Heresy 133 The Weirwoods

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

A few thoughts about weirwood life cycles and propagation before things move on...

1. SEEDS. We only see weirwood seeds once in these first 5 books - and then only in a paste. But it's curious that no fewer than three different characters employ an expression about acorns (and oaks) to describe the nature of these powerful old trees. To wit, the characters are Jojen Reed, the Ghost of High Heart, and Lord Brynden Rivers. And here's what they have to say:

"Open your eye You have three. The crow gave you the third, but you will not open it. With two eyes you see my face. With three you could see my heart. With two you can see that oak tree there. With three you could see the acorn the oak grew from and the stump that it will one day become. With two you see no farther than your walls. With three you would gaze south to the Summer Sea and north beyond the Wall." (2.28, BRAN)

"Look in your fires, pink priest, and you will see. Not now, though, not here, you'll see nothing here. This place belongs to the old gods still... they linger here as I do, shrunken and feeble but not yet dead. Nor do they love the flames. For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both. And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists." - The Ghost of High Heart (3.43, ARYA)

For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood... a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past." - Brynden Rivers (5.34, BRAN)

2. FLOWERS and RED LEAVES. No weirwood flowers have appeared. We haven't read anything about weirwood tree pollen, either. In fact, there is only one use of the word "pollen" in these books at all, so far. Ned recalls that when he came down from the Eyrie during "the year of the false spring," he could "smell the pollen on the wind" (1.58, EDDARD). But there is a curious connection between the red leaves of the weirwood, and the blue winter rose so frequently connected with Winterfell. The red color of tree leaves is attributed to a category of pigments known as anthocyanins. And the word anthocyanin comes from the Greek ἀνθός [anthos = flower] + κυανός [kyanos = blue]. Bizarre, I know - but in a certain light, it looks like those weirwoods are crowned with blue flowers...

3. GRAFTS and CRAFTED FRUIT. Worth thinking about the fact that, while natural plants produce natural fruit - a grafted plant may produce a new, and unnatural fruit. If the difference between weirwoods-with-faces and weirwoods-without-faces operates in terms of the graft - then it is very possible that (at some level) they produce different fruits. (I say "at some level" because, given the fact that these are not just trees and men but also old gods and believers - and given that the graft metaphor is rather prominent in judeo-christian scriptures and theology - the "new fruit" of the grafted tree may take on something more than a simple botanical / biological appearance.)

The main problem I have with this is that you separate greenseers from Weirwoods.As far as I can tell you cannot be a greenseer without being connected root and stem to a Weirwood?

I think this is worth questioning. And I don't have an answer worked out... but does a greenseer have to be physically connected to the tree? Bloodraven is, certainly by the time Bran meets him. But Bran begins to "greensee" long before that could be a requirement. And Bloodraven was reputed to be a sorcerer long before he made to the Wall and beyond. Even the Ghost at High Heart might be a greenseer (or does she just get the "greendreams?"). And then we have this odd comment from Leaf, that seems to indicate that Bran's been a greenseer all along:

"Your blood makes you a greenseer," said Lord Brynden. "This [paste] will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees." (5.34, BRAN)

So, Bran was already a greenseer? And the paste is just a supplement? That ought to make us a bit suspicious...

.

[King Tyrion XX]

The point I was suggesting about the V6 passage was that he passes through the weirwood first en route to his experience of being in everything, but that all those things that he goes into move outward from the "perceptual field" of the weirwood. To me it seemed as if it might be pertinent to the question of whether a weirwood needs to have eyes for a green seer to see from it (some suggested that green seers could see even from trees without eyes, and also that weirwoods without eyes could themselves see), and also might suggest something about BR's comment to Bran that "in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves." I wonder if this means that the weirwoods will no longer be necessary at all, or if the weirwood is the door from which you can enter into things surrounding that weirwood (such a animals etc.), and then moving out from there, sort of leapfrogging from one creature (or set of creatures, as in flock of crows) to another, but all starting from the "doorway" that is the weirwood.

I agree with BC about WF being where Bran's "heart" resides. It's also significant, perhaps, that BR tells Bran that the weirwood paste will wed him to the trees, plural, so apparently he's bound to any and all of the weirwoods.

But do I have to hang people from my trees for this to work?

You just have to hang their intestines from trees, Wolf Den style :D

[wolfmaid7]

It's an interesting idea. Nature evolving it's own godhead. It would certainly make them less passive if there is an overall consciousness that flows through the world and imprints the memories of those it encounters. Perhaps drawing individuals to it upon death, not unlike Varamyr's encounter with the weirwood. Does the greenseer shape the tree or does the tree shape the greenseer? Bloodraven is more tree than man. I suspect there is a bit of both going on and that others use the trees to make themselves into gods. Or they use whatever serves as the wellspring of magic to do so. The old gods and the cold gods. The burning man and the great wolf. I think there might be some truth to Mel's statement that the Wall is as much her place as it is Jon's.

This is kind of the way i see it,and i think maybe both have the capacity to affect each other,or to push it the relationship could lean toward one more than the other.To me looking at it the tree is the one that benefits more the person just has to not leave and it becomes this "ego"

Which takes us back to Snowfyre Chorus' use of the term symbiont, I suppose. I hear what you're saying here, redriver, and Wolfmaid and LynnS, too, about the interrelationship between weirwood and greenseer, and I definitely think that regular experience of being joined to the tree will alter the consciousness of the greenseer, just like skinchanging will do. I'm just not clear, yet, on whether the weirwoods have consciousness without having "adopted" the minds of greenseers. But I suppose that's irrelevant, as they seem to have done so, just as greenseers have "adoped" the capabilities of the weirwoods to perceive. But we've also seen a greenseer, albeit a novice greenseer, pretty much express his own feelings (and words?) through a weirwood, which suggests that they could also be an instrument to be used for the ends of the Children or of the greenseer.

To add a bit more clarification too what i think is going on with the trees and the greenseers i will refer to the Gaouls (Stargate),The Trill (Star Trex) and who could forget good old Venom and Carnage (Spider Man cartoon series). These beings in themselves were highly intelligent ( Venom and carnage were a bit crazy) self aware and autonomous.Probably more dangerous because from inside their influence were so intense that at times the host was unaware,or unaware that they were being urged.Yet you look at the Gaouls and outside of their host you would think they are just viper like screeching things until they were joined to a human.

In a lot of the same ways the weirwood trees could be like that,though they are concious its not seen until they are joined to another.Too play the devil's advocate,their relationship could be parasitic or mutualistic meaning they could "become" self aware because because by natural design they collect the concoiusness of others.

A few thoughts about weirwood life cycles and propagation before things move on...

1. SEEDS. We only see weirwood seeds once in these first 5 books - and then only in a paste. But it's curious that no fewer than three different characters employ an expression about acorns (and oaks) to describe the nature of these powerful old trees. To wit, the characters are Jojen Reed, the Ghost of High Heart, and Lord Brynden Rivers. And here's what they have to say:

"Open your eye… You have three. The crow gave you the third, but you will not open it. With two eyes you see my face. With three you could see my heart. With two you can see that oak tree there. With three you could see the acorn the oak grew from and the stump that it will one day become. With two you see no farther than your walls. With three you would gaze south to the Summer Sea and north beyond the Wall." (2.28, BRAN)

"Look in your fires, pink priest, and you will see. Not now, though, not here, you'll see nothing here. This place belongs to the old gods still... they linger here as I do, shrunken and feeble but not yet dead. Nor do they love the flames. For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both. And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists." - The Ghost of High Heart (3.43, ARYA)

“…For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood... a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past." - Brynden Rivers (5.34, BRAN)

2. FLOWERS and RED LEAVES. No weirwood flowers have appeared. We haven't read anything about weirwood tree pollen, either. In fact, there is only one use of the word "pollen" in these books at all, so far. Ned recalls that when he came down from the Eyrie during "the year of the false spring," he could "smell the pollen on the wind" (1.58, EDDARD). But there is a curious connection between the red leaves of the weirwood, and the blue winter rose so frequently connected with Winterfell. The red color of tree leaves is attributed to a category of pigments known as anthocyanins. And the word anthocyanin comes from the Greek ἀνθός [anthos = flower] + κυανός [kyanos = blue]. Bizarre, I know - but in a certain light, it looks like those weirwood crowns are just chock-full of blue flowers...

3. GRAFTS and CRAFTED FRUIT. Worth thinking about the fact that, while natural plants produce natural fruit - a grafted plant may produce a new, and unnatural fruit. If the difference between weirwoods-with-faces and weirwoods-without-faces operates in terms of the graft - then it is very possible that (at some level) they produce different fruits. (I say "at some level" because, given the fact that these are not just trees and men but also old gods and believers - and given that the graft metaphor is rather prominent in judeo-christian scriptures and theology - the "new fruit" of the grafted tree may take on something more than a simple botanical / biological appearance.)

I think this is worth questioning. And I don't have an answer worked out... but does a greenseer have to be physically connected to the tree? Bloodraven is, certainly by the time Bran meets him. But Bran begins to "greensee" long before that could be a requirement. And Bloodraven was reputed to be a sorcerer long before he made to the Wall and beyond. Even the Ghost at High Heart might be a greenseer (or does she just get the "greendreams?"). And then we have this odd comment from Leaf, that seems to indicate that Bran's been a greenseer all along:

"Your blood makes you a greenseer," said Lord Brynden. "This [paste] will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees." (5.34, BRAN)

So, Bran was already a greenseer? And the paste is just a supplement? That ought to make us a bit suspicious...

I brought this up before concerning Greenseers and i think it is clear that Bran and his siblings are already that because of blood and as you worded like that it does make one raise the eyebrows a bit. Anyone that "mentors" a Stark kid is weilding some serious artillary just because of who they are they can cause a lot of damage or do a lot of good.So when Leaf says the Trees will teach Bran i have to ask,teach him to do what,to think how?

The propagation of the Weirwoods intrigued me because i found it strange that despite Leaf saying the paste is made up of Weirwoods seeds,their is no evidence that they even exist beyond that statement.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I think the seed paste may physically wed Bran to that particular tree or grove setting him up to take the place of Bloodraven - That it has naught to do with the greenseer ability but the physical transformation. To make Bran an Ent basically. So when it comes to the greenseers like Bloodraven and possibly Bran, they might be giants.

The propagation of wierwoods debate...

Obviously there are seeds, but when do the trees bloom? Very rarely I guess. Could it be that the weirwoods only bloom in winter? They are not your average tree so why not? As moon flowers bloom at night, so may a weirwood. As to the seeds that Bran ate, they may have stored for a long time in preperation for the wedding ceremony of Bran or greenseers in general.

ETA iirc we did not see the grove above the cave of skulls so...

[Eira Seren]

The twist, of course, being that in the North they seem to believe that all things of importance must be done beneath the heart tree. Jon's fantasy is a subtle nod to that idea... one of the hints that leave me wondering what Northern traditions Martin has (so far) withheld from his readers. And if lovemaking in the sight of the trees is really a thing, then Sam's sexual encounter with Gilly aboard the Cinnamon Wind deserves a second look. When he tells her he can't take a wife because he said his words "before a heart tree," she responds that "there are no trees" at sea. Was she trying to reassure Sam, telling him the trees will never know? That sex at sea is commitment-free?This role - witness and guardian of knowledge - is also likely to prove significant from the perspective of storytelling, as our narrative moves forward. Bran has already caught glimpses of history through the Winterfell heart tree. And knowing that such "secret access" to past events may be available, it's worth pointing out that Martin has carved out certain narrative gaps in this story along the way - "offstage" moments in which certain characters are left alone, offstage, with only a weirwood for company.

Snowfyre, this is an amazing list, and an extremely thorough compilation of weirwoods. I really like how you define the weirwoods as symbionts, and as a liminal space, on the boundaries but connecting the COTF wiith other things.

There's more to reply to but for now, I wonder about the above passage. It's probably just partly old 'folk/urban' legend, but the idea that the weirwood witnesses the marriage, and possibly also (as Jon imagines) the consumation, seems to echo the older medieval idea that the best man's role in the wedding party used to be slightly different. He was there to guard the church/ceremony against the bride's kinsman, back when bride-snatching was all the rage, and to hold them off long enough for the wedding (and possible subsequent finalizing of the union) to take place. While this notion was possibly popularized by Alan Rickman in Robin Hood (save us from that death scene), there are echoes of the 'bride-stealing' tradition, as well as the custom in the South of undressing the bride and groom, thereby witnessing and participating (and guaranteeing) the logical conclusion.

The inclusion of the Heart Tree also seems reminiscent of some of the pagan traditions surrounding Beltane and other fertility rituals, where both sacrifice and sexual union are different faces of important celebrations throughout the year, and take place at important sites -- like groves, hilltops, etc. In that sense, the union or sacrifice also reconnects the participants to the entities (gods, goddesses, or other natural forces) of the land, and results in some kind of rebirth or renewal.. As we're heading for the Corn King idea again here, I'll stop. But it was an amusing little daydream of Jon's and a good point, that there seem to be some allusions to earlier practices that GRRM hasn't elaborated upon yet.

[addicted to snow]

I am of the opinion that Weirwoods are 100% Passive… In my mind, the system works much like the following analog:

Weirnet = Internet (aka the World Wide Web, thanks Al Gore)

Weirwood Tree = A Computer/Server (basically a terminal providing access to the Weirnet)

Greenseer = A User (anyone using the weirnet, in a world where the right genetics are required to access the Weirnet - a concept that makes GRRM ultra-racist)

I have never thought of the trees as being self-aware. Though I do believe that the consciousness's of all the long dead Greenseers are very self-aware. Since the Weirwood do 'house' these self-awared souls, I suppose that it could be argued that the weirwoods are themselves self-aware, but that is not really how I interpret the texts. When Leaf makes the statement: "The Trees will teach him", I interpret this to mean that the collective group of conciousness's / souls within the weirwoods will teach him, not the trees themselves… I also believe this statement by Leaf foreshadows the upcoming death of Bloodraven in the next book...

[Black Crow]

I think this is worth questioning. And I don't have an answer worked out... but does a greenseer have to be physically connected to the tree? Bloodraven is, certainly by the time Bran meets him. But Bran begins to "greensee" long before that could be a requirement. And Bloodraven was reputed to be a sorcerer long before he made to the Wall and beyond. Even the Ghost at High Heart might be a greenseer (or does she just get the "greendreams?"). And then we have this odd comment from Leaf, that seems to indicate that Bran's been a greenseer all along:

"Your blood makes you a greenseer," said Lord Brynden. "This [paste] will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees." (5.34, BRAN)

So, Bran was already a greenseer? And the paste is just a supplement? That ought to make us a bit suspicious...

The business of "wedding" Bran [and presumably Bloodraven before him] to the trees might be a clue here.

There was that remark earlier by Greatjon Umber about wedding the Dragons. Now granted he was talking in the context of kneeling to the Targaryens, but I wonder if there's actually a deeper significance. There's been a lot of talk from time to time about Ice Dragons and speculation that there really is one somewhere which will be as a counter in some way to the Fire Dragons, but it may actually be the case that the weirwoods are the Westerosi equivalent of dragons.

Both have been woken from stone at about the same time and are at the centre of the magic.

[LynnS]

The business of "wedding" Bran [and presumably Bloodraven before him] to the trees might be a clue here.

There was that remark earlier by Greatjon Umber about wedding the Dragons. Now granted he was talking in the context of kneeling to the Targaryens, but I wonder if there's actually a deeper significance. There's been a lot of talk from time to time about Ice Dragons and speculation that there really is one somewhere which will be as a counter in some way to the Fire Dragons, but it may actually be the case that the weirwoods are the Westerosi equivalent of dragons.

Both have been woken from stone at about the same time and are at the centre of the magic.

WOW! I accept that.

[addicted to snow]

The business of "wedding" Bran [and presumably Bloodraven before him] to the trees might be a clue here.

There was that remark earlier by Greatjon Umber about wedding the Dragons. Now granted he was talking in the context of kneeling to the Targaryens, but I wonder if there's actually a deeper significance. There's been a lot of talk from time to time about Ice Dragons and speculation that there really is one somewhere which will be as a counter in some way to the Fire Dragons, but it may actually be the case that the weirwoods are the Westerosi equivalent of dragons.

Both have been woken from stone at about the same time and are at the centre of the magic.

I have always equated the Dragons to the Weirwoods as opposed to the more common line of thought that the Dragons are counterpart to the Others… I'm pretty sure that Bran will be able to make Weirwoods do things that we can't yet imagine...

On the topic of Ice Dragons; Bran is the 'Winged Wolf'… I think that means that he will fly something more significant than a blackbird before the story is all said & done… Will that be an Ice Dragon or one of Dany's Dragons? I do not know...

[LynnS]

You just have to hang their intestines from trees, Wolf Den style :D

More comedy that I don't understand? I don't know how to respond to that. This?

I thought this was the place to come for the free flow exchange of ideas, respecting the dignity of others with great good humor. At least, that's how it's billed. How does mockery and sarcasm honor and serve that end?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

The business of "wedding" Bran [and presumably Bloodraven before him] to the trees might be a clue here.

There was that remark earlier by Greatjon Umber about wedding the Dragons. Now granted he was talking in the context of kneeling to the Targaryens, but I wonder if there's actually a deeper significance. There's been a lot of talk from time to time about Ice Dragons and speculation that there really is one somewhere which will be as a counter in some way to the Fire Dragons, but it may actually be the case that the weirwoods are the Westerosi equivalent of dragons.

Both have been woken from stone at about the same time and are at the centre of the magic.

Yes - and if you want to go in that direction, then it's probably time to talk a bit about Nagga:

On the crown of the hill four-and-forty monstrous stone ribs rose from the earth like the trunks of great pale trees. The sight made Aeron' s heart beat faster. Nagga had been the first sea dragon, the mightiest ever to rise from the waves. She fed on krakens and leviathans and drowned whole islands in her wrath, yet the Grey King had slain her and the Drowned God had changed her bones to stone so that men might never cease to wonder at the courage of the first of kings. Nagga's ribs became the beams and pillars of his longhall, just as her jaws became his throne. For a thousand years and seven he reigned here, Aeron recalled. Here he took his mermaid wife and planned his wars against the Storm God. From here he ruled both stone and salt, wearing robes of woven seaweed and a tall pale crown made from Nagga's teeth.

But that was in the dawn of days, when mighty men still dwelt on earth and sea. The hall had been warmed by Nagga's living fire, which the Grey King had made his thrall. On its walls hung tapestries woven from silver seaweed most pleasing to the eyes. The Grey King's warriors had feasted on the bounty of the sea at a table in the shape of a great starfish, whilst seated upon thrones carved from mother-of-pearl. Gone, all the glory gone. Men were smaller now. Their lives had grown short. The Storm God drowned Nagga's fire after the Grey King's death, the chairs and tapestries had been stolen, the roof and walls had rotted away. Even the Grey King's great throne of fangs had been swallowed by the sea. Only Nagga's bones endured to remind the ironborn of all the wonder that had been.

(4.19 - THE DROWNED MAN)

[butterbumps!]

Wonderful piece, Snowfyre! (and wolfmaid as well for the wildlings compendium; I missed the discussion of that, but nicely done)

More comedy that I don't understand? I don't know how to respond to that. This?

I thought this was the place to come for the free flow exchange of ideas, respecting the dignity of others with great good humor. At least, that's how it's billed. How does mockery and sarcasm honor and serve that end?

Oh, this is a reference to the story about the Wolf's Den in White Harbor in (I think) Davos' III, DwD. Ages ago, Brandon "Ice Eyes" Stark found a bunch of slavers hanging out there (this is before the Starks turn over WH to House Manderly), and let the slaves disembowel them, hanging the intestines from the tree. Which is a fairly over-the-top "offering," in context.

On the wierwoods, though, something's always nagged me. They're very anthropomorphic. Beyond the faces, trunks like bone, and sap like blood, they have red leaves that look like hands-- human, 5 fingered hands, as opposed to the CotF's 4-fingered claws. Bloody Hands. They seem to be made in man's image (or man in theirs, I suppose, depending on how one looks at it).

Doesn't it seem a little interesting that the wierwoods resemble man, rather than the apparently original beings who worshipped them?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I am of the opinion that Weirwoods are 100% Passive In my mind, the system works much like the following analog:

Weirnet = Internet (aka the World Wide Web, thanks Al Gore)

Weirwood Tree = A Computer/Server (basically a terminal providing access to the Weirnet)

Greenseer = A User (anyone using the weirnet, in a world where the right genetics are required to access the Weirnet - a concept that makes GRRM ultra-racist)

I have never thought of the trees as being self-aware. Though I do believe that the consciousness's of all the long dead Greenseers are very self-aware. Since the Weirwood do 'house' these self-awared souls, I suppose that it could be argued that the weirwoods are themselves self-aware, but that is not really how I interpret the texts. When Leaf makes the statement: "The Trees will teach him", I interpret this to mean that the collective group of conciousness's / souls within the weirwoods will teach him, not the trees themselves I also believe this statement by Leaf foreshadows the upcoming death of Bloodraven in the next book...

I think this is most likely.

The weirwoods have the same awareness of other trees. Sunlight and seasons. With the concsiousness of the second lives of greenseers held within the trees the greenseers are basically using the dead to access the world through time and space. The trees branch out to all creation, connecting earth sky and water, making any place available to those with the gift to see.

[Black Crow]

On the wierwoods, though, something's always nagged me. They're very anthropomorphic. Beyond the faces, trunks like bone, and sap like blood, they have red leaves that look like hands-- human, 5 fingered hands, as opposed to the CotF's 4-fingered claws. Bloody Hands. They seem to be made in man's image (or man in theirs, I suppose, depending on how one looks at it).

Doesn't it seem a little interesting that the wierwoods resemble man, rather than the apparently original beings who worshipped them?

It is, but it might be worth considering the effect of grafting here. If we start off with the proposition that the trees already had eyes when the First Men tooled up and that the troubles began when men started cutting them down, its reasonable to suppose that those faces resembled those of the Singers. We know however that men took to worshipping the Old Gods and that men were sacrificed willingly or otherwise to the trees; hence the theory that the faces reflect those sacrificed.

Now if we switch for a moment to that humbugging speech by Leaf about how all things must die and Bran's silent response that men would fight; might that explain why we think that the Old Gods are fighting back, because enough of man has been grafted into them?

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Wow, I was gonna add some more but this post is just so complete and awesome.

Bless this post and Snowfyre: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[wolfmaid7]

I think the seed paste may physically wed Bran to that particular tree or grove setting him up to take the place of Bloodraven - That it has naught to do with the greenseer ability but the physical transformation. To make Bran an Ent basically. So when it comes to the greenseers like Bloodraven and possibly Bran, they might be giants.

The propagation of wierwoods debate...

Obviously there are seeds, but when do the trees bloom? Very rarely I guess. Could it be that the weirwoods only bloom in winter? They are not your average tree so why not? As moon flowers bloom at night, so may a weirwood. As to the seeds that Bran ate, they may have stored for a long time in preperation for the wedding ceremony of Bran or greenseers in general.

ETA iirc we did not see the grove above the cave of skulls so...

That isn't obvious at all AdancewithFlagons no breadcrumbs.The thing is and i've said before despite what Leaf calls the paste we have seen no evidence of Weirwood seeds "anywhere" in the story.We have had characters from the North speaking of past winters North and South of the Wall,no one makes mention of seeing the Weirwood tree bloom.Full moon ,no full moon.What color are the flowers for instance?Anyone seeing seeds on the ground near any tree Heart or otherwise the COTF can't collect seeds from every tree that produces them whereby there would be no evidence of them.This is very strange and calls into question exactly what they fed Bran.

I am of the opinion that Weirwoods are 100% Passive… In my mind, the system works much like the following analog:

Weirnet = Internet (aka the World Wide Web, thanks Al Gore)

Weirwood Tree = A Computer/Server (basically a terminal providing access to the Weirnet)

Greenseer = A User (anyone using the weirnet, in a world where the right genetics are required to access the Weirnet - a concept that makes GRRM ultra-racist)

I have never thought of the trees as being self-aware. Though I do believe that the consciousness's of all the long dead Greenseers are very self-aware. Since the Weirwood do 'house' these self-awared souls, I suppose that it could be argued that the weirwoods are themselves self-aware, but that is not really how I interpret the texts. When Leaf makes the statement: "The Trees will teach him", I interpret this to mean that the collective group of conciousness's / souls within the weirwoods will teach him, not the trees themselves… I also believe this statement by Leaf foreshadows the upcoming death of Bloodraven in the next book...

One of other possibility,they can be 100% self-aware with their relationship of choice being symbiotically mutualistic or parasitic it all depends on how you choose to see it. There is a reason why GRRM chose to mirrior the North after Animism.To separate the trees from the greenseers is a problem because its no longer a collection of souls that will teach Bran,they no longer exist.The Weirwood tree is essenstially something new,it has become a living soul itself.

The business of "wedding" Bran [and presumably Bloodraven before him] to the trees might be a clue here.

There was that remark earlier by Greatjon Umber about wedding the Dragons. Now granted he was talking in the context of kneeling to the Targaryens, but I wonder if there's actually a deeper significance. There's been a lot of talk from time to time about Ice Dragons and speculation that there really is one somewhere which will be as a counter in some way to the Fire Dragons, but it may actually be the case that the weirwoods are the Westerosi equivalent of dragons.

Both have been woken from stone at about the same time and are at the centre of the magic.

Ooooo me likey.

Yes - and if you want to go in that direction, then it's probably time to talk a bit about Nagga:

On the crown of the hill four-and-forty monstrous stone ribs rose from the earth like the trunks of great pale trees. The sight made Aeron' s heart beat faster. Nagga had been the first sea dragon, the mightiest ever to rise from the waves. She fed on krakens and leviathans and drowned whole islands in her wrath, yet the Grey King had slain her and the Drowned God had changed her bones to stone so that men might never cease to wonder at the courage of the first of kings. Nagga's ribs became the beams and pillars of his longhall, just as her jaws became his throne. For a thousand years and seven he reigned here, Aeron recalled. Here he took his mermaid wife and planned his wars against the Storm God. From here he ruled both stone and salt, wearing robes of woven seaweed and a tall pale crown made from Nagga's teeth.

But that was in the dawn of days, when mighty men still dwelt on earth and sea. The hall had been warmed by Nagga's living fire, which the Grey King had made his thrall. On its walls hung tapestries woven from silver seaweed most pleasing to the eyes. The Grey King's warriors had feasted on the bounty of the sea at a table in the shape of a great starfish, whilst seated upon thrones carved from mother-of-pearl. Gone, all the glory gone. Men were smaller now. Their lives had grown short. The Storm God drowned Nagga's fire after the Grey King's death, the chairs and tapestries had been stolen, the roof and walls had rotted away. Even the Grey King's great throne of fangs had been swallowed by the sea. Only Nagga's bones endured to remind the ironborn of all the wonder that had been.

(4.19 - THE DROWNED MAN)

Wonderful piece, Snowfyre! (and wolfmaid as well for the wildlings compendium; I missed the discussion of that, but nicely done)

Oh, this is a reference to the story about the Wolf's Den in White Harbor in (I think) Davos' III, DwD. Ages ago, Brandon "Ice Eyes" Stark found a bunch of slavers hanging out there (this is before the Starks turn over WH to House Manderly), and let the slaves disembowel them, hanging the intestines from the tree. Which is a fairly over-the-top "offering," in context.

On the wierwoods, though, something's always nagged me. They're very anthropomorphic. Beyond the faces, trunks like bone, and sap like blood, they have red leaves that look like hands-- human, 5 fingered hands, as opposed to the CotF's 4-fingered claws. Bloody Hands. They seem to be made in man's image (or man in theirs, I suppose, depending on how one looks at it).

Doesn't it seem a little interesting that the wierwoods resemble man, rather than the apparently original beings who worshipped them?

Yeah there is definitely some chicken or egg thought going on.I asked this question myself about the faces not having COTF features and i buy BC'c explanation of the morphing.So it may have been like that in the Dawn age where the faces had their features,but after man entered the system we get the gist.It does kinda have a "Little shop of horrors feeling" another reason why i think the trees aren't passive.They assimilate people and look like what they assimilate because hey what's that saying..

"You are what you eat".

It is, but it might be worth considering the effect of grafting here. If we start off with the proposition that the trees already had eyes when the First Men tooled up and that the troubles began when men started cutting them down, its reasonable to suppose that those faces resembled those of the Singers. We know however that men took to worshipping the Old Gods and that men were sacrificed willingly or otherwise to the trees; hence the theory that the faces reflect those sacrificed.

Now if we switch for a moment to that humbugging speech by Leaf about how all things must die and Bran's silent response that men would fight; might that explain why we think that the Old Gods are fighting back, because enough of man has been grafted into them?

As you say that BC this occured to me,the COTF were more or less passifists they fought the First Men because they had to,but honestly they don't know the art of warfare. Their interaction on this level with the FM may have been purely defensive and not offensive.They don't know how to be violent,its probably not in their nature to think like that. So what better way but to have the GS be human.

[LynnS]

I'm now wondering about the properties of weirwood turned to stone. If dragonglass is frozen fire what is weirstone? And can it be used against dragons?

There are some objects made of weirwood: doors, arrows, mask and throne. What about Jon's sword with it's carving of a wolf made of white stone?

[Lord Ravenstark]

The business of "wedding" Bran [and presumably Bloodraven before him] to the trees might be a clue here.

There was that remark earlier by Greatjon Umber about wedding the Dragons. Now granted he was talking in the context of kneeling to the Targaryens, but I wonder if there's actually a deeper significance. There's been a lot of talk from time to time about Ice Dragons and speculation that there really is one somewhere which will be as a counter in some way to the Fire Dragons, but it may actually be the case that the weirwoods are the Westerosi equivalent of dragons.

Both have been woken from stone at about the same time and are at the centre of the magic.

But Weirwoods were never stone, they will be if they die and they never died when the magic was gone. Anyway, I think we are getting something.

If Weirwoods are the Westerosi equivalent of dragons, do they have any offensive potencial? I mean, other than being a magic power houses, home to a god system, power to see the past and maybe the future, power to control other beings... maybe summon an army of inhuman beings?

[Black Crow]

But Weirwoods were never stone, they will be if they die and they never died when the magic was gone. Anyway, I think we are getting something.

If Weirwoods are the Westerosi equivalent of dragons, do they have any offensive potencial? I mean, other than being a magic power houses, home to a god system, power to see the past and maybe the future, power to control other beings... maybe summon an army of inhuman beings?

But they needed to be awakened, which is what Qhorin Halfhand warned of.

As to offensive capabilities, I think not. I think the point of the faces is not that the trees themselves are sentient but that they provide a host for the Greenseers, which allows them to use their powers to the utmost, whether bringing down the Hammer, raising the Wall or turning Craster's sons into warriors made of ice and snow and cold.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Thanks to all for the great, ongoing discussion! Just briefly want to catch up here on some of the posts I haven't been able to respond to...

This very much reminds me of the Gaia Theory.

Sorry for the late response on this, King of Winters - but yes, I think the Gaia Theory is something worth keeping in mind with respect to Westeros and the weirwoods. Thanks for that link! :)

Excellent essay and compendium,Snowfyre.

The symbiosis element you alluded to in the essay has intrigued me for some time now.The word ,as you know,is an umbrella term which covers a range of relationships from parasitic to mutually assured survival,and many in between.

The question for me is what's in it for the greenseer,and perhaps more importantly,what's in it for the trees?And do these gains merge in a combined benefit?

The greenseer surrenders physical mobility and bodily control but gains extended life span together with "super powers" of being able to view events in history and the future regardless of spacial barriers.How they can influence the future is less clear,but textual evidence indicates they can.

From a species-centric point of view the Weirwoods were facing a mass extinction event post the arrival of the First Men.In part because the FM were afraid of the already carved faces on certain Weirwoods,and probably more mundane reasons like clearing land for farming.Either way they were in troubled times.The faces on the trees indicate the the Singers/Trees already had this symbiotic-greenseer relationship(where/when that began is another question) but I suggest that somewhere after this war began the idea emerged that a human greenseer was needed to gain insight into the old gods and transmit this knowledge to the First Men.

There is a slightly morbid tendency among us to see the Weirwoods as parasitic in this relationship,but the roots take whatever they want very slowly.Perhaps that's knowledge not blood?

Did they ever want or need blood?

Thanks, redriver. And good question. I wonder if there are separate but complementary magical roles being played here by offerings of (1) blood, and (2) bone. Blood containing and representing life; bone containing and representing knowledge or memory? We are told that the bones remember, but transactions of bloodmagic are required to pay for life...

Bones remember.

The heart tree of Winterfell has roots going down the crypts. Perhaps Bran will be able to reach the family memoir. I think Bran Vras suggested something like this before.

You may have already read these, Paper Waver - but Eira Seren's Heaney essay(s) deserve mention in any discussion of bones and memory. They are certainly relevant to this thread, and I offer up these links to everyone with my highest recommendation.

Eira Seren's Heaney essay(s):

Part I

Part II

Part III

This post i found on the General Forum and i was wondering for those of you that have the app,did any of you come across this? I find some of this relevant to our current topic.

"I was just searching through the app and noticed the Dothraki found a large forest city in the north of Essos (near New Ibben) with people they called "Woods Walkers", they had trees with faces carved in them similar to the Weirwoods in Westeros also to the Far East north of Asshai, there is the City of the Bloodless Men, which has people who are pale as corpses and might even been the living dead reanimated by dark magic.(Kennedy the Keen). "

Nice find, Wolfmaid. Arya Havinfun mentioned this forest city earlier in the thread, and I had not seen it before. It's certainly intriguing. To be honest, I sort of hope George leaves it as mysterious exposition... but maybe I'm still just a bit overwhelmed by the amount of weirwood info already on the table! :)

Thanks, Eira! That's a nice tie-in there about the role of the best man, and expectations with respect to marriage consummation. That is not something I was familiar with, but it does remind me very much of the connection drawn between the heart tree and the septon (as witness and officiant) in a couple of the excerpts I quoted in the OP(s). Actually, the "septon" analogy was one of several roles I separated out in my notes early in my essay prep, and which was eventually subsumed into the idea of a "mediator" between realms (for the septon/priest, those would be the realms of the holy and the mundane, or sacred and profane). It's not difficult at all to draw together images of the tree, the gods, the septon/priest and the king in Martin's text - and doing so, we really might end up with a rough sketch of ancient Celtic priest-king traditions, in Martinian terms.

More comedy that I don't understand? I don't know how to respond to that. This?

I thought this was the place to come for the free flow exchange of ideas, respecting the dignity of others with great good humor. At least, that's how it's billed. How does mockery and sarcasm honor and serve that end?

Oops - sorry, LynnS... that's another excerpt I definitely should have included in my OP essay! As butterbumps! says, it comes from a story related to Davos by Ser Bartimus, the chief gaoler at the Wolf's Den in White Harbor, and it is actually the first time that Martin explicitly reveals the practice of blood sacrifice in connection with weirwoods among the northmen. Looks like I included the last piece of the dialogue, but not the story that preceded it. Here's a fuller version of that excerpt:

When old King Edrick Stark had grown too feeble to defend his realm, the Wolf’s Den was captured by slavers from the Stepstones. They would brand their captives with hot irons and break them to the whip before shipping them off across the sea, and these same black stone walls bore witness. ... "Then a long cruel winter fell," said Ser Bartimus. "The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard's great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf’s Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he'd found chained up in the dungeons. It’s said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don't know winter, and winter don't know them."

Davos could not argue with the truth of that. From what he had seen at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, he did not care to know winter either. "What gods do you keep?" he asked the one-legged knight.

"The old ones." When Ser Bartimus grinned, he looked just like a skull. "Me and mine were here before the Manderlys. Like as not, my own forebears strung those entrails through the tree."

"I never knew that northmen made blood sacrifice to their heart trees."

"There's much and more you southrons do not know about the north" Ser Bartimus replied.

(5.29, DAVOS)