Stop apologising for Renly

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Renly trying to usurp power from Joffrey and Cersei is kind of understandable thing, not backing his brother and not trying to cooperate with him isn't. Of course most of the bad things that happened, especially in regards to the success of their enemies wouldn't have happened if all three Baratheon brothers liked each other more and cooperated more. Even back in GOT.

As for Tommen ruling, that might take decades or never happen if Joffrey has an heir before he dies, even with Joffrey dead Tommen wasn't the one who did the ruling after all. And Cersei who as we know from her own words wanted to take care of Robert's brothers and Joffrey are a threat to Renly.

All that being said it is obvious he has a power hungry motive as well.

And who knows he might have been still alive if he cooperated with Stannis from the start and supported him for king while trying to act as a mediator between the Tyrells and Stannis and even promising them more territory and a larger presence and trying to get them the best deal possible. Stannis doesn't have the most flexible reputation but he did in several cases bend some of his principles for the sake of his final goal. (Melisandre and especially with him thinking of sacrificing an inoccent boy being that. Or accepting Renly's men who were previously against him). So with some push I can see the possibility for Stannis giving something to the Tyrells.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Renly didn't know about the incest/illegitimacy. That's what makes it even worse.

We don't have proof that he in fact didn't know, as we don't have his PoV. If he admits it, many would consider Stannis the real heir of Robert. But if it is not, then he's just a bitter enough to make up lies.

[Mithras]

Renly trying to usurp power from Joffrey and Cersei is kind of understandable thing, not backing his brother and not trying to cooperate with him isn't.

Renly had the support of Tyrells and the Tyrells fear the retribution of Stannis. They absolutely do not want him as the king. Tyrell swords only come with Margaery being the queen. It was the folly of Stannis to not join Renly, let alone come and lay siege to his castle.

Renly didnot start as a Usurper. He tried to make Robert set Cersei aside and marry Margaery. He did it for House Baratheon and his own holding in Storm's End because the growing Lannister threat was directed at him mostly. The Lannisters would certainly take Storm's End from Renly after Robert's death. A king can take what another king gave just as easily and legally speaking, Joffrey had a better claim to Storm's End than Renly or Stannis.

This was the problem of Renly. He desperately needed to eliminate the Lannister power in order to save his own skin. After Robert's death, he tried to make a deal with Ned and that was a good plan too. The power lies with the monarchs and all they needed to do was to grab the kids and grab the power. Once Ned disagreed, he fled to save his life.

Stannis was missing this whole time and Renly had no option to stay alive unless he pressed his own claim and marry Margaery in order to get the Tyrell swords he needed.

Stannis is not a compromising type, in case you didnot notice.

[Malik Ambar]

Renly was a dick, but then which baratheon wasn't?

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Renly had the support of Tyrells and the Tyrells fear the retribution of Stannis. They absolutely do not want him as the king. Tyrell swords only come with Margaery being the queen. It was the folly of Stannis to not join Renly, let alone come and lay siege to his castle.

Renly didnot start as a Usurper. He tried to make Robert set Cersei aside and marry Margaery. He did it for House Baratheon and his own holding in Storm's End because the growing Lannister threat was directed at him mostly. The Lannisters would certainly take Storm's End from Renly after Robert's death. A king can take what another king gave just as easily and legally speaking, Joffrey had a better claim to Storm's End than Renly or Stannis.

This was the problem of Renly. He desperately needed to eliminate the Lannister power in order to save his own skin. After Robert's death, he tried to make a deal with Ned and that was a good plan too. The power lies with the monarchs and all they needed to do was to grab the kids and grab the power. Once Ned disagreed, he fled to save his life.

Stannis was missing this whole time and Renly had no option to stay alive unless he pressed his own claim and marry Margaery in roder to get the Tyrell swords he needed.

Stannis is not a compromising type, in case you didnot notice.

While Stannis is famed as non compromising we do see him compromise for the sake of winning and the Tyrells in this example of not fighting him in the current war only fought against him in the past in a war Stannis thought hard about which side to back between his king and his blood.

Stannis accepts the Renly troops who fought against him previously (and he doesn't reject any house from the Reach who is willing to join him), even asks for Renly to bow to himself, thinks of killing an inoccent child which goes against his morality and even hires pirates and as an atheist hires Melisandre to win. I think in the circumstances of Renly communicating with Stannis and telling him of intentions to go against the Lannisters and proclaim Stannis king and act as mediator between the Tyrells and Stannis there is room for Tyrells in a Stannis government.

So Stannis is not compromising when it comes to winning and becoming king of all westeros and less on how to do so. Indeed he shows that he will usually do whatever he finds as necessary whether he likes it or not to achieve that objective and in the process we have seen him cooperate with a variety of people he doesn't particularly like. The Tyrell armies are a pretty big incentive for Stannis.

Of course Stannis should have communicated more with Renly too and earlier. And Robert. And same with Robert and Stannis communicating and cooperating more.

[JoeyBanana]

Six pages and nobody mentions that Stannis tried to take Storm's End from Renly?

Robert gave it to Renly and it was his by rights. How dare Stannis usurp his brother's rightful castle and lordship and bannermen.

Not to mention that Renly declared himself King first and there was no way for him to back out, not without losing Tyrell support (and pissing them off in the process, too i imagine, since he may have consumed marriage with Margy already, for all we know)

Besides, he offered Stannis a peach and Storm's End to resolve their conflict. And what was Stan's pitch? All he did was promise Renly his own banana. Oh it gets better. It's the very same banana that they're having a parley over since Stan is attempting to take it despite Robert explicitly stating: "Renly gets the banana, dude, let it go."

[James Arryn]

Just saw this thread! Awesome! Will post more tomorrow, but for now I'll give a taste:

...after the so-called justice was done and the great and good men dead, all at the hands of a Mad King, and in realistic fear for his life, R____ Baratheon rose up in Rebellion, with allies bonded by marriage, and sought to take by force the Iron Throne, even if by rights several relatives stood between it and him who had better claim and were not responsible for their King's madness. Some called it justice, some were just happy to have a young, popular and sane King backed by powerful Houses. Others whispered about the relatives between R____ Targaryan and the throne, and ought they not have been more legal options, but they were only heard by a few. This was self-preservation, not pageantry, they were answered, and Westeros is better for it...

[Sullen]

We don't have proof that he in fact didn't know, as we don't have his PoV. If he admits it, many would consider Stannis the real heir of Robert. But if it is not, then he's just a bitter enough to make up lies.

If he did know, I can hardly see him expecting Stannis to join him. And he very much was expecting just that, before Stannis attacked him, as he counts Stannis as being one of his own when he enumerates his forces to Cat.

[Sullen]

So Stannis is not compromising when it comes to winning and becoming king of all westeros and less on how to do so. Indeed he shows that he will usually do whatever he finds as necessary whether he likes it or not to achieve that objective and in the process we have seen him cooperate with a variety of people he doesn't particularly like. The Tyrell armies are a pretty big incentive for Stannis.

Of course Stannis should have communicated more with Renly too and earlier. And Robert. And same with Robert and Stannis communicating and cooperating more.

Thing is, Stannis can't win the support of the Tyrells, ever.

The Siege of Storm's End left them bitter one for the other, and there is nothing that Stannis can offer that Renly, or the Lannisters, or Aegon once he lands, can't offer as well.(And in many cases even double)

Renly wanted the Lannisters out, for that, he needed the Tyrells, and the Tyrells would have no Stannis.

[Ser Eric]

Just saw this thread! Awesome! Will post more tomorrow, but for now I'll give a taste:

...after the so-called justice was done and the great and good men dead, all at the hands of a Mad King, and in realistic fear for his life, R____ Baratheon rose up in Rebellion, with allies bonded by marriage, and sought to take by force the Iron Throne, even if by rights several relatives stood between it and him who had better claim and were not responsible for their King's madness. Some called it justice, some were just happy to have a young, popular and sane King backed by powerful Houses. Others whispered about the relatives between R____ Targaryan and the throne, and ought they not have been more legal options, but they were only heard by a few. This was self-preservation, not pageantry, they were answered, and Westeros is better for it...

Nope. Two entirely different scenarios.

[Game Of Thrones]

Renly was a dick, but then which baratheon wasn't?

Shireen. Steffon. Orys.

[Game Of Thrones]

Nope. Two entirely different scenarios.

Nope. Renly was totally about to be killed. Besides, everyone knows Stannis stole the girl Renly was betrothed to.

[James Arryn]

Nope. Two entirely different scenarios.

What two scenarios are you talking about? I wrote one. Is it one of the 2 you're talking about, and if so, which one?

[Mithras]

While Stannis is famed as non compromising we do see him compromise for the sake of winning and the Tyrells in this example of not fighting him in the current war only fought against him in the past in a war Stannis thought hard about which side to back between his king and his blood.

The character of Stannis is not unknown. He is famous for his harsh, unforgiving, unforgetting and unyielding nature. Tyrells have absolutely no reason to declare for Stannis and Stannis has nothing to offer to them, except punishment for their siege in the past.

According to Renly, Stannis is another pretender who defies the rightful king and worse, he does not have the power to overthrow the king. So, why should Renly set his claim aside, lose the Tyrells and join Stannis to die together?

[Nyrhex]

If he did know, I can hardly see him expecting Stannis to join him. And he very much was expecting just that, before Stannis attacked him, as he counts Stannis as being one of his own when he enumerates his forces to Cat.

He tells Catelyn at Bitterbridge that he expects Stannis to join him. That is after Renly passed through Horn Hill, where he saw Stannis' letter where he proclaims himself king. Renly also assumed that Dorne would join him, while GRRM specifically said that Doran did not join Renly as he did not consider him a winner, nor did he want the fucking Tyrells on the throne. Renly assumed that Robb would bend the knee to him, when Robb had already refused it when his lords offered it, and opted to become independent. Renly was delusional that having a large army means everyone is going to bend the knee and all he would need do is take a lightly held city.

[James Arryn]

The character of Stannis is not unknown. He is famous for his harsh, unforgiving, unforgetting and unyielding nature. Tyrells have absolutely no reason to declare for Stannis and Stannis has nothing to give them, except punishment for their siege in the past.

According to Renly, Stannis is another pretender who defies the rightful king and worse, he does not have the power to overthrow the king. So, why should Renly set his claim aside, lose the Tyrells and join Stannis to die together?

Because it's his duty, even if it risks his life.

Unless of course he's Stannis fearing he'll meet the same fate as Jon Arryn, at which point obviously duty comes second to self-preservation, let's not be silly about this, and he ought to high-tail it out to DS without a word to anyone...and of course if he felt in enough danger he could continue to shirk his duty for a year or 2, not respond to royal summons, not appear at Council, and leave his brother in mortal danger.

But if that Brother ever died...well, obviously Renly should feel terrible and mention often how guilty he feels for leaving his brother/King to die. Or alternatively he could insult that brother whenever he mentions him, rant about how poorly he was treated by him, and such...

These things are complicated, PW. First, as Reek says, you need to know your name. If it's Stannis, then the rules work one way. If it's Renly, they work another. Confusing stuff.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

The character of Stannis is not unknown. He is famous for his harsh, unforgiving, unforgetting and unyielding nature. Tyrells have absolutely no reason to declare for Stannis and Stannis has nothing to offer to them, except punishment for their siege in the past.

According to Renly, Stannis is another pretender who defies the rightful king and worse, he does not have the power to overthrow the king. So, why should Renly set his claim aside, lose the Tyrells and join Stannis to die together?

Because Stannis is his brother, has a superior claim to the throne if the Lannisters are set aside, and especially with the incest reasoning, commands five thousands army, has a sorceress, and is someone who is determined to fight till the end to win by any means necessary and is a common ally against the Lannisters. Focusing one one enemy the Lannisters is superior and also not being forced into a scenario in which you might have to kill your brother is very much important. Stronger together than divided because Renly wants to be king. Also this is to happen before Renly proclaims himself king, backing Stannis the older brother for the throne, and being a mediator between the Tyrells and him. So the result would be united force instead of enemies. But he does have the choice to back his brother when he calls himself king of course as well.

Also the character of Stannis as we know him is that he is willing to compromise to achieve his not compromise goal for which he is unyielding, yeah including in the first book leaving King's Landing. Certainly, justifying Renly's action by the rhetoric that Stannis didn't do his duty fully either towards his king Robert is trying to justify one wrong with another. Justifying self destructive lack of communication and cooperation on wrong fame, simply justifies a mistake and a lack of proper communication and simply of ignorance about Stannis. For which Stannis also holds some responsibility.

Actually getting in bed with the likes of Joffrey and Cersei was a worse deal for the Tyrells than cooperating with Stannis even if he would seemingly offer them less, he wouldn't give them madness.

[Ser Eric]

What two scenarios are you talking about? I wrote one. Is it one of the 2 you're talking about, and if so, which one?

You were trying to be clever. you failed.

[James Arryn]

You were trying to be clever. you failed.

I think you're proving my point, actually. I wrote one scenario. You read 2.

[Minsc]

Stronger together than divided because Renly wants to be king. Also this is to happen before Renly proclaims himself king, backing Stannis the older brother for the throne, and being a mediator between the Tyrells and him. So the result would be united force instead of enemies. But he does have the choice to back his brother when he calls himself king of course as well.

Actually they are stronger with Renly being king, in how that grants them (and not the Lannisters) the Tyrells. In how, Mace isn't going to support Stannis and his Florent wife for the throne.