Ser Eric Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Until proven otherwise, Joffrey is the rightful King. Stannis is legally an usurper. No, he's not. Joffrey is a bastard. Whether anyone knows that or not is irrelevant. Stannis knows that and by extension he was the heir not Joffrey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrhex Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Cersei isn't a Baratheon And that's somehow not killing your nephews' mom because you want to replace her power hungry family with another? His thoughts on what to do with people with a better claim who stand in your way are shown clearly in his quotes. Killing Joffrey is reasonable.If was perfectly willing to accept Stannis joining him, despite him having a "Better claim".The Targaryen kids were out of reach and free to rebel and be a detriment to the realm, the same wouldn't be true of captive Tommen and Myrcella. Killing his nephew because he stands in his way? He was willing to accept Stannis because he thought he would bend the knee. He treats him as a rebel for defying his clear and self-declared powergrab that Renly is trying to pull. Right of Conquest is retroactive. Renly is still a traitor and a rebel before winning by right of I-have-an-army. The Targ kids he felt was a mistake, and that they should have died long ago. Even when they were broke and homeless, they are still a threat. To think that he would keep them alive is willful blindness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Look, Renly didn't know about the incest so he should not have rebelled against someone who he thought was his brothers heir, no matter what, and if you insist on giving him a free pass for rebelling against Joffrey, fair enough, but that doesn't explain why he didn't declare for Tommen.He rebelled against Joff because both him and his regent, his mom, are nuts and have a grudge against himBecause one doesn't wage war on someone's brother, mother, and grandfather and then seat them as king.Moreover, he needed the Tyrells and cannot do that without crowning her as queen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Look, Renly didn't know about the incest so he should not have rebelled against someone who he thought was his brothers heir, no matter what, and if you insist on giving him a free pass for rebelling against Joffrey, fair enough, but that doesn't explain why he didn't declare for Tommen. Because giving so much power to someone who might very well hold a grudge against you for killing his mother (very likely) and brother (very unlikely) is utterly stupid. And because the Tyrells want something out of the whole ordeal, you can't very well organize a marriage for Tommen while he isn't in your custody and officially on the other side of the conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 No, he's not. Joffrey is a bastard. Whether anyone knows that or not is irrelevant. Stannis knows that and by extension he was the heir not Joffrey. There is no proof of Joffrey's bastardy, and Robert recognized him as his son. Legally, Joffrey is not a bastard. And doesn't "know", he "thinks" Joffrey is a bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Renly did more to protect Robert than Stannis did. Usurping Stannis was wrong and I hate that they didn't work together but I got sympathy for Renlt for actually doing something rather than brooding on Dragonstone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salafi Stannis Posted August 28, 2014 Author Share Posted August 28, 2014 If all it takes for illegitimacy is the word of a Great Council, pretty sure Stannis could be easily brushed over considering he's a heretic and that the right to rule is highly implied to be of divine nature. (As we can see with Aegon only recognizing himself King when he receives the High Septon's blessing) There were only two people ahead of Aegon V in the line of succession, Aerion's son, who was passed over because he was born while his father was in exile and thus had no claim, and Daeron's daughter who was feeble witted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 There is no proof of Joffrey's bastardy, and Robert recognized him as his son. Legally, Joffrey is not a bastard. And doesn't "know", he "thinks" Joffrey is a bastard. He knows Joffrey is a bastard. We know Joffrey is a bastard. Ergo, Stannis is not an usurper but in fact the rightful and lawful king. Plan and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 He knows Joffrey is a bastard. We know Joffrey is a bastard. Ergo, Stannis is not an usurper but in fact the rightful and lawful king. Plan and simple. A rebellion is always legal in the first person, such as "our rebellion." It is only in the third person - "their rebellion" - that it becomes illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 ..... What does this have to do with anything? Renly is rebelling against the throne. Robb and Balon are rebelling against the throne. Stannis is claiming what is rightfully and lawfully his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 What does this have to do with anything? Renly is rebelling against the throne. Robb and Balon are rebelling against the throne. Stannis is claiming what is rightfully and lawfully his. He needs proof to have certainty that the throne is legally is, and he doesn't have any. It won't be legally his until he takes the Throne and says so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 He needs proof to have certainty that the throne is legally is, and he doesn't have any. It won't be legally his until he takes the Throne and says so. He did find proof with the book and the bastards. Joffrey is a bastard which legally makes Stannis is heir. I am not sure why this is even up for debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 He did find proof with the book and the bastards. Joffrey is a bastard which legally makes Stannis is heir. I am not sure why this is even up for debate. 1) Stannis doesn't know about the book as far as we know, he sure as hell never brings it up 2) The Bastards don't prove anything without the book Stannis isn't omniscient, he doesn't know everything Eddard, Jon Arryn, or the read knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Urgandy Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Aside from maybe Balon, Renly really was the biggest usurper of them all, thats pretty much non-debateable. He left Eddard and his men to get slaughtered, pretty much non-debateable. And Tyrion Lannister sums it up best, "I doubt Renly Baratheon ever repented anything in his life." His attitude to family, and killing children and other things show that he is not a very nice man, but he could have been a good King, since he was a clever enough arsehole to at least pretend to be nice. Still, it doesn't matter, he did what he felt he had to do/what he wanted to do and went for a greedy power grab, and now he is dead. Same goes for Robb who is far more sympathetic, Joffrey who is less so and Balon who falls into Joffrey's category. Renly leaves no legacy and in the wise words of Hyle Hunt "nobody cares about Renly anymore." He was a fairly shallow man who died a fairly shallow death, he could've wrapped up the war in weeks, or it still could've dragged on for years (lets not underestimate Tywin Lannister and changing political climes, ever). In short, whatever way you look at it, he was a usurper who let Eddard Stark down and now he is dead. Not really sure why there is so much debate about him. The War of 5 Kings saw 5 men who didn't really see the bigger picture having a petty squabble and ruining everything, Renly, Stannis, Robb, Joffrey and Balon all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 1) Stannis doesn't know about the book as far as we know, he sure as hell never brings it up 2) The Bastards don't prove anything without the book Stannis isn't omniscient, he doesn't know everything Eddard, Jon Arryn, or the read knows. 1. Stannis was working with Jon Arryn. In fact, it was Stannis who first figured out the incest. Stannis went with Jon Arryn to look at the bastards. He knows about the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 1. Stannis was working with Jon Arryn. In fact, it was Stannis who first figured out the incest. Stannis went with Jon Stannis never figured out the incest, he suspected it. Jon found the book, studied the book, and found "The seed is strong". Considering Stannis never mentions any of this despite it helping his cause greatly, he doesn't know. In fact, in ACoK, when Cat asks him for proof of Joffrey's bastardy, Stannis's response is basically "I don't have any, but Jon Arryn did." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Wedding Cake Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Myrcella seems like she would be a very capapble ruler I think she'd have problems lending an ear to the royal council. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Stannis never figured out the incest, he suspected it. Jon found the book, studied the book, and found "The seed is strong". Considering Stannis never mentions any of this despite it helping his cause greatly, he doesn't know. In fact, in ACoK, when Cat asks him for proof of Joffrey's bastardy, Stannis's response is basically "I don't have any, but Jon Arryn did." I don't think this is brought up enough, Stannis' didn't get a direct confession from Cersei like Ned did. He doesn't actually know they are bastards born of incest like the readers and Ned do. His evidence is ridicuolous and when he sends his letter without a shred of actual proof of course no one believes him, albeit that could be because no one likes or cares about him playing a large factor. I think he wants to believe it so bad because when Robert dies he has an excuse to take the IT and that is why he leaves Robert to the lions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Joffery is a bastard. That is a fact. Deal with it. Renly wanted to play king, usurped his brother and got exactly what he deserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 How did Renly let Ned down? Because he didnt follow his suicidal path? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.