyalty. A lord's first loyalty and obligation is to his overlord, NOT his king. Tully's are not obligated to marry into a family that treats women like brood mares and has them unapologetically die in childbirth, time after time. The Freys had no right to murder people they gave guest right to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 @ Chilly Polly It just occurred to me I might have misunderstood something (If so, apologies). Are you saying that you believe, despite Manderly's compliance with the version of the Rat Cook Old Nan tells, that this might not be the truth of how the gods see it, and that, therefore, he'll be "cursed by the gods" anyway? Are you talking about a literally god-ordained punishment for non-compliance with their ethical system, or something closer to karmic retribution, whereby his actions-- in that they're wrong and motivated by vengeance-- will come back on him? If it's the latter, then I actually agree with you, in that vengeance never leads anywhere good in this story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Thousands of soldiers with blood on their hands. These weren't innocent people here. The Sack of Kings Landing killined innocent people. And the Freys had grounds for killing Northmen and RIvermen. Robb Stark broke his word. He used them. Furthermore, the Tyrells broke guest rights and people say that they should get away with it Yeah, because all those thousands of soldiers were rapists and murderers. You didn't mention the sack of KL (which didn't have the same threatening socio-political consequences btw). Freys had no ground at all, as was mentioned by Red Tiger before. And the Tyrell argument is a strawman if ever I saw one. I did not mention them at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 A lord's first loyalty and obligation is to his overlord, NOT his king. Tully's are not obligated to marry into a family that treats women like brood mares and has them unapologetically die in childbirth, time after time. The Freys had no right to murder people they gave guest right to. Where did you get that from? Do you have a quote? Did GRRM say it? If the Tullys want loyalty from the Frey's they should treat them with respect. You can't disrespect your most powerful bannermen for a century and then expect loyalty. I agree that that was wrong. Just like it was wrong for the Tyrells to murder Joffrey when he really gave them no reason too. But they did have a legitimate grudge against the Starks and they weren't obligated to rebel against their King for the Tullys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Yeah, because all those thousands of soldiers were rapists and murderers. You didn't mention the sack of KL (which didn't have the same threatening socio-political consequences btw). Freys had no ground at all, as was mentioned by Red Tiger before. And the Tyrell argument is a strawman if ever I saw one. I did not mention them at all. A decent number of them were. At the very least, they were guilty of killing a lot of smallfolk. You're talking about guest rights, so the Tyrells have to come into it. Do you think that the Tyrells should be punished. They did the same thing as the Freys. In fact, in some ways they were worse since Joffrey didn't do anything to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 The Frey's are also obligated to support the King. Furthermore, a Tully should have married into House Frey a lot sooner. Look at the Tyrells and how many times they've married into House Redwyne and House Hightower. They marry into their most powerful bannermen to bind them in loyalty. The Red Wedding was taking things to far. It would have been justified for them to bar them from using their bridge and riding out against the Stark and Tully men. They had a legitimate grudge. A Tully didn't marry a Frey, probably because Walder Frey was a fucking moron. He complained about being ignored and yet did nothing to help the Tulliy's when they needed him. He had all his forces at the Twins in GoT despite the Riverlands being raped and pillaged. When Hoster called his banners in RR, Walder Frey didn't budge. If Walder Frey wants respect then he should fucking earn it, not just father children. It would have been justified to withdraw support, no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNinjaDC Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Since when our Frey's counted as people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonBranRickon Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 GRRM has many such stories that are replete these kind of moral questons. On the surface seem to be straight forward but tend to ask the what if. Example - Jaime the Kingslayer but he saved several thousand innocent people and his own family members. Mel - burning people alive for Rhollor who in her eyes will save the world from darkness. Jaime pushing Bran from the window- One might say he is saving his own hyde but what about Cersei and his kids. Varys- Kills Kevan Lannister for the Realm O Redwynne (Kingslayer) kills Joffery for the good of her family. Not so bad BAD - was the act selfish, self serving and completely without warrrant: the easiest example is the RW and Jaime throwing Bran from the window is on the fence and Mels burning people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 A decent number of them were. At the very least, they were guilty of killing a lot of smallfolk. You're talking about guest rights, so the Tyrells have to come into it. Do you think that the Tyrells should be punished. They did the same thing as the Freys. In fact, in some ways they were worse since Joffrey didn't do anything to them. So, just because some percentage of Robb's forces were guilty of crimes, it's okay to kill them all and let the Old Gods sort it out? And the Tyrells crimes wasn't of the same magnitude. They slew one guy, while the Freys killed thousands (as you know, that's an awful big number). Furthermore, said guy was a psychopath, he was actually guilty of some bad shit. The Tyrells are scumbags, but not on the Frey level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 A Tully didn't marry a Frey, probably because Walder Frey was a fucking moron. He complained about being ignored and yet did nothing to help the Tulliy's when they needed him. He had all his forces at the Twins in GoT despite the Riverlands being raped and pillaged. When Hoster called his banners in RR, Walder Frey didn't budge. If Walder Frey wants respect then he should fucking earn it, not just father children. It would have been justified to withdraw support, no more. Walder Frey is about 92 years old. Almost a century. His oldest son was in his late 60's. He turned 90 before the War of the Five Kings and he was 75 during Roberts Rebellion. They had plenty of time to marry into the Freys. You can't expect loyalty from your bannermen if you disrespect them for a century. It would have been justified to ride out and kill them. Robb used his bridge, used his men, Walders first born son died fighting for him and then he broke his word. They had a very legit grudge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCat Rivers Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Since when our Frey's counted as people? This should not be ever said for anyone, not even for fun. Or maybe, especially for fun... Please edit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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