Heresy 133 The Weirwoods

[butterbumps!]

It is, but it might be worth considering the effect of grafting here. If we start off with the proposition that the trees already had eyes when the First Men tooled up and that the troubles began when men started cutting them down, its reasonable to suppose that those faces resembled those of the Singers. We know however that men took to worshipping the Old Gods and that men were sacrificed willingly or otherwise to the trees; hence the theory that the faces reflect those sacrificed.

Now if we switch for a moment to that humbugging speech by Leaf about how all things must die and Bran's silent response that men would fight; might that explain why we think that the Old Gods are fighting back, because enough of man has been grafted into them?

Yeah there is definitely some chicken or egg thought going on.I asked this question myself about the faces not having COTF features and i buy BC'c explanation of the morphing.So it may have been like that in the Dawn age where the faces had their features,but after man entered the system we get the gist.It does kinda have a "Little shop of horrors feeling" another reason why i think the trees aren't passive.They assimilate people and look like what they assimilate because hey what's that saying..

"You are what you eat".

As you say that BC this occured to me,the COTF were more or less passifists they fought the First Men because they had to,but honestly they don't know the art of warfare. Their interaction on this level with the FM may have been purely defensive and not offensive.They don't know how to be violent,its probably not in their nature to think like that. So what better way but to have the GS be human.

I buy these ideas, and want to add that I really like the term "grafting" to describe the process occurring.

So, if I'm not mistaken, it may be that the first weirwoods-- prior to the FM arrival and subsequent grafting-- would have looked different from their current state? These trees may have truly been there before man, but their essence has changed over time in response to their continued grafted union? That does make me more curious about the Shade of the Evening trees mentioned earlier.

I'm sorry if I missed this in the event it was mentioned here (I did read the responses thoroughly, but just in case I missed something). The term "weir" means a dam within a stream. It's been my suspicion that "magic" is simply a natural flow of energy that exists in their world the way electricity runs in ours, like a current or a stream. In a sense, a "weirwood" is sort of like the magical equivalent of an electrical transformer; it helps one channel the flow of a stream of energy.

But "weir" also evokes "wer," as in "man-tree." It seems that blood sacrifice is generally the requirement for man's ability to tap into a magical stream, and weirwoods seem to be early man's "transformer" or something. Not the "on switch" but something that completes the circuit. (I should note that I'm very undecided about whether the CotF have to pay for their abilities via blood the way men do, which is part of why I find the "weir"/ "wer" rhyme potentially significant). All of which is to say that I wonder if weirwood is actually a very man-centric tree, and perhaps not a specific object of devotion to the CotF originally, though now part of their godhead too?

[LynnS]

Oops - sorry, LynnS... that's another excerpt I definitely should have included in my OP essay! As butterbumps! says, it comes from a story related to Davos by Ser Bartimus, the chief gaoler at the Wolf's Den in White Harbor, and it is actually the first time that Martin explicitly reveals the practice of blood sacrifice in connection with weirwoods among the northmen. Looks like I included the last piece of the dialogue, but not the story that preceded it. Here's a fuller version of that excerpt:

When old King Edrick Stark had grown too feeble to defend his realm, the Wolf’s Den was captured by slavers from the Stepstones. They would brand their captives with hot irons and break them to the whip before shipping them off across the sea, and these same black stone walls bore witness. ... "Then a long cruel winter fell," said Ser Bartimus. "The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard's great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf’s Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he'd found chained up in the dungeons. It’s said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don't know winter, and winter don't know them."

Davos could not argue with the truth of that. From what he had seen at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, he did not care to know winter either. "What gods do you keep?" he asked the one-legged knight.

"The old ones." When Ser Bartimus grinned, he looked just like a skull. "Me and mine were here before the Manderlys. Like as not, my own forebears strung those entrails through the tree."

"I never knew that northmen made blood sacrifice to their heart trees."

"There's much and more you southrons do not know about the north" Ser Bartimus replied.

(5.29, DAVOS)

My apologies for misunderstanding the context.

[Black Crow]

When old King Edrick Stark had grown too feeble to defend his realm, the Wolf’s Den was captured by slavers from the Stepstones. They would brand their captives with hot irons and break them to the whip before shipping them off across the sea, and these same black stone walls bore witness. ... "Then a long cruel winter fell," said Ser Bartimus. "The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard's great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf’s Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he'd found chained up in the dungeons. It’s said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don't know winter, and winter don't know them."

Davos could not argue with the truth of that. From what he had seen at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, he did not care to know winter either. "What gods do you keep?" he asked the one-legged knight.

"The old ones." When Ser Bartimus grinned, he looked just like a skull. "Me and mine were here before the Manderlys. Like as not, my own forebears strung those entrails through the tree."

"I never knew that northmen made blood sacrifice to their heart trees."

"There's much and more you southrons do not know about the north" Ser Bartimus replied.

(5.29, DAVOS)

Although the passage is pretty self explanatory its worth emphasising that the "slaves" freed by Brandon Ice Eyes were local people who knew or at least reckoned that a blood sacrifice in this form was acceptable to the Old Gods.

[King of Winters]

Although the passage is pretty self explanatory its worth emphasising that the "slaves" freed by Brandon Ice Eyes were local people who knew or at least reckoned that a blood sacrifice in this form was acceptable to the Old Gods.

It shows how the sacrifices didn't always have to be in front of the weirwood's face, and blood didn't have to be spilled into the mouth.

[Black Crow]

And once again its worth recalling this extract from the forthcoming World book:

...consider Maester Yorrick's Wed to the Sea, Being an Account of the History of White Harbor from the Earliest Days, which recounts the practice of blood sacrifice to the old gods. Such sacrifices persisted as recently as five centuries ago, according to accounts from Maester Yorrick's predecessors at White Harbor.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I have a question. What is the paste that Bran eats made from? As noted in my last post, the trees above the cave have no description. How many, the size etc.

All the talk of the parallels in Essos with the weirwoods brings out some thoughts on Bran's journey north. I know some parallels are just that yet sometimes there is more to it. Beginning at the Black Gate and it's similarity to the opening mouth at the hotU. Yes they are both magical portals of a kind. Dany passes through the open mouth to begin a journey to the Undying which have lived out their lives long after they should be dead.

Bran also begins his journey north of the wall by passing through the mouth of the gate. Once Bran arrives he meets BR who has has been kept alive longer than he should.

Is this cave actually similar to the Undying's room? The colors have changed to Bran's perception as did the colors under the blue heart to Dany. Will the trees actually consume Bran's life force while offering rewards to him? Might Bran destroy the cave and the weirwoods in a similar way to Dany's story? Maybe a little Ice or Earth instead of Fire?

And one last question

Got distracted and forgot what I wanted to say. Will post later if I remember.

Besides all this, I never knew of the 'Cave of Skulls' reference to Doctor Who's first story plot until today.

[TheButcherCrow]

Could it be as simple as the trees needing faces/eyes to be able to have greenseers see out from within them ? If a greenseer take the skin of a bird, obv they can see. Same for a toad or a wolf or a deer but if a greenseer connects to a tree with no eyes how can they see out of it ?

I agree completely with the idea that the introduction of men into the weirnet caused a change. The will of man is indomitable and if the link between skinchanger and familiar has a "merging" effect (with each party gaining some of the others attributes) why shouldn't the link between greenseer and tree do the same ?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I understand your position on eyes to see TheButcherCrow. When the greenseers first used the trees for these purposes it may have been necessary for the greenseer to have eyes. Although, if a greenseer can see beyond the trees, where is the need for weirwood eyes?

This may be where the crows and ravens come into play. Or this may be where the dead of the past come in. How does one see beyond the trees?

A little off topic - the white walkers seem to know the presence of others from a distance. It is similar, in my opinion, to greenseers seeing beyond the trees.

[Toccs]

And once again its worth recalling this extract from the forthcoming World book:

...consider Maester Yorrick's Wed to the Sea, Being an Account of the History of White Harbor from the Earliest Days, which recounts the practice of blood sacrifice to the old gods. Such sacrifices persisted as recently as five centuries ago, according to accounts from Maester Yorrick's predecessors at White Harbor.

I've always kinda assumed that Maester Yorrick's predecessors five centuries ago were contemporary with the Brandon Ice Eyes incident.

[Toccs]

It is, but it might be worth considering the effect of grafting here. If we start off with the proposition that the trees already had eyes when the First Men tooled up and that the troubles began when men started cutting them down, its reasonable to suppose that those faces resembled those of the Singers. We know however that men took to worshipping the Old Gods and that men were sacrificed willingly or otherwise to the trees; hence the theory that the faces reflect those sacrificed.

When the First Men and the Children signhed the pact on the island they sealed it by carving a face on every weirwood on the island. Makes you wonder just what that pact was sighned in doesn't it.

[Black Crow]

It does indeed, and as I observed above it may be significant that Maester Luwin said the trees on the island were given faces, which suggests that they didn't have them before - and that "given" may not be the same as carved.

[Black Crow]

WEIRWOOD DISTRIBUTION (Locations and Settings) - Way back in the second chapter of the first book, Catelyn Stark introduces us, very briefly, to weirwoods and their history. But almost five thousand pages later, it's not clear that her introduction was accurate. From Catelyn's POV, we learn that "in the south the last weirwoods had been cut down or burned out a thousand years ago, except on the Isle of Faces where the green men kept their silent watch." She then contrasts the south with the North, where "every castle" has its godswood, its heart tree, and its carved face. Yet as our story moves on, we discover weirwoods in many castles and keeps south of the Neck, including: Riverrun, Raventree Hall, Casterly Rock, Harrenhal, Storm's End, and even Oldtown. So, what gives? Did Martin change the story along the way? Have all these trees been planted in the last thousand years? How do we reconcile this seeming inconsistency?

It occurs to me that there may not necessarily be an inconsistency here if it is fashionable to have a heart tree - but those in the south don't have faces. Or do they?

[Mithras]

“Where are the rest of you?” Bran asked Leaf, once.

“Gone down into the earth,” she answered. “Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us.”

She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well. It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

The hateful heart tree of Harrenhal should be related to a human greenseer.

[butterbumps!]

Aside from Shade of the Evening, have there been other hallucinogens like the paste?

I tend to see the red candles in the HotBaW as being very similar, though they're not "consumed" directly. The flurry of tastes Dany and Bran experience-- familiar, loved, comforting tastes--is pretty much exactly what Arya experiences through smell. Their scent is entirely determined by the sensor (the KM explains that they are meant to comfort those who seek the Gift; one smells what one wants to smell).

Is it safe to assume the red candles are in the same category? (and the redness of them is curious in light of weirwood coloring). Have we heard of any other "consumable" that does this?

[LynnS]

It does indeed, and as I observed above it may be significant that Maester Luwin said the trees on the island were given faces, which suggests that they didn't have them before - and that "given" may not be the same as carved.

Which takes me back to the idea that Trios represents three heads of the ice dragon; three aspects of one god wih it's three mouths, devouring the dwarf sacrifice. The Black Gate seems to be a face hung on a wall; or the wall is given a face. This seems something like the magic employed by the HoB&W.

In Dany's vision in the HotU; we see these aspects connected. She enters a door that she percieves to open like a mouth; something that looks like Pyat Pree attempts to lure her through another door (and then turns into giant worms/roots); she goes through the doors of the HoB&W where she encounters a splendor of wizards/undying. The The House of he Undying, the House of B&W, The Wall are places that are connected. Or two hinges of the world and one door entering the same vision/dream landscape. Connected by the same magic?

We haven't heard the Kindly Old Man's origin story yet. So it would seem that we have been given an entry point, an exit point and something in the middle to equate to the Sailor's Wife explanation of the three heads. One devours the dead, one returns the dead and she doesn't know what the middle head does.

The similarity between the appearance of the greenseer and the KoM another Faceless Man disguise? If Bran/Arya/Jon (or Sansa) represent the three heads in some way; what are the three aspects of the god. The kindly old man, the greenseer and ....? What does Jon represent? Or Sansa?

Mirri Maaz Duur awakens the old and ancient powers. The burning man and the great wolf. Mel looks for the great other, the ancient one. Dany sees the ancient man and woman seated at the table in front of the dying and corrupted heart in the HotU. Or does she see the Greenseer/KoM and the great (she) wolf at the table?

I don't think that it's only Jon who has to resolve the ice side of things; but Jon, Bran and Arya with Bran doing the teaching since he knows what to do. It seems that Bran's connection to Sansa has been severed early on.

It's isn't just the Wall that that has to come down to restore balance; but the HoB&W as well. One of the hinges of the world has already been destroyed when Dany burned down the HotU.

The fire dragon, the ice dragon and the drowned god.

[butterbumps!]

Which takes me back to the idea that Trios represents three heads of the ice dragon; three aspects of one god wih it's three mouths, devouring the dwarf sacrifice. The Black Gate seems to be a face hung on a wall; or the wall is given a face. This seems something like the magic employed by the HoB&W.

In Dany's vision in the HotU; we see these aspects connected. She enters a door that she percieves to open like a mouth; something that looks like Pyat Pree attempts to lure her through another door (and then turns into giant worms/roots); she goes through the doors of the HoB&W where she encounters a splendor of wizards/undying. The The House of he Undying, the House of B&W, The Wall are places that are connected. Or two hinges of the world and one door entering the same vision/dream landscape. Connected by the same magic?

We haven't heard the Kindly Old Man's origin story yet. So it would seem that we have been given an entry point, an exit point and something in the middle to equate to the Sailor's Wife explanation of the three heads. One devours the dead, one returns the dead and she doesn't know what the middle head does.

The similarity between the appearance of the greenseer and the KoM another Faceless Man disguise? If Bran/Arya/Jon (or Sansa) represent the three heads in some way; what are the three aspects of the god. The kindly old man, the greenseer and ....? What does Jon represent? Or Sansa?

Mirri Maaz Duur awakens the old and ancient powers. The burning man and the great wolf. Mel looks for the great other, the ancient one. Dany sees the ancient man and woman seated at the table in front of the dying and corrupted heart in the HotU. Or does she see the Greenseer/KoM and the great (she) wolf at the table?

I don't think that it's only Jon who has to resolve the ice side of things; but Jon, Bran and Arya with Bran doing the teaching since he knows what to do. It seems that Bran's connection to Sansa has been severed early on.

It's isn't just the Wall that that has to come down to restore balance; but the HoB&W as well. One of the hinges of the world has already been destroyed when Dany burned down the HotU.

The fire dragon, the ice dragon and the drowned god.

3-headed Trios is the "face" of death for a particular religion. I'm not sure that the Faceless subscribe to the particular character of this "face" as some over-arching principle. Death has many "faces," and I'm not sure why they'd subscribe to this one over, say, the Black Goat, Weeping Woman, Lion of Night, the Stranger, the Hooded Wayfarer, etc etc. Especially in light of how that third head is about rebirth, and to them, death is the end. I think the idea of resurrection would be appalling to them. So I'm not sure that the KM would advocate the 3 passages through death like you're suggesting.

I'm also going to put out there that the Faceless are the enforcers of balance. They're the ones who see death as a fundamental balance-proliferator. Death is what keeps everything in check. All men must die. They are against the immortality-seeking shenanigans we see with the Undying, Red, probably the Others, and whoever else we see who tries to cheat death.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Ah, now I remember. Could the cave below the weirwood grove be the Heart of Winter?

[Mithras]

The head that devours the dying should be the god of death and I think it is related to fire. There are many examples of fire devouring things.

[butterbumps!]

The head that devours the dying should be the god of death and I think it is related to fire. There are many examples of fire devouring things.

Yes, more specifically it's that first head that would be one of the MFG's faces.

But why is it necessarily related to fire? Do you mean by the Tyroshi who worship Trios, the Faceless, or in some objective sense?

[LynnS]

3-headed Trios is the "face" of death for a particular religion. I'm not sure that the Faceless subscribe to the particular character of this "face" as some over-arching principle. Death has many "faces," and I'm not sure why they'd subscribe to this one over, say, the Black Goat, Weeping Woman, Lion of Night, the Stranger, the Hooded Wayfarer, etc etc. Especially in light of how that third head is about rebirth, and to them, death is the end. I think the idea of resurrection would be appalling to them. So I'm not sure that the KM would advocate the 3 passages through death like you're suggesting.

I'm also going to put out there that the Faceless are the enforcers of balance. They're the ones who see death as a fundamental balance-proliferator. Death is what keeps everything in check. All men must die. They are against the immortality-seeking shenanigans we see with the Undying, Red, probably the Others, and whoever else we see who tries to cheat death.

That's interesting. Maintaining the balance and the status quo? All men must die but not the gods? Their magic seems connected to the Black Gate and as BC is suggesting the god's eye. I still think that to restore balance all the magic has to be unbound whether that is on the fire side, ice side or the FM side. The hinges, the doors and the wall have to be removed although this would unleash all the shades and powers that the FM attempt to keep chained up or in balance.

You could be right that Trios is just a local god. I've come to think that anything anomolous that turns up in Tyrion's narrative needs a second look. The statue is situated next to the fountain of the drunken god (the drowned god? -drowning one's sorrows, the sorrowful men?). This makes me think of wellsprings of magic and that bottomless wells seem to be co-located with important wierwoods (Winterfell/Black Gate).