A Guide to Deciphering Posters' Comments

[Kyoshi]

I agree with "badass", but I think I'd change "defeats one's enemies" by achieving goals, which is more general.

Thanks. That's a great suggestion.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Thanks. That's a great suggestion.

No problem. Although, I got reading a bit of "badass" in the TVTROPES page, and I think it would me more accurate to say "one that is effective in his/her goals/plans/plots and is cool about it", because sometimes, even bad people can be badass.

Also, according to tvtropes, the badass of ASOIAF would be:

Jaime Lannister

Sandor Clegane

The Stark family

Barristan Selmy (i think his main act of badassery was returning to the White Tower to write his own dismissal. Like, "so long, fuckers".)

Brienne of Tarth

Drogo

Strong Belwas

Loras Tyrell

Aereo Hotah

Qhorin Halfhand

Oberyn Martell

Robert Baratheon

Asha, Euron, Victarion

Stannis Baratheon

Coldhands

(No Griff, fuckers. Despite Griff actually taking Stannis' home and he's probably all "yeah, wake me up when Stannis Baratheon knocks at the door so I could shut it at him after I turn around to let him have a view of my sweet ass").

[Kyoshi]

No problem. Although, I got reading a bit of "badass" in the TVTROPES page, and I think it would me more accurate to say "one that is effective in his/her goals/plans/plots and is cool about it", because sometimes, even bad people can be badass.

Also, according to tvtropes, the badass of ASOIAF would be:

Jaime Lannister

Sandor Clegane

The Stark family

Barristan Selmy (i think his main act of badassery was returning to the White Tower to write his own dismissal. Like, "so long, fuckers".)

Brienne of Tarth

Drogo

Strong Belwas

Loras Tyrell

Aereo Hotah

Qhorin Halfhand

Oberyn Martell

Robert Baratheon

Asha, Euron, Victarion

Stannis Baratheon

Coldhands

(No Griff, fuckers. Despite Griff actually taking Stannis' home and he's probably all "yeah, wake me up when Stannis Baratheon knocks at the door so I could shut it at him after I turn around to let him have a view of my sweet ass").

So many people! Lol, How the hell is Coldhands on that list? i 'll edit it on the next update.

[Kyoshi]

ASOIAF "Dictionary" Question III

As suggester by Butterbumps!, it seems necessary to "define" what a song of ice and fire means to each of us. I'm going to be honest and admit I don't have a clearly defined/focused idea of what it all means. I always see (and have often used) the phrase he/she embodies all aspects of ice and fire...I now find myself wondering what it means. Does anyone have a clearly defined idea of what the song is.

Feel free to continue defining and debating the other words. There is a mini dictionary on page 3, post #59 for those who are interested.

[Knight Of Winter]

Two things I think need defining most would be:

rightful / lawful

and

Great Northern conspiracy - since every time I see it; it refers to something different

[Kyoshi]

Two things I think need defining most would be:

rightful / lawful

and

Great Northern conspiracy - since every time I see it; it refers to something different

Those are AWESOME suggestions. Thanks.

I would like to throw in justice/just. And good ruler...if anyone is willing to try his/her hand.

[Game Of Thrones]

ASOIAF Dictionary So Far

As created by the Brotherhood without Banners

A player of the game

noun: A person directly involved in decisions that influence the power influxes/dynamics of the World of Ice and Fire. Such a person can be either adept or inept. An example of the former is Lord Petyr Baelish of the Fingers while the latter is epitomised by Queen Regent Cersei Lannister, formerly of Casterly Rock.

Badass

noun: One who achieves one's goals (or defeats one's enemies) in a manner that is both efficient and visually pleasant. Such a character is often required, but not always, to be emotionally aloof and highly ambitious. An imperative trait required of being worthy to be called a badass is that on occasion the character deliver a memorable one-liner such as this: "The things I do for love" or perhaps "The Lannisters send their regards" or even "Or you will rue the day I raped your mother!" Classic and often admired badasses include Clint Eastwood and James Bond. Characters such as King Joffrey Baratheon, first of his name, are merely cruel and not at all badass as their actions inspire neither sexual arousal nor any form of loyalty.

adjective: Impressive and efficient in a combatant manner.

The game

noun: the power dynamics in the series; such power is particularly pertaining to the political, magical and militaristic strategy and struggle. However, the magical aspect of the dynamics is often limited and uncontrollable, thus the political aspect is often perceived to be more reliable and therefore holds more weight. It is worth noting that even this aspect is highly mutable.

I give full credit to those whose definitions I used in this "dictionary" (which is almost everyone). Please feel free to correct anything you feel I misunderstood and thus mis-defined.

LOL

[butterbumps!]

I was actually hoping that at the end of this I could compile everything as a kind of dictionary. I also hope everyone here feels free to ask about words they don't always understand. I certainly won't think less of anyone. We are all ignorant, just on different subjects.

Yea, I think your search for more precision is admirable. As a warning, though, I know my definition of "game" is not universally accepted, lol. I may have had more than a couple heated debates about it.

ASOIAF "Dictionary" Question III

As suggester by Butterbumps!, it seems necessary to "define" what a song of ice and fire means to each of us. I'm going to be honest and admit I don't have a clearly defined/focused idea of what it all means. I always see (and have often used) the phrase he/she embodies all aspects of ice and fire...I now find myself wondering what it means. Does anyone have a clearly defined idea of what the song is.

Feel free to continue defining and debating the other words. There is a mini dictionary on page 3, post #59 for those who are interested.

Another case of me being lazy: I use a shorthand to refer to "the game" as "the politics stuff" and "the song" as "the magic stuff" in certain contexts, but that's me being a little cavalier with divisions for the sake of easy communication.

Truth be told, I don't think there's any difference between "the game" and the "song." Both are essentially about powers in flux, but "song" tends to evoke a more super-charged level of "the game"-- a level that involves magic and something more existential, but that includes and mutually conditions all the political maneuvers as well, imo.

I don't think there's even close to one meaning for the title. In part, because ice and fire take multiple meanings throughout the series. For example, one interpretation I particularly like is that "A song of ice and fire" = "the counterpoint between status quo (ice preserves and represents stasis) and change (fire consumes and represents mutability)." We're not just seeing magic, but the clash and interplay of extant systems' being massively interrupted.

If I had to give one definition that might encompass the broader idea, I guess it would be something like:

"asoiaf"= the contrapuntal (and mutually conditioning) interplay between complementary perspectives vying for their interests, typically about "power."

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

No problem. Although, I got reading a bit of "badass" in the TVTROPES page, and I think it would me more accurate to say "one that is effective in his/her goals/plans/plots and is cool about it", because sometimes, even bad people can be badass.

Also, according to tvtropes, the badass of ASOIAF would be:

Jaime Lannister

Sandor Clegane

The Stark family

Barristan Selmy (i think his main act of badassery was returning to the White Tower to write his own dismissal. Like, "so long, fuckers".)

Brienne of Tarth

Drogo

Strong Belwas

Loras Tyrell

Aereo Hotah

Qhorin Halfhand

Oberyn Martell

Robert Baratheon

Asha, Euron, Victarion

Stannis Baratheon

Coldhands

(No Griff, fuckers. Despite Griff actually taking Stannis' home and he's probably all "yeah, wake me up when Stannis Baratheon knocks at the door so I could shut it at him after I turn around to let him have a view of my sweet ass").

YOU MISSED ARYA

[OnionAhaiReborn]

I'm a bit bemused at the idea that this thread is going to pursue definitions of the novels' deepest themes alongside defining the word badass.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

for me, I only use the word 'badass' if someone does some sort of incredible physical feat. Like a badass ninja. It doesnt have to 'good' or 'bad'. Like Aemond was a badass when he tamed Vhagar so easily in TRP. Or Beatrix Kiddo was a badass when she punched her way out of her own coffin in KB2.

Just using it like, "Robert wouldnt pay the IronBank because he's a badass' is stupid IMO.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

I kind of always hoped a non-native english speaker would finally ask "What is wrong with Stannis's ass?" so we could all have a laugh(not at the person) and collectively realize how silly that phrase is. These obnoxious phrases get used so much because few posters are willing to properly articulate their thoughts. So we get every character being called a 'Mary Sue', or having 'plot armor', or being 'cliche'.

[Disputatious]

I kind of always hoped a non-native english speaker would finally ask "What is wrong with Stannis's ass?" so we could all have a laugh(not at the person) and collectively realize how silly that phrase is. These obnoxious phrases get used so much because few posters are willing to properly articulate their thoughts. So we get every character being called a 'Mary Sue', or having 'plot armor', or being 'cliche'.

Agreed to this. I find the term "badass" annoying at best. I have tried asking whether a character deemed "badass" has a diseased rectum or corrupted sigmoid colon or has just acquired a nasty case of clostridium difficile, but so far this has not diminished the use of the offending term in the least.

Oh, and kyoshi, we now have a new poetry thread with a link back to the old one under the "literature" section of Miscellaneous, and you have not made an inaugural post. For shame :)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

YOU MISSED ARYA

She's still part of the Stark family.

[Kyoshi]

Yea, I think your search for more precision is admirable. As a warning, though, I know my definition of "game" is not universally accepted, lol. I may have had more than a couple heated debates about it.

[snip]

:blushing: Thank you.

Your definition of The Game is closer to my idea of what I think it means. I can see why people might want to debate it though. That's what I love about this series: it engages me deeply on an intellectual level. Nothing is as simple as ABC, there's a lot of thought required, a lot of analysis...I enjoy it thoroughly.

My idea of A Song of Ice and Fire would be something akin to the Yin and Yang balance I suppose. The key word being balance. I always thought it was like one of those concepts were the dark side cannot survive without the light, and the opposite is true because in the end everything is relative :dunno:

I'm a bit bemused at the idea that this thread is going to pursue definitions of the novels' deepest themes alongside defining the word badass.

As am I. But it suddenly seemed silly to dedicate an entire thread to the word badass. And I saw an opportunity to finally gain an understanding on some of the things that have been raising the volume of the voices in my head.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

ASOIAF "Dictionary" Question III

As suggester by Butterbumps!, it seems necessary to "define" what a song of ice and fire means to each of us. I'm going to be honest and admit I don't have a clearly defined/focused idea of what it all means. I always see (and have often used) the phrase he/she embodies all aspects of ice and fire...I now find myself wondering what it means. Does anyone have a clearly defined idea of what the song is.

Feel free to continue defining and debating the other words. There is a mini dictionary on page 3, post #59 for those who are interested.

I agree with Butterbumps that there are multiple meaning

I also think of "ice and fire" as the "human heart in conflict" GRRM said that's his main theme in the series. So we have many characters trying to find the balance between two things just like ice and fire.

I also believe both ice and fire can each destroy and create and that they can both be used for good and evil and they can both be used to build and destroy. There is no good and there is no evil

[Woman of War]

No problem. Although, I got reading a bit of "badass" in the TVTROPES page, and I think it would me more accurate to say "one that is effective in his/her goals/plans/plots and is cool about it", because sometimes, even bad people can be badass.

Also, according to tvtropes, the badass of ASOIAF would be:

Jaime Lannister

Sandor Clegane

The Stark family

Barristan Selmy (i think his main act of badassery was returning to the White Tower to write his own dismissal. Like, "so long, fuckers".)

Brienne of Tarth

Drogo

Strong Belwas

Loras Tyrell

Aereo Hotah

Qhorin Halfhand

Oberyn Martell

Robert Baratheon

Asha, Euron, Victarion

Stannis Baratheon

Coldhands(No Griff, fuckers. Despite Griff actually taking Stannis' home and he's probably all "yeah, wake me up when Stannis Baratheon knocks at the door so I could shut it at him after I turn around to let him have a view of my sweet ass").

If you count everyone, even minor characters, who has ever done any smallest thing interesting, what is the reason to leave out Tyrion and Dany, making these two of the four main characters non-badasses, contrary to Jon and Arya?

Some on your list have done horrible things like Sandor and Jaime, who are first on your list, or the Greyjoy brothers, giving the impression that first of all one has to be a morally very dark character to make it there.

Meaning your list is rather meaningless since by logic you could write any active character on it.

Showing that "badassery" is a pointless concept.

If we use the wonderful criterion "the human heart in conflict with itself" as meaningful for the books I guess neither Victarion, Strong Belwas, Drogo, Robert nor Areo Hotah have much room on the list of deeper importance, they are just not complex enough. While Sam would have to be there.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

If you count everyone who has ever done any smallest thing positive - and some of them have done horrible things like Sandor and Jaime, who are first on your list, giving the impression that one has to be a morally very dark character to make it there - what is the reason to leave out Tyrion or e.g. Ed Tollet?

Isn't my list, it's from TVTropes :P

I don't like to quote Tropes like they're the absolute and completely truth, but they do have good points to use as reference, and one of them is that being a badass has nothing to do with being morally wrong or right: it's about being good at what you do, even if that thing you're good at isn't right.

For example, from tropes: "It's notable that fans are more likely to tolerate a violent monster of a "hero" than a befuddled, cowardly Classical Antihero". I think that explains why the Tywin love, because what he did in Castamere, was something big: he crushed a small rebellion at 19 and destroyed two houses. When we analyse more what really happened there, then we realise it's not as "epic" as it seems, because even innocent children and women die there.

I agree that Tyrion could be classified as "badass". Personally, I think his crowning moment of badassery is when he fooled Pycelle about sending Myrcella to Dorne.

[Kyoshi]

I agree with Butterbumps that there are multiple meaning

I also think of "ice and fire" as the "human heart in conflict" GRRM said that's his main theme in the series. So we have many characters trying to find the balance between two things just like ice and fire.

I also believe both ice and fire can each destroy and create and that they can both be used for good and evil and they can both be used to build and destroy. There is no good and there is no evil

I wonder if the two, conflict and balance, are mutually exclusives, each of them in itself, or if they can be reconciled. Or, if that's the whole point--to figure out if it's possible to even reconcile them or to immediately decide they are completely different concepts that have to be examined separately. I got a headache as I was writing that.

EDIT: Glossary seems more appropriate than dictionary now that I think of it.

[jon rhaegar stark]

for me ice is death and fire is life and the whole song of ice and fire will be finding a balance within life and death

kyoshi , another word that is thrown around is Filler when describing some character chapters and i really cant understand how one can say that without knowing the full story