Heresy 133 The Weirwoods

[Melifeather]

I've been fussing over the gate connection and Trios the three headed god for a while.

A Dance with Dragons

Penny recalls to Tyrion Lannister that an elderly dwarf was cut into three parts and pushed inside the mouths of Trios at the temple in Tyrosh.^[2]

The Sailor's Wife once told Arya Stark that the first head of Trio devours the dying and the reborn emerge from the third, but she did not recall the purpose of the middle head.^[1]

When Dany enters the House of the Undying, we don't get much of a description of the door itself; only that it's round and she has the perception that it opens like a mouth. She then encounters doors like the HoB&W revealing a splendor of wizards.

Piat's doppleganger attempts to lure Dany through a false door and when she refused; Pyat transorms in writhing worms not unlike the roots of the weirwood described by Bran.

Arya enters the HoB&W and the room with the ghost skins is revealed to her. The tree at Moat Cailin with it's sheets of ghost moss suggestive of the ghost skins in the HoB&W. Connecting the House of Black and White, with the Black Gate; the Wall and beyond.

So these places and their magic are all connected through the House of the Undying which Dany has now destroyed; perhaps lopping off one head of the three headed god. It is a place of power and one of the crossroads of the (under)world.

What has been confusing about it is that there are dualities like the kindly old man and the greenseer or the the Black Gate and the door to the House of Undying. When they are part of a triplicity with a piece missing and well disguised.

I think one example of this kind of trio with a missing piece are the doors themselves. The Black Gate and the HotU are doors like mouths that open to swallow the person passing. The missing piece is Jon himself when Othor attempts to force his hand into Jon's mouth and down his throat. The wildlings can pass through the Gate at Castle Black with Jon's permission. Can the dead and the draugr pass through the Black Gate with Jon's permission?

The second pairing of the Greenseer and the Arya's Kindly Old Man seems obvious with their skull- like faces and the root/worm crawling out of one eye. But is there a third?

All these places are dead places. While Ygritte worries about opening the barrows and shades that are released; I wonder what Dany has released when she destroyed the HotU; recalling Pyat's warning that Dany could become trapped in the place.

I think we are given a clue when blind Sybassion Eye-eater claims that he can see again. Was he the undying shade sucking on Dany's eye? Ick!

Clash of Kings Chapter 63

The wife of Mathos Mallarawan, who once mocked a warlock's drab moth eaten robe, has gone mad and will wear no clothes at all.

Which brings me to Cersei and Qyburn who she describes as grand-fatherly type although his clothes are drab and repellent. It isn't long after she makes this observation that Qyburn appears wearing strange and splendid robes. And we know what happened to Cersei after that.

I'm sorry to go off on a tangent or if this doesn't make any sense. It's a matter of plugging in the holes which is possible according to the wisdom of Rajesh Koothrapalli:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxHGA0OB7uY

I think there's a lot of interesting connections in here, even if it is random. I want to learn more about the Eye-eater guy, where is that passage??? Certainly if a third head is missing there would be repercussions. Can you tie your ends together and put a clearer theory together? I'd be interested in investigating it.

Before I forget, I was hoping people had more ideas as to why Bran was seeing through the heart tree at Winterfell rather than the weirwood at the cave of skulls? Do you suppose after entering the Black Gate that they actually traveled in a parallel universe back to Winterfell?

[Black Crow]

Before I forget, I was hoping people had more ideas as to why Bran was seeing through the heart tree at Winterfell rather than the weirwood at the cave of skulls? Do you suppose after entering the Black Gate that they actually traveled in a parallel universe back to Winterfell?

Perhaps the short and not entirely flippant answer is that home is where the heart [tree] is, and that Bran is a son of Winterfell.

[LynnS]

Yes, it's Clash of Kings Chaper 63. The after effects of burning down the HotU are mentioned. I didn't explain myself very well. Perhaps on another thread or when the discussion turns to general topics.

[Melifeather]

Perhaps the short and not entirely flippant answer is that home is where the heart [tree] is, and that Bran is a son of Winterfell.

Or the cave of skulls tree is still inhabited by Bloodraven?

Only one user at a time?

[Black Crow]

Or the cave of skulls tree is still inhabited by Bloodraven?

Only one user at a time?

I'm more inclined to see it as Bran being able to use any weirwood [or weirwood substitute?] but Winterfell is the default setting or homepage

[Frey family reunion]

The suggestion of death by drowning is interesting... it sort of plays along with Patch Face's "under the sea" as an analog for "death."

Didn't think of that connection before, but it definitely makes the fact that Patchface, Queen Selyse, and Shireen are headed towards the NIght Fort much more intriguing.

[Kingmonkey]

Not sure if this has been discussed before and too undeveloped to really count as a theory so much as a thought, but...

The roots at Hollow Hill seem very reminiscent of the Cave of Skulls, as many have observed. Obvious speculation is that Hollow Hill is an old abandoned equivalent. I've wondered if this is actually connected to the dearth of weirwoods in the south. Perhaps the two caves used to be directly linked, major nodes in the weirnet if you like, and the failed Hammer of the Waters that created the marshes at the Neck actually broke the network in some fundamental way by severing a connection between the two weirwood root-caves that was necessary for the proper working of CoTF magic across Westeros?

Perhaps this breaking of the network might even be responsible for the messed up seasons in Westeros? Could the Isle of Faces be an emergency patch to the network? Massive wall of ICE, FIREwall? Are my network parallels going way too far? Yes, yes they are. I think it's an interesting thought though

[LynnS]

Didn't think of that connection before, but it definitely makes the fact that Patchface, Queen Selyse, and Shireen are headed towards the NIght Fort much more intriguing.

I just find the name Patch Face interesting. LOL! What is the Black Gate if it isn't a patch face.

[King Tyrion XX]

Nothing stops chipmunks from stealing tomatoes.

Vote for Odin. He not only keeps the ice giants away he also keeps the chipmunks away.

[redrose]

I'd suggest they've already done that through the greenseer relationship.Any plant will not refuse good food,if it's there.My point is they never asked for it,especially in the form of sacrifices.

The trees merely want the right to exist,like we do.OK,I'll set it out in bold...

Weirwoods do not require or want human sacrifice.

I've got to disagree with this. If left touched we are told that the Weirwoods can live forever. This in my mind makes them magical and as we are shown throughout the books magic requires sacrifice.

[Phillip Frye]

On another note: Theon witnesses Bran's features in the tree briefly because he is present, not because some magical veil has been lifted from Theon's eyes… Had their been a crowd of people standing behind Theon, they would have all seen Bran's face in the tree, but as it happens, it was only Theon...

Whose face will it have when it starts whomping?

[Phillip Frye]

Weirwoods do not require or want human sacrifice.

I want to drink your blood. Blah!

[Phillip Frye]

Please forgive my ignorance, but what are you paraphrasing here? It sounds like something I'd like to know better. Thanx!

I am surprised no one asked about the horse chestnut post, instead. I would tell you all about it, but there's a catch.

I was paraphrasing The Dunwich Horror by H.P. Lovecraft, one of Martin's juvenile influences, specifically the passage sought by Wilbur Whateley and read by Professor Henry Armitage from the copy of the Necronomicon kept at Miskatonic University in Arkham, Massachusetts.

[Melifeather]

Not sure if this has been discussed before and too undeveloped to really count as a theory so much as a thought, but...

The roots at Hollow Hill seem very reminiscent of the Cave of Skulls, as many have observed. Obvious speculation is that Hollow Hill is an old abandoned equivalent. I've wondered if this is actually connected to the dearth of weirwoods in the south. Perhaps the two caves used to be directly linked, major nodes in the weirnet if you like, and the failed Hammer of the Waters that created the marshes at the Neck actually broke the network in some fundamental way by severing a connection between the two weirwood root-caves that was necessary for the proper working of CoTF magic across Westeros?

Perhaps this breaking of the network might even be responsible for the messed up seasons in Westeros? Could the Isle of Faces be an emergency patch to the network? Massive wall of ICE, FIREwall? Are my network parallels going way too far? Yes, yes they are. I think it's an interesting thought though

I don't think it's way "out there". It may be a severed connection that could be viewed as the server for the southern network. Up north we have CenturyLInk/DirecTV, and in the south XFinity/Comcast.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/14/the-comcast-call-from-hell_n_5586476.html

[Hrafntýr]

Well! Maybe they do plant seeds or clippings. Maybe they do grow from roots. I think it is possible that the circles could have been 'called forth.' The singers may have used song to raise saplings in groups. It sounds cheesy but maybe they all held hands and sang a song of fertility.

As to Varamyr's momentary tree experience, I think he was just passing through on his way to the second life. I think he was rejected by the tree, he was a potential greenseer, yet he never made the cut. And yes Varamyr IS a warg.

The weirwood faces being carved or not.... it seems that all the faces are human faces. The one with slitted (Singer-like) eyes is the exception that points to the rest being human. Now either the humans are the reason for the face carving or the one slitted eye tree is the only one still standing from pre-FM Westeros.

The point I was suggesting about the V6 passage was that he passes through the weirwood first en route to his experience of being in everything, but that all those things that he goes into move outward from the "perceptual field" of the weirwood. To me it seemed as if it might be pertinent to the question of whether a weirwood needs to have eyes for a green seer to see from it (some suggested that green seers could see even from trees without eyes, and also that weirwoods without eyes could themselves see), and also might suggest something about BR's comment to Bran that "in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves." I wonder if this means that the weirwoods will no longer be necessary at all, or if the weirwood is the door from which you can enter into things surrounding that weirwood (such a animals etc.), and then moving out from there, sort of leapfrogging from one creature (or set of creatures, as in flock of crows) to another, but all starting from the "doorway" that is the weirwood.

Before I forget, I was hoping people had more ideas as to why Bran was seeing through the heart tree at Winterfell rather than the weirwood at the cave of skulls? Do you suppose after entering the Black Gate that they actually traveled in a parallel universe back to Winterfell?

I agree with BC about WF being where Bran's "heart" resides. It's also significant, perhaps, that BR tells Bran that the weirwood paste will wed him to the trees, plural, so apparently he's bound to any and all of the weirwoods.

Vote for Odin. He not only keeps the ice giants away he also keeps the chipmunks away.

But do I have to hang people from my trees for this to work?

[Melifeather]

I am surprised no one asked about the horse chestnut post, instead. I would tell you all about it, but there's a catch.

I was paraphrasing The Dunwich Horror by H.P. Lovecraft, one of Martin's childhood influences, specifically the passage sought by Wilbur Whateley and read by Professor Henry Armitage from the copy of the Necronomicon kept at Miskatonic University in Arkham, Massachusetts.

Every time I read horse chestnut I think road apples.

I do recall reading the Dunwich Horror in high school (30-some odd years ago) and if I recall it had a Beowulf theme to it, didn't it?

[Phillip Frye]

The roots at Hollow Hill seem very reminiscent of the Cave of Skulls, as many have observed. Obvious speculation is that Hollow Hill is an old abandoned equivalent. I've wondered if this is actually connected to the dearth of weirwoods in the south. Perhaps the two caves used to be directly linked, major nodes in the weirnet if you like, and the failed Hammer of the Waters that created the marshes at the Neck actually broke the network in some fundamental way by severing a connection between the two weirwood root-caves that was necessary for the proper working of CoTF magic across Westeros?

Many heretics reckon that High Heart is an abandoned sidhe hill in the Riverlands that the Children of the Forest used to occupy. It even has a weirwood throne on which any passing undead may rest during their travels. At least, that's what Rick Steves said.

The roots go deep, not reached by the frost, so to speak.

[wolfmaid7]

I've no doubt that they do, but it takes time.

I must admit that i'm not cauht up on the disscussions;they kind of got away from me,but given the characteristic of the COTF and the aspect of nature they mirror they don't strike me as the kind to mechanically plant Weirwoods all over. I don't know if anyone brought up the idea of the Weirwoods being Rhizomes or spores,mostly if the conditions are right.I know we have touched on the idea of blood sacrifice and the effect on the Weirwoods.I noticed that we have seen Weirwoods popping up and just throwing it out it may have something to do with the increased amount of blood being spilled in the land period.If the Weirwoods are linked then this may be a contributing factor.

I did not get the sense of Varamyr being "spit out", but rather he passed through. I agree with the thought that you have to be wed to the trees in order to stay connected.

The weirwoods could be a type of rhizome, like lilies, where they reproduce via roots and the resulting expansion looks like a crown or ring of small connected bulbs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhizome

Lol i just realize the Rhizome idea was brought up and i agree with that morphology, i also agree with the Varamyr assesment i got the sense that he as you put it was just passing through the varied manifestation of creation so to speak.

The faces were carved into these trees… The faces are carved into the weirwoods as well… There is no doubt that blood sacrifice is integral to the function of the Weirwoods, Weirnet, Old Gods, & any of their powers… However, the books are very clear that the faces are carved into the trees… The Weirwood in Winterfell took on the shape of Bran's face while he was looking through it & we will likely see more of this phenomenon, but this is the only instance we see of Weirwoods taking on the characteristics of specific people.

On another note: Theon witnesses Bran's features in the tree briefly because he is present, not because some magical veil has been lifted from Theon's eyes… Had their been a crowd of people standing behind Theon, they would have all seen Bran's face in the tree, but as it happens, it was only Theon...

I have to disagree with some of your assement of the faces being so "static" the malleability precedence has been set by the very example you gave.We the readers are made aware of the fluidity of the change in the face not only in the Theon example but also the Black Gate whose facial description does not evoke the ridgity you speak of.

Now i'm not denying that the faces can't have been carved ,i'm saying malleability of the supernaturally is subtle and plausible in this story.

Sorry, but just give you some constructive criticism: No, It does not make sense...

There is definitely a parallel between the Kindly Old Man & Bloodraven. There is definitely a parallel between the Doors @ the HOB&W & the Black Gate… These are pairs (2)… A Trio (3) that is missing one aspect is a pair (2)...

I think you have been spending too much time with Wolfmaid7 & it is starting to show…

Coming from the beautiful mind that gave us Jon in Ghost and somehow Sixskins is going to be in on this, making it some type of skinchanging ménage à trois.Oh wait i forgot Hodor,Ned and Khal Drogo are going to somehow find a way to the party......And seeing as we are talking about Weirwoods,how could i forget them pulling up roots and going all ganster.

Excuse me if i find you hilarious...utterly hilarious thank you for this.Havent held my side like this since watching "The Feast 1,2 and 3.

I don't mind criticism Addicted and i don't take any offense to what you said. Your rejected my post twice; so what else is there to say?

And I haven't been spending time with anyone. My dad died in March and I've been recovering since then.

LynnS don't take it to heart,you know that proverb about gods suffering babies and fools.

I'd suggest they've already done that through the greenseer relationship.Any plant will not refuse good food,if it's there.My point is they never asked for it,especially in the form of sacrifices.

The trees merely want the right to exist,like we do.OK,I'll set it out in bold...

Weirwoods do not require or want human sacrifice.

I bolded the quote above yours,as its and interesting way of looking at it.But we don't know do we,the importance of blood in this story is emphasized heavily and we know what it means to various people maybe we should look at in in terms of the trees. If they are akin to a record of the land or books then mighten blood in that respect be "ink"?

Er, yeah... this is something we've discussed at length and some of us have a suspicion that the faces aren't carved. Its interesting that when speaking of the Isle of faces Maester Luwin says that the trees were "given" faces, and somehow the one in the Black Gate doesn't strike me as carved.

As to hanging sacrifices in oak trees that's exactly what's described as happening at White Harbor

I'm glad you too brought up the description of the Black Gate .I believe there is somelevel of changability there.

The point I was suggesting about the V6 passage was that he passes through the weirwood first en route to his experience of being in everything, but that all those things that he goes into move outward from the "perceptual field" of the weirwood. To me it seemed as if it might be pertinent to the question of whether a weirwood needs to have eyes for a green seer to see from it (some suggested that green seers could see even from trees without eyes, and also that weirwoods without eyes could themselves see), and also might suggest something about BR's comment to Bran that "in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves." I wonder if this means that the weirwoods will no longer be necessary at all, or if the weirwood is the door from which you can enter into things surrounding that weirwood (such a animals etc.), and then moving out from there, sort of leapfrogging from one creature (or set of creatures, as in flock of crows) to another, but all starting from the "doorway" that is the weirwood.

I agree with BC about WF being where Bran's "heart" resides. It's also significant, perhaps, that BR tells Bran that the weirwood paste will wed him to the trees, plural, so apparently he's bound to any and all of the weirwoods.

But do I have to hang people from my trees for this to work?

On the matter of the Weirwoods being the last stop even though V6 at the moment of death was sucked into One eye his experiance to me showed that going beyond the trees and into everything can be another level in this life then after that it gets a bit dark.

[wolfmaid7]

This post i found on the General Forum and i was wondering for those of you that have the app,did any of you come across this? I find some of this relevant to our current topic.

"I was just searching through the app and noticed the Dothraki found a large forest city in the north of Essos (near New Ibben) with people they called "Woods Walkers", they had trees with faces carved in them similar to the Weirwoods in Westeros also to the Far East north of Asshai, there is the City of the Bloodless Men, which has people who are pale as corpses and might even been the living dead reanimated by dark magic.(Kennedy the Keen). "

[TheButcherCrow]

Not sure if this has been discussed before and too undeveloped to really count as a theory so much as a thought, but...

The roots at Hollow Hill seem very reminiscent of the Cave of Skulls, as many have observed. Obvious speculation is that Hollow Hill is an old abandoned equivalent. I've wondered if this is actually connected to the dearth of weirwoods in the south. Perhaps the two caves used to be directly linked, major nodes in the weirnet if you like, and the failed Hammer of the Waters that created the marshes at the Neck actually broke the network in some fundamental way by severing a connection between the two weirwood root-caves that was necessary for the proper working of CoTF magic across Westeros?

Perhaps this breaking of the network might even be responsible for the messed up seasons in Westeros? Could the Isle of Faces be an emergency patch to the network? Massive wall of ICE, FIREwall? Are my network parallels going way too far? Yes, yes they are. I think it's an interesting thought though

lol, do weirwoods have CLI's :D Srsly tho, the roots run deep. The weirwoods are in themselves just a portal, a local gateway to access the WAN. The wider network itself could conceivably consist of everything in existence. The way that the old gods are described, they are not confined to the trees. They are the wind, the water, the earth and all that walk upon it. Every rock and blade of grass Every beetle getting murdered by a retarded Lannister. All of existence. The weirwoods are just nature's way of accessing that knowledge. All though, it does beg the question (again) just how natural is "wedding" a mortal being to an immortal weirgod ?:

EDIT

"NOT confined to the trees", kinda changes the meaning a tad :)