Heresy 133 The Weirwoods

[butterbumps!]

That's interesting. Maintaining the balance and the status quo? All men must die but not the gods? Their magic seems connected to the Black Gate and as BC is suggesting the god's eye. I still think that to restore balance all the magic has to be unbound whether that is on the fire side, ice side or the FM side. The hinges, the doors and the wall have to be removed although this would unleash all the shades and powers that the FM attempt to keep chained up or in balance.

You could be right that Trios is just a local god. I've come to think that anything anomolous that turns up in Tyrion's narrative needs a second look. The statue is situated next to the fountain of the drunken god (the drowned god?). This makes me think of wellsprings of magic and that bottomless wells seem to be co-located with important wierwoods (Winterfell/Black Gate).

Oh, I'm not sure. Maintaining "balance" isn't always about stasis. Pendulums and even something like a musical fugue are dynamic forms of "balance." I'd not connected the Faceless to maintenance of the status quo (they were/ are pretty against institutionalized slavery, for instance. Whether they caused the Doom or not, the very fact they were Gifting themselves and their masters is a form of defiance against the status quo).

I'm not sure if their magic is necessarily connected to the Black Gate, per se. Their magic (I assume you're referring to changing their faces?) seems similar to skinchanging, wearing flayed skins, or "warging" the dead.

But, lol, ok, this is kind of funny. I'd just submitted my Faceless essay for the prompt in the next installment of Heresy, and I actually presented a bunch of comparisons to other magics and the like. So I'm wondering if some of these larger Faceless questions would be better suited to the next Heresy (134), since it's going to be about the Faceless.

[Mithras]

Yes, more specifically it's that first head that would be one of the MFG's faces.

But why is it necessarily related to fire? Do you mean by the Tyroshi who worship Trios, the Faceless, or in some objective sense?

The symbolism involving fire and devouring is evident.

R’hllor was a jealous deity, ever hungry. So the new god devoured the corpse of the old, and cast gigantic shadows of Stannis and Melisandre upon the Wall, black against the ruddy red reflections on the ice.

Devan fed fresh logs to the fire until the flames leapt up again, fierce and furious, driving the shadows back into the corners of the room, devouring all her unwanted dreams.

Drogon especially ranged far afield and could easily devour a sheep a day.

I am looking into hell, but I dare not look away. She had never been so certain of anything. If I run from him, he will burn me and devour me.

Of Daenerys Targaryen, no trace had been found. Some swore they saw her fall. Others insisted that the dragon had carried her off to devour her.

“She is gone. Burned and devoured.”

Hizdahr licked his lips. “The beast devoured Barsena’s flesh. Dragons prey on men. It was killing, burning …”

“A ship gone down, and only him clinging to the wreckage,” said Wulfe One-Ear. “Where’s the crew? Did he call down demons to devour them? What happened to this ship?”

“A storm.” Moqorro crossed his arms against his chest.

He [Varamyr] died his first death when he was only six, as his father’s axe crashed through his skull. Even that had not been so agonizing as the fire in his guts, crackling along his wings, devouring him.

Haggon would call it an abomination, the blackest sin of all, but Haggon was dead, devoured, and burned.

ETA: This is compatible with your idea of Dany as the catalyst of change and champion of fire, symbolized by the first head of Trios. She is not interested in rebirth, her only concern is to devour the dying.

[butterbumps!]

The symbolism involving fire and devouring is evident.

R’hllor was a jealous deity, ever hungry. So the new god devoured the corpse of the old, and cast gigantic shadows of Stannis and Melisandre upon the Wall, black against the ruddy red reflections on the ice.

Devan fed fresh logs to the fire until the flames leapt up again, fierce and furious, driving the shadows back into the corners of the room, devouring all her unwanted dreams.

Drogon especially ranged far afield and could easily devour a sheep a day.

I am looking into hell, but I dare not look away. She had never been so certain of anything. If I run from him, he will burn me and devour me.

Of Daenerys Targaryen, no trace had been found. Some swore they saw her fall. Others insisted that the dragon had carried her off to devour her.

“She is gone. Burned and devoured.”

Hizdahr licked his lips. “The beast devoured Barsena’s flesh. Dragons prey on men. It was killing, burning …”

“A ship gone down, and only him clinging to the wreckage,” said Wulfe One-Ear. “Where’s the crew? Did he call down demons to devour them? What happened to this ship?”

“A storm.” Moqorro crossed his arms against his chest.

He [Varamyr] died his first death when he was only six, as his father’s axe crashed through his skull. Even that had not been so agonizing as the fire in his guts, crackling along his wings, devouring him.

Haggon would call it an abomination, the blackest sin of all, but Haggon was dead, devoured, and burned.

ETA: This is compatible with your idea of Dany as the catalyst of change and champion of fire, symbolized by the first head of Trios. She is not interested in rebirth, her only concern is to devour the dying.

I wasn't disagreeing with the fact that Martin connects the concepts of "consuming" and "devouring" with fire.

I'm trying to see how you're envisioning this connection with the 1st head of Trios specifically. Is your thought that the Tyroshi personified fire thusly? Like their own spin on R'hllor, where you die, then are reborn in the Light of the Lord?

Or are you suggesting that the Faceless believe that death is actually "fire"?

Or are you suggesting that Martin is using "devour" and "fire" interchangeably in any context?

[LynnS]

Oh, I'm not sure. Maintaining "balance" isn't always about stasis. Pendulums and even something like a musical fugue are dynamic forms of "balance." I'd not connected the Faceless to maintenance of the status quo (they were/ are pretty against institutionalized slavery, for instance. Whether they caused the Doom or not, the very fact they were Gifting themselves and their masters is a form of defiance against the status quo).

I'm not sure if their magic is necessarily connected to the Black Gate, per se. Their magic (I assume you're referring to changing their faces?) seems similar to skinchanging, wearing flayed skins, or "warging" the dead.

But, lol, ok, this is kind of funny. I'd just submitted my Faceless essay for the prompt in the next installment of Heresy, and I actually presented a bunch of comparisons to other magics and the like. So I'm wondering if some of these larger Faceless questions would be better suited to the next Heresy (134), since it's going to be about the Faceless.

Sure, I can wait. Food for thought; the Black Gate is a face essentially hung on the Wall; Arya sees the ghost skins hanging on the wall in the HoB&W. Coincidence? Her experience is that they retain memory of the dead person. If the old gods are waking and they're hungry; is it feeding time at the zoo? Do the FM keep the gods or serve the gods?

I don't think I can separate Trios from the ice dragon in spite of the location. Or the sorrowful men from the faceless men. I think they might be relics of the ongoing conflict from an earlier time. Although it seems the sorrowful men still exist if Varys is indeed one as some suggest from the epilogue of DwD. There seems to be a connection through him to the drowned god when he says: The waves crash overhead and he keeps paddling along (underneath the waves).

[butterbumps!]

Sure, I can wait. Food for thought; the Black Gate is a face essentially hung on the Wall; Arya sees the ghost skins hanging on the wall in the HoB&W. Coincidence? Her experience is that they retain memory of the dead person. If the old gods are waking and they're hungry; is it feeding time at the zoo? Do the FM keep the gods or serve the gods?

I don't think I can separate Trios from the ice dragon in spite of the location. Or the sorrowful men from the faceless men. I think they might be relics of the ongoing conflict from an earlier time. Although it seems the sorrowful men still exist if Varys is indeed one as some suggest from the epilogue of DwD. There seems to be a connection through him to the drowned god when he says: The waves crash overhead and he keeps paddling along (underneath the waves).

But the sorrowful men aren't anything like the faceless, with the obvious exception being that they both assassinate. The sorrowful men are sorry to kill you. They don't understand death as a Gift, don't see life as a "vale of tears and pain" (and thus, why they are sorry to kill you), nor is there any indication that their assassinations are paid for with the kind of great sacrifice the Faceless' are. The sorrowful are hitmen it seems; the Faceless are more like "death's accountants."

I know you've already explained this somewhat, but could you clarify why the ice-dragon and Trios are so strongly connected? The only ice dragon in the story thus far is the constellation that houses the North Star, pointing the way north. (ETA: I should clarify I mean in a concrete sense. Beyond Old Nan's tales and a metaphoric reading of Jon Snow).

side note: This thread might be of interest, in light of the weirwood focus, here. A poster in General connected the Drowned God's beliefs (Nagga especially) to the CotF and weirwoods.

[LynnS]

But the sorrowful men aren't anything like the faceless, with the obvious exception being that they both assassinate. The sorrowful men are sorry to kill you. They don't understand death as a Gift, don't see life as a "vale of tears and pain" (and thus, why they are sorry to kill you), nor is there any indication that their assassinations are paid for with the kind of great sacrifice the Faceless' are. The sorrowful are hitmen it seems; the Faceless are more like "death's accountants."

I know you've already explained this somewhat, but could you clarify why the ice-dragon and Trios are so strongly connected? The only ice dragon in the story thus far is the constellation that houses the North Star, pointing the way north. (ETA: I should clarify I mean in a concrete sense. Beyond Old Nan's tales and a metaphoric reading of Jon Snow).

side note: This thread might be of interest, in light of the weirwood focus, here. A poster in General connected the Drowned God's beliefs (Nagga especially) to the CotF and weirwoods.

Wasn't the first part of the story of the FM that slaves were given the gift of death because of their sorrow? The FM aren't above assassination for political purposes.

Trios could fit the drowned god; since one head drowns them, the other brings them back from the dead and we don't know what the middle head does yet. It might depend on which side of the door is chosen. Not sure about the accounting. LOL!

[butterbumps!]

Wasn't the first part of the story of the FM that slaves were given the gift of death because of their sorrow? The FM aren't above assassination for political purposes.

Trios could fit the drowned god; since one head drowns them, the other brings them back from the dead and we don't know what the middle head does yet. It might depend on which side of the door is chosen. Not sure about the accounting. LOL!

Slaves were granted the gift because they prayed for release from a life of unmitigated suffering. To give someone else the gift, you have to make a huge sacrifice (sometimes of your own life), which means it's not a typical hit, in the sense that one does not benefit from the death of another.

The FM do have some axes to grind. Slavery and those who seek immortality are what they find problematic, because both of these things disrupt the natural order. They are as much about a more metaphysical order as they are politics.

Since this particular thread is about the weirwoods, I guess I should point out that the door at the HotBaW differs from both the Black Gate and the HotU door in the sense that it's basically taoist symbology. Equal parts of black and white, harmonized as a complementary face like a yin yang. Clear division between black and white, not interlaced swirls muddling the two like with the undying (who occupy a space of muddled immortality). The Faceless might worship the "black side" (death), but the fact that the white is represented equally, and in harmony tells us that they see a complementary (not in opposition) existence between life and death, despite the fact that they are clearly separate.

[Mithras]

I wasn't disagreeing with the fact that Martin connects the concepts of "consuming" and "devouring" with fire.

I'm trying to see how you're envisioning this connection with the 1st head of Trios specifically. Is your thought that the Tyroshi personified fire thusly? Like their own spin on R'hllor, where you die, then are reborn in the Light of the Lord?

Or are you suggesting that the Faceless believe that death is actually "fire"?

Or are you suggesting that Martin is using "devour" and "fire" interchangeably in any context?

The Many Faced God assumes the identity of the god of death in every religion according to the FM. He is referred to as the Stranger, not any other facet of the Seven. In the case of Trios, it can be said that three heads represent the three aspects of a single god but each aspect might be considered as a deity of its own. I think the first head of Trios is the god of death with the said symbolism between fire and devouring. We do not know much about Trios or the religious practices of the Tyroshi. Such a connection between Rhlorr and Trios is only a speculation but it may come in the future. Moqorro and Mel were quick to tag other deities as the servants of the Great Other. Perhaps they will call such tameable deities as the servants of Rhlorr, of course for political purposes I guess.

I don't think the FM associate death with fire. The KM talked about the "cold cup".

I think it is evident that George has some connection between fire and devouring in his mind. It maynot be something significant. Perhaps only a figurative speech but it is there, worth considering.

[Black Crow]

Ah, now I remember. Could the cave below the weirwood grove be the Heart of Winter?

I suppose it depends how you look at it, but I'm still of the belief that the Heart of Winter isn't to be found in geography but is analagous with the Heart of Darkness

[Black Crow]

Just a gentle reminder boys and girls, this thread is about weirwoods and everything that goes with them. Coming up soon we have a whole thread devoted to the Faceless Men and other denizens [magical or otherwise] of Essos.

[alienarea]

This is a little crackpot:

We know that a skinchanger/warg who spends the second life in his/her (btw have we seen female skinchangers/wargs except for Arya?) animal gets absorbed into the animal over time.

We also have the warning of Haggon (sp?) that the characteristics of the animal feed back into the skinchanger/warg over time.

Now if the greenseer "skinchanges" with weirwoods, the weirwood character would become part of the greenseer.

This is not a problem as long as the greenseer lives out his/her life. But what if the weirwood dies first and the greenseer stays alive?

Assume the long night was a deep impact. A number of weirwoods die from the cold because their survivor genes had been moved into the greenseers. Now those greenseers are free to roam again. And because they have been betrayed by humans and CotF and married to the trees they now hate all life [watch out, Brandon Stark!]. They are few in numbers, but since they know most to all magic they can raise the dead to fight for them.

And when they are defeated and killed, their seeds remain. To rise again about 8,000 years later.

Because what is dead ...

[yes, I'm crazy]

[Mithras]

How about the Whitetree? Wildlings burned their dead and put their ashes and bones into the mouth of that giant tree. What does it supposed to mean?

[Black Crow]

Because what is dead ...

[yes, I'm crazy]

I'd be inclined to think it works slightly differently, although its perhaps a matter of degree.

We've spoken in the past of a skinchanging gene, but it might be better to identify it as a roaming gene. Ordinarily when someone pops their clogs that's it. They are dead as mutton and their spirit sleeps within the bones until even they crumble and leach into the earth.

The spirits of those with the roaming gene however are not tied to their bodies but can roam to various degrees, as white walkers, as skinchangers, as wargs and ultimately as greenseers depending on how powerful the roaming gene might be. We don't know what happens when a white walker is slain, but I'd suspect that the spirit is destroyed with the body of ice and snow and cold; skinchangers are gradually taken over by their hosts and the same may be true of wargs although the partnership may allow for the warg to take over the host rather than the other way around.

The greenseers are the interesting ones though, because although the roaming gene allows them to skinchange or warg animals it would appear to primarily be aimed at going into the weirwood. There we're told they live long - and thus far it would appear none have lived long enough to say how long - if you know what I mean.

The problem would then appear to arise not with the fading of the greenseer's spirit, although that may be a possibility, but with the destruction of the host, ie; the weirwood. However where I diverge from Alienarea is in what happens next. Burning I think is fatal, destroying both host and roamer, but when a tree is otherwise killed or cut down I think we have to look at the possibility of the spirit sleeping within and capable of being awakened again.

Now moving on a little from there I would suggest that we are indeed looking at some kind of symbiosis and that the roaming gene doesn't come from the children of the forest, but from the forest itself; from the weirwoods and that the whole purpose of the gene is not to give murderous perverts like Varamyr the opportunity to laugh dance and sing, but to graft an intelligence into the trees, which is why they display the faces of those so grafted.

[Eira Seren]

. . .

I confess that this is how I've long imagined the Green Men of Martin's text: as something closer to the heart trees or greenseers than the more traditional figure. I had not necessarily made the direct connection to the Black Gate - but that is a tempting idea. The Black Gate is one of the topics that I felt most remiss in omitting from my OP... and while I know Heresy has considered it from other angles, from the perspective of its weirwood nature it probably deserves a closer look. Really, it would be difficult to overstate just how different that particular weirwood face is from any other we've seen: it's huge, it's animated, and it could add significant layers of meaning to what we know based just on the more "typical" carved faces. For instance, if the sacrifices made in the mouth of the "monstrous" Whitewood tree are to be taken as indicative... then the idea that Bran himself serves as a "sacrifice" looks rather clearly supported by the fact that he (with Jojen, Meera, and Hodor) passes literally into the mouth of the Black Gate to achieve passage between the realms. And Jojen's response to Sam's recognition of Bran (just prior to their descent) correspondingly takes on the tenor of ritual: "That boy is dead," he says, just before leading Bran to the giant weirwood mouth.

. . .

Meanwhile, there might be another way you could go with this entirely. According to Lord Brynden, weirwoods "live forever if left undisturbed," and the current Lord Blackwood reports that they do not rot but turn to stone. So what if the weirwoods are, essentially, living stone? The very bones of the earth? They don't leave Westeros, because they ARE Westeros... living manifestations of the continent itself? And if it makes any sense at all to consider that possibility, then it may be worth wondering whether it's not the weirwoods that were shaped by the COTF and (eventually) the FM... but rather, the other way 'round...

I don't remember what I was going to say to these, but found it very thought-provoking. It'll come back to me in the middle of the night.

Fabulous compendium, Snowfyre Chorus!!! You have dazzled me! So much to digest and ponder, so for now I'll just respond to a tiny piece.

I‘m not entirely sure there aren’t weirwoods in Essos. We’ve seen a seemingly related species growing around the House of the Undying, with black bark and dark purple leaves. This tree is the source of the psychedelic/magical beverage “shade of the evening” imbibed by warlocks and Euron Greyjoy. There’s also this reference in the wiki:

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Quote:

Kingdom of the Ifequevron

(Redirected from Ifequevron)

The Kingdom of the Ifequevron^[1] or Kingdoms of the Ifeqevron^[2] is a forested region of northern Essos along the Shivering Sea.^[2]Omber and the Bay of Tusks are to the west, while the Kingdom of Sarnor is to the southwest. East of the forest are the Realm of Jhogwin and the Krazaaj Zasqa. The Dothraki sea and Vaes Dothrak are to the south; a river from the Womb of the World by Vaes Dothrak runs through the kingdom to the Shivering Sea. East of the forest are the Ibbenese city New Ibbish and the ruins of Vaes Aresak (Ibbish).^[2]

History

Ifequevron, meaning "wood walkers", is the Dothraki language name for a people who once lived in the forest. Located on a small western peninsula, Vaes Leisi is a ruined settlement of carved trees and haunted grottoes.^[1]

Behind the Scenes

The Kingdom of the Ifequevron has not yet been mentioned in the A Song of Ice and Fire novels, only appearing in The Lands of Ice and Fire and A World of Ice and Fire.

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So my guess is that the Essosi variety of the CotF are thought to be extinct, and the black & purple trees in the HotU garden are a remnant of what used to be their version of weirwoods. Whether the Undying are/were the only ones "inhabiting" these trees recently, or even if they are/were aware of the way the weirnet works, I cannot say. But those trees are too freaky to leave out of the equation.

ETA: HotU garden

Well what do you know? That's a good find!

I did not get the sense of Varamyr being "spit out", but rather he passed through. I agree with the thought that you have to be wed to the trees in order to stay connected.

Me too. Though I like the idea of the tree rejecting Varamyr in such an undignified fashion.

The business of "wedding" Bran [and presumably Bloodraven before him] to the trees might be a clue here.

There was that remark earlier by Greatjon Umber about wedding the Dragons. Now granted he was talking in the context of kneeling to the Targaryens, but I wonder if there's actually a deeper significance. There's been a lot of talk from time to time about Ice Dragons and speculation that there really is one somewhere which will be as a counter in some way to the Fire Dragons, but it may actually be the case that the weirwoods are the Westerosi equivalent of dragons.

Both have been woken from stone at about the same time and are at the centre of the magic.

Not that I want to give up working full time, but I do miss having more time for these mind-blowing bits. You know, those dragon eggs had to have a long memory (and a long shelf-life) in order to hatch again. This is a nice one!

. . .

Thanks, redriver. And good question. I wonder if there are separate but complementary magical roles being played here by offerings of (1) blood, and (2) bone. Blood containing and representing life; bone containing and representing knowledge or memory? We are told that the bones remember, but transactions of bloodmagic are required to pay for life...

Thanks, Eira! That's a nice tie-in there about the role of the best man, and expectations with respect to marriage consummation. That is not something I was familiar with, but it does remind me very much of the connection drawn between the heart tree and the septon (as witness and officiant) in a couple of the excerpts I quoted in the OP(s). Actually, the "septon" analogy was one of several roles I separated out in my notes early in my essay prep, and which was eventually subsumed into the idea of a "mediator" between realms (for the septon/priest, those would be the realms of the holy and the mundane, or sacred and profane). It's not difficult at all to draw together images of the tree, the gods, the septon/priest and the king in Martin's text - and doing so, we really might end up with a rough sketch of ancient Celtic priest-king traditions, in Martinian terms.

You said it best :cheers:

As for breaking down the contributions of both blood and bone, it never occurred to me, but I like it.

Could it be as simple as the trees needing faces/eyes to be able to have greenseers see out from within them ? If a greenseer take the skin of a bird, obv they can see. Same for a toad or a wolf or a deer but if a greenseer connects to a tree with no eyes how can they see out of it ?

I agree completely with the idea that the introduction of men into the weirnet caused a change. The will of man is indomitable and if the link between skinchanger and familiar has a "merging" effect (with each party gaining some of the others attributes) why shouldn't the link between greenseer and tree do the same ?

Possibly. I also see it more as the human need to depict a godlike figure in a familiar image. Hence the Christian idea that man was created in God's image may also be more reflective of the people who converted than scripture suggests it ought to . . . many of the medieval and renaissance paintings portray God, Mary and Jesus very much like a European. . . :) So the faces in the wierwoods are made to look human because it helps the First Men feel more comfortable in their new religion?

ETA: on the other hand, I like your idea Black Crow, that the forest is contributing something significant as part of the exchange between species.

[TheButcherCrow]

Possibly. I also see it more as the human need to depict a godlike figure in a familiar image. Hence the Christian idea that man was created in God's image may also be more reflective of the people who converted than scripture suggests it ought to . . . many of the medieval and renaissance paintings portray God, Mary and Jesus very much like a European. . . :) So the faces in the wierwoods are made to look human because it helps the First Men feel more comfortable in their new religion?

ETA: on the other hand, I like your idea Black Crow, that the forest is contributing something significant as part of the exchange between species.

The irony being that in Westeros, the FM may have literally created gods in their own image. That is to say, no gods truly existed prior to the introduction of human greenseers into the weirwoods but that act in effect created actual, god-like beings.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Maybe they is gods and maybe they ain't. Maester Luwin states the Children believed they were gods. Leaf states that the gods made them. So I don't know if men ever thought the weirwoods were actually gods. The power behind them yes. No, I don't think the Singers think of the the greenseers as gods. Could they believe the trees are the gods?

The faces in the trees - if the weirwoods came before the Singers, maybe the ravens were the first to link with them and the first eyes for the first greenseers. That is until the trees had eyes?

[addicted to snow]

The irony being that in Westeros, the FM may have literally created gods in their own image. That is to say, no gods truly existed prior to the introduction of human greenseers into the weirwoods but that act in effect created actual, god-like beings.

I don't know, I think that the Weirnet existed prior to the FM… the Children of the Forest were obviously tapped into this system and able to utilize the trees as a means of collecting reconnaissance if nothing else. The books also suggest that the Weirnet was likely used by the CotF as a means of communicating across great distances (as we see Bran communicate with Theon) & as the Greyjoy Girl suggest, it is also possible that the CotF Greenseers animated the trees to directly fight against the First Men...

I believe that the CotF were tapped into the trees long before man came along & got into the mix… Only after the Pact was man able to utilize the Weirnet...

[Hrafntýr]

Maybe they is gods and maybe they ain't. Maester Luwin states the Children believed they were gods. Leaf states that the gods made them. So I don't know if men ever thought the weirwoods were actually gods. The power behind them yes. No, I don't think the Singers think of the the greenseers as gods. Could they believe the trees are the gods?

The faces in the trees - if the weirwoods came before the Singers, maybe the ravens were the first to link with them and the first eyes for the first greenseers. That is until the trees had eyes?

There's Jojen's statement, too: "Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods."

There's also that utterly anomalous line of Roose's, at the wedding of Ramsay and fArya, "Who comes before the god?" It's so strange that I sometimes even wonder if it was a typo. It vexes me to no end.

[TheButcherCrow]

I don't know, I think that the Weirnet existed prior to the FM… the Children of the Forest were obviously tapped into this system and able to utilize the trees as a means of collecting reconnaissance if nothing else. The books also suggest that the Weirnet was likely used by the CotF as a means of communicating across great distances (as we see Bran communicate with Theon) & as the Greyjoy Girl suggest, it is also possible that the CotF Greenseers animated the trees to directly fight against the First Men...

I believe that the CotF were tapped into the trees long before man came along & got into the mix… Only after the Pact was man able to utilize the Weirnet...

I don't disagree. However the author does point out a difference between the will of humans and singers. Undoubtedly the cotf used the trees to communicate and to record but was that the extent of what they were able to do ? Is this perhaps why the seemingly huge advantage the cotf had with their control of the weirnet hasn't seemed to do them much good ? Perhaps it was only the will of man that allowed the weirnet to become "weaponized" ?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

There's Jojen's statement, too: "Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods."

There's also that utterly anomalous line of Roose's, at the wedding of Ramsay and fArya, "Who comes before the god?" It's so strange that I sometimes even wonder if it was a typo. It vexes me to no end.

Yes it is perplexing. The god. Does Roose believe this is the god of winterfell? As in the seer and/or provider of the Starks? It is an interesting statement.