A Guide to Deciphering Posters' Comments

[Hodor's Dragon]

Since we're throwing around definitions:

http://www.how-to-write-a-book-now.com/rules-regarding-filler-in-a-story.html

The definition of filler is material that is not integral to the reader's appreciation of the story's meaning. It is material that is not part of a story arc, whether that is the overall plot, the main character's growth, or the other throughlines.

Wait. Let's be clear about exactly what we're talking about here.

That is not "The definition of filler." That is what some guy named "Paige" running a website called "Write A Book Now" says is the definition of filler. No link, no cite. I don't know who the hell he is; although his website looks pretty decent, he ain't the be-all and end-all of literary definitions.

I disagree with his definition, and strenuously. That definition significantly expands the meaning of the word and denigrates material that enhances the depth of a character or the author's depiction of the fictional world.

The word "filler" refers to material that is inserted to hit the proper length in a timed show, such as a TV episode, or into something like a recurring periodical article that is supposed to have X number of words. Unlike Paige, I'm going to treat you to some links:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/filler

e : material used to fill extra space in a column or page of a newspaper or magazine or to increase the size of a work (as a book)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/filler

Journalism. material, considered of secondary importance, used to fillout a column or page.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/filler

An item serving only to fill space or time, especially in a newspaper, broadcast, or recording.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filler_(media)

Television[edit]

In the early days of television, most output was live. The hours of broadcast were limited and so, for test purposes, a test card was commonly broadcast at other times. When a breakdown happened during a live broadcast, a standard recording would be used to fill in. On the BBC, a film of a potter's wheel was often used for this purpose, filmed at the Compton Potters' Arts Guild.^[1] Similar short films, such as a kitten playing, were also used as interludes or interstitial programs to fill gaps in TV schedules. In the US, these have their roots in the old Saturday afternoon horror movies hosted on independent stations.^[2]

Music albums[edit]

Albums of music were typically of a set size determined by the physical medium such as the vinyl record (typically 22 minutes per side^[3]) or CD (maximum 80 minutes^[4]). It was normal, especially in the 1960s, for artists to attempt to "pad out" their material to the standard length by including filler tracks of lesser quality.^{[citation needed]}

Often songs written by the artists or the producer of an album were included as filler and/or released on the b-side of singles to generate more royalties for the songwriter or artist.^{[citation needed]}

Cover versions are often considered to be fillers, though this judgement varies with the amount of creative interpretation and adaption of the original.^[5] Similarly, live recordings, demo versions or remixes follow the same argument.

On the subject of music downloads, Courtney Love told the Digital Hollywood conference "If you're afraid of your own filler then I bet you're afraid of Napster",^[6] meaning that other artists may be afraid of listeners being able to listen to a full album before buying it.

There is nothing in ASOIAF that is designed to increase the length of the work. The very idea is absurd. The work is already too long to be ideal commercial material.

Everything in ASOIAF is meant to add depth and meaning to the story. Every. Single. Word.

PEOPLE, YOU ARE USING THE WORD "FILLER" INCORRECTLY.

[Hrafntýr]

My opinion is that of course ASoIaF has filler in it. 5 books into a 7 book series and you can see that there are too may threads hanging loose. Now, if Martin reaches the end of this story and has made all 2000+ characters completely necessary and relavant to the plot, then I will bow down and change my mind. Until then, I reserve my criticism that he let the story get too big and out of hand in AFFC/ADWD...even with those characters that I liked. The series should be judged as a whole, but the books must be judged on their own, as well. You can't say "Well, wait till the next book before criticizing/praising this book!" because it's supposed to stand on its own as a chapter in that story. If it can't, then it has a fault.

I was suggesting above that "plot" is only one element of storytelling; for some readers, and in some works of literature, it's not even the most important one. Even your reference source "Paige" lists other elements that are part of "the reader's appreciation of the story's meaning," things like character growth and "events that are essential to the story's thematic message (even if they are separate from the main plot)." Take another pov-structured novel, As I Lay Dying: Is Vardaman's chapter, "My mother is a fish" integral to the development of the plot? Probably not, depending of course upon how one understands "plot." But it's essential to Faulkner's overall project, one that transcends the "plot" of the novel.

Wait. Let's be clear about exactly what we're talking about here.

That is not "The definition of filler." That is what some guy named "Paige" running a website called "Write A Book Now" says is the definition of filler. No link, no cite. I don't know who the hell he is; although his website looks pretty decent, he ain't the be-all and end-all of literary definitions.

I disagree with his definition, and strenuously. That definition significantly expands the meaning of the word and denigrates material that enhances the depth of a character or the author's depiction of the fictional world.

The word "filler" refers to material that is inserted to hit the proper length in a timed show, such as a TV episode, or into something like a recurring periodical article that is supposed to have X number of words. Unlike Paige, I'm going to treat you to some links:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/filler

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/filler

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/filler

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filler_(media)

There is nothing in ASOIAF that is designed to increase the length of the work. The very idea is absurd. The work is already too long to be ideal commercial material.

Everything in ASOIAF is meant to add depth and meaning to the story. Every. Single. Word.

PEOPLE, YOU ARE USING THE WORD "FILLER" INCORRECTLY.

Very interesting history here, and I agree that the notion that Martin is just filling pages (when his editors are likely begging him to reduce them!) makes little sense.

[Le Cygne]

Hence, even the Dany/Daario love scene was reduced to a badass look and.......take off your clothes.

They must TRY to get things so wrong, that was a simple scene about mutual desire, and it ended up with people feeling sorry for Daario.

[UVA]

My opinion is that of course ASoIaF has filler in it. 5 books into a 7 book series and you can see that there are too may threads hanging loose. Now, if Martin reaches the end of this story and has made all 2000+ characters completely necessary and relavant to the plot, then I will bow down and change my mind. Until then, I reserve my criticism that he let the story get too big and out of hand in AFFC/ADWD...even with those characters that I liked. The series should be judged as a whole, but the books must be judged on their own, as well. You can't say "Well, wait till the next book before criticizing/praising this book!" because it's supposed to stand on its own as a chapter in that story. If it can't, then it has a fault.

I'm like Jules Winnfield here and I'm tryin' real hard Ringo... you got it, fling your definition of "filler" all over Asoiaf but save us all from any contention that this is fact.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I wouldn't qualify what Manderly did as 'badass'. It's 'awesome', or 'sweet', but not 'badass'. Nothing Joffrey did was 'badass'.

I have to disagree with you. Frey Pie is badass. As is Victarion.

Yes, Joffrey is lameass.

Other than that, badass is not a good description IMBO.

OK. Jon's 'fetch me a block' is awesome but I don't think the best way to go is "badass"

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The word "filler" refers to material that is inserted to hit the proper length in a timed show, such as a TV episode, or into something like a recurring periodical article that is supposed to have X number of words. Unlike Paige, I'm going to treat you to some links:

Agree with everything. People who are familiar with anime would know and dread what filler is. And I say "dread" because filler in a story can be incredibly dangerous when done wrong. People get bored. For instance, many mangas that become popular while still being only weekly published in paper are quickly animated. Considering how the publication works (sometimes, as little as 30 pages every month), the weekly anime runs out of material to animate, as one episode can contains many instances, hence, the need to create extra stories to wait for the author to catch up. Depending on how much or how bad they are, people get bored and cancel the production.

That's exactly t he case of showGoT, not ASOIAF. To have a filler, you first need to have an original something, a book, comic, etc.

Hence, even the Dany/Daario love scene was reduced to a badass look and.......take off your clothes.

They must TRY to get things so wrong, that was a simple scene about mutual desire, and it ended up with people feeling sorry for Daario.

I can't believe that I'm saying this, but they ruined the sex.

It's like they're on a mission.

[ummester]

Oh come on - there are some pretty long descriptions of what food is served in the books. If not filler, it has to be filling :D

Seriously, it seems the definition of filler is pretty open to interpretation. One readers filler could be another readers wordgasm.

[sj4iy]

I'm like Jules Winnfield here and I'm tryin' real hard Ringo... you got it, fling your definition of "filler" all over Asoiaf but save us all from any contention that this is fact.

Oh, get over yourself. If a book can't stand on it's own story wise, then there's a problem. My opinion, and I have a right to feel that way.

[sj4iy]

Agree with everything. People who are familiar with anime would know and dread what filler is. And I say "dread" because filler in a story can be incredibly dangerous when done wrong. People get bored. For instance, many mangas that become popular while still being only weekly published in paper are quickly animated. Considering how the publication works (sometimes, as little as 30 pages every month), the weekly anime runs out of material to animate, as one episode can contains many instances, hence, the need to create extra stories to wait for the author to catch up. Depending on how much or how bad they are, people get bored and cancel the production.

That's exactly t he case of showGoT, not ASOIAF. To have a filler, you first need to have an original something, a book, comic, etc.

I can't believe that I'm saying this, but they ruined the sex.

It's like they're on a mission.

I don't see how. The sex scenes in the book are terrible. The show didn't do a much better job, but they definitely didn't do a worse.

I love Jon's story, but reading his sex scene with Ygritte makes me cringe everytime.

[UVA]

1. Rightful/lawful

A quick question, do you mean "rightful/lawful" in terms of an evaluation of an individual's claim to power?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I don't see how. The sex scenes in the book are terrible. The show didn't do a much better job, but they definitely didn't do a worse.

I love Jon's story, but reading his sex scene with Ygritte makes me cringe everytime.

But it was needed. GRRM didn't write it for the sake of having a sex scene. We have Jon not only fulfilling Benjen's words but actually, for the first time, realising that he found himself in the same situation of his father. He finds himself thinking that what he did couldn't have been that bad, and that changes his perception of his own life.

Nevertheless, authors often add stuff to make their world more realistic: background characters , places or situations. None of that is a filler, because everything add something tot he general plot, even if readers don't like it.

[Le Cygne]

I can't believe that I'm saying this, but they ruined the sex.

It's like they're on a mission.

It is. But I think they are saving her feelings for him for the BIG MOMENT. The moment Dany stops chiding Daario for being crazy about her, and treats him like something other than a fuck toy, will come out of nowhere. I was fine with the sex scenes in the books, sex scenes in books are usually odd, but he got the essentials across, how the characters felt about each other. Same with the romances. Love doesn't come out of nowhere.

[Le Cygne]

dup

[Northernmonkey]

I don't see how. The sex scenes in the book are terrible. The show didn't do a much better job, but they definitely didn't do a worse.

I actually think the sex scenes in the books are alright. Obviously the fat pink mast and the Myrish swamp are a bit ridiculous, but some of them are quite gritty and almost realistic, whereas in the show it just looks like softcore porn.

I love Jon's story, but reading his sex scene with Ygritte makes me cringe everytime.

But he was losing his virginity, it's supposed to be cringeworthy.

[ChillyPolly]

I interpret "badass" as a term that means someone is

(1) fairly evil

(2) has a smelly ass

(3) is totally proud of these things.

I usually agree more or less with the assessment given. The only aspect of the term I find myself in disagreement with is the implied approval.

[sj4iy]

I actually think the sex scenes in the books are alright. Obviously the fat pink mast and the Myrish swamp are a bit ridiculous, but some of them are quite gritty and almost realistic, whereas in the show it just looks like softcore porn.

But he was losing his virginity, it's supposed to be cringeworthy.

“I love the smell of you,” he said. “I love your red hair. I love your mouth, and the way you kiss me. I love your smile. I love your teats.” He kissed them, one and then the other. “I love your skinny legs, and what’s between them.”

...that's just terrible, TERRIBLE writing. It's something a middle schooler would write. He can lose his virginity without being that cheesy about it.

And Martin didn't much better when writing a similar scene for the show when Jon and Ygritte were talking about "silk dresses".

Basically, Martin SUCKS at writing genuine love scenes. The show absolutely can't get worse.

[Ser Eric]

I've never understood the point of categorizing something as not important to the story when you have no idea what the story is and where it's going. It defies any sort of logic.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

“I love the smell of you,” he said. “I love your red hair. I love your mouth, and the way you kiss me. I love your smile. I love your teats.” He kissed them, one and then the other. “I love your skinny legs, and what’s between them.”

...that's just terrible, TERRIBLE writing. It's something a middle schooler would write. He can lose his virginity without being that cheesy about it.

Jon is cheesy. It's not odd that he would be ubber cheesy when he actually loses his virginity. It's not terrible writing, it's very accurate on how a kid who has never even kissed a girl would think the first time he's actually having feelings for one.

You don't like it, thats fine. But it's not bad writing. It's quite fit to who Jon is, and the situation he's going through.

[Northernmonkey]

Jon is cheesy. It's not odd that he would be ubber cheesy when he actually loses his virginity. It's not terrible writing, it's very accurate on how a kid who has never even kissed a girl would think the first time he's actually having feelings for one.

You don't like it, thats fine. But it's not bad writing. It's quite fit to who Jon is, and the situation he's going through.

Yep, I agree with this.

[sj4iy]

Jon is cheesy. It's not odd that he would be ubber cheesy when he actually loses his virginity. It's not terrible writing, it's very accurate on how a kid who has never even kissed a girl would think the first time he's actually having feelings for one.

You don't like it, thats fine. But it's not bad writing. It's quite fit to who Jon is, and the situation he's going through.

It absolutely does NOT fit Jon. Jon doesn't talk much at all, nor does he EVER express emotions in any way other than nonverbally. He doesn't say "I'm angry" or "I'm happy" or "I'm upset". Everything is internal for him. He doesn't say shit like that.

I'm not about to excuse Martin for writing bad love scenes. You may want to, but I won't. Martin CAN make mistakes, he's by no means the best writer out there.