Jon_Samwell_Snow Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 ...how about making a chair out of 'em? ;)There one chair is made out of swords. I always wondered if it was very uncomfortable to sit on the Iron Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingmonkey Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 If you look at what Jon has actually accomplished, versus what the expectations of him are in the minds of most readers, he's a relative failure. Perhaps that's more of a reflection on what "most" readers expect of him than what role he plays in the books? Keeping in mind that ADWD leaves him at a low point in his character arc (very literally), an apparent point-of-no-return which he'll have to return from to become the hero, but then consider what he's achieved. Has he become a legendary swordsman? No. Defeated any epic enemies? No. Flown any dragons? No. Stolen the Magic Sword Of Shiny from the grasp of the ancient Wriath-Lord, charged through the gates of the Perpetual Fortress of Ice while riding a mammoth and firing laser beams from his eyeballs and destroyed the immortal heart of the evil Ice Giant King? Nope. On the other hand: gone on a journey of discovery that's well on the way from turning him from mopey, self-pitying teen to a leader of men? Yup. Had to discover that sometimes you need to make tough choices and even mistakes if you want to make the right choices? Yup. Begun to show an understanding of the greater situation that has forced one of the toughest and most experienced commanders in Westeros to take his opinion seriously? Yup. Started how to learn to balance the demands of a number of very strong personalities around him pulling in different directions? Yup. Gained the respect and in many cases loyalty of many disparate people with apparently irreconcilable aims? Yup. Forged the beginnings of a peace and even alliance with the wildlings, something nobody else has been able to achieve in thousands of years? Yup. If anything I'd say too far too fast, but then I suspect that Jon's destiny is more about being a unifying force (ice & fire) than a conquering one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natasi Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 he's a relative failure. He reminds me of Harry Potter defeating Voldemort. Harry won because of some innate bull shit that had nothing to do with his actual talent.It had everything to do with his talent. Harry won because he ponied up and accepted the idea that to defeat his enemy, he had to sacrifice himself. He put his own selfish desire for glory and his own future completely aside with honor and courage. And for his bravery, for his selflessness, he was rewarded and came back to fight a mortal Voldemort one on one, proving that for all the magic he'd ensorceled himself, Voldemort was just a man and he could die. I'm quite shocked you see Harry in such a negative light, even more so that you she'd that same negative light on Jon. I think their paths are quite similar. Jon has already made tough and unpopular choices for the good of men everywhere. Indeed, it got him "killed" by his own men. I would say that is the quality that shows the mark of a true King, not prowess in battle: putting others before yourself, seeing the big picture, making tough choices. He still has a lot to learn, but whether be becomes an amazing battle-tested warrior or not has no impact on his competency as a good ruler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 I used to think that Jon was probably central, but after the way Mance manipulated him into getting himself killed with the letter sent near the end of aDwD, I'm not so sure. If you look at what Jon has actually accomplished, versus what the expectations of him are in the minds of most readers, he's a relative failure. He reminds me of Harry Potter defeating Voldemort. Harry won because of some innate bull shit that had nothing to do with his actual talent. I really hope that this isn't the way that ASOIF ends up; Jon, at this point, does not deserve to sit the Iron Throne, and he certainly doesn't deserve to be the Son(g) of Ice and Fire. That being said, I still cheer for him... He's as moral and down to earth as it comes in the novels. I just don't think he's either very smart, talented, or capable (I'll give him talent with a sword and at command). hmmm, pretty much Kingmonkey and Natasi said what I had on my mind about both Jon and Harry. In both cases, you're dealing with characters who aren't necessarily the best at everything, but who have qualities that make them excellent leaders. Jon's very first act in AGoT is to manipulate a situation to a favorable outcome (the direwolf pups) and the first glimpse we get of him shows him to be a keen observer of men. It goes on from there and, as others have pointed out, by ADwD the most capable military leader in the books is following his advice. Yes he has weaknesses... but showing people succeeding in spite of their human frailties is George's thing, no? And btw, who said anything about sitting on the Iron Throne? As for Harry Potter, my advice is to reread chapter 35 (King's Cross) in Deathly Hallows. I think you may have missed the point ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 I used to think that Jon was probably central, but after the way Mance manipulated him into getting himself killed with the letter sent near the end of aDwD, I'm not so sure. If you look at what Jon has actually accomplished, versus what the expectations of him are in the minds of most readers, he's a relative failure. He reminds me of Harry Potter defeating Voldemort. Harry won because of some innate bull shit that had nothing to do with his actual talent. I really hope that this isn't the way that ASOIF ends up; Jon, at this point, does not deserve to sit the Iron Throne, and he certainly doesn't deserve to be the Son(g) of Ice and Fire. That being said, I still cheer for him... He's as moral and down to earth as it comes in the novels. I just don't think he's either very smart, talented, or capable (I'll give him talent with a sword and at command). What makes you sure that Mance is the one who sent that letter? Also, not smart, talented, capable? I thought his entire arc in ADWD was all about how smart, talented and capable he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Also, not smart, talented, capable? I thought his entire arc in ADWD was all about how smart, talented and capable he is. One wonders where this might have come from :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 One wonders where this might have come from :P YOU CAME BACK!!!!!! (hi) And yes, one does wonder doesn't one.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 YOU CAME BACK!!!!!! Only as long as the threads don't go at that crazy speed due to an abundance of subpontal dwellers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Agrippa Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 I also throughly suspect Jon will hate himself by the end of the series. Realizing that his birth caused so much death and destruction all because of the actions of two hyper-ego idiots and a girl who just couldn't contain her lust. I feel bad for the guy. He really has had a shit life and it doesn't look like its going to get any better. Out of all the characters I hope he has a happy ending. At least a decent one. I was luke warm on Jon until I started reading some of the threads about him. Still a bit of a child but as Aemon said- Let the boy die and the man be born. On a side note- if he did warg into ghost how will that change him? More wild like a true Stark would be? I mean Rickon is the biggest changed character so far from warging. I know Arya and Bran have been effected but they often fight off their effects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon_Samwell_Snow Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 I also throughly suspect Jon will hate himself by the end of the series. Realizing that his birth caused so much death and destruction all because of the actions of two hyper-ego idiots and a girl who just couldn't contain her lust. I feel bad for the guy. He really has had a shit life and it doesn't look like its going to get any better. Out of all the characters I hope he has a happy ending. At least a decent one. I was luke warm on Jon until I started reading some of the threads about him. Still a bit of a child but as Aemon said- Let the boy die and the man be born. On a side note- if he did warg into ghost how will that change him? More wild like a true Stark would be? I mean Rickon is the biggest changed character so far from warging. I know Arya and Bran have been effected but they often fight off their effects. Rhaegar and Lyanna did cause a war to happen with other people involved. I think they really did love each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 I also throughly suspect Jon will hate himself by the end of the series. Realizing that his birth caused so much death and destruction all because of the actions of two hyper-ego idiots and a girl who just couldn't contain her lust. I feel bad for the guy. He really has had a shit life and it doesn't look like its going to get any better. Out of all the characters I hope he has a happy ending. At least a decent one. I was luke warm on Jon until I started reading some of the threads about him. Still a bit of a child but as Aemon said- Let the boy die and the man be born. On a side note- if he did warg into ghost how will that change him? More wild like a true Stark would be? I mean Rickon is the biggest changed character so far from warging. I know Arya and Bran have been effected but they often fight off their effects. ...why would he hate himself for things he had absolutely no control over? That doesn't make sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 ...why would he hate himself for things he had absolutely no control over? That doesn't make sense to me. I think Jon will by sympathetic toward R and L (if in fact Jon is the one who plays some sort of prophetic role vs Others) but will also understand that the actions of his birth parents did leads to some unforeseen and unfortunate consequence--though I find it really troubling when people try to place it ALL on L and R. That's taking away Brandon's responsibility and Aerys and other factors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 I think Jon will by sympathetic toward R and L (if in fact Jon is the one who plays some sort of prophetic role vs Others) but will also understand that the actions of his birth parents did leads to some unforeseen and unfortunate consequence--though I find it really troubling when people try to place it ALL on L and R. That's taking away Brandon's responsibility and Aerys and other factors. I think he will be angry and confused at first, but I don't see Jon hating himself for something that happened before he was born. He doesn't hate himself for being a 'stain' on his father's honor, for example...instead, he tries to prove that he is worthy of being Ned's son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 I think he will be angry and confused at first, but I don't see Jon hating himself for something that happened before he was born. He doesn't hate himself for being a 'stain' on his father's honor, for example...instead, he tries to prove that he is worthy of being Ned's son. Exactly. I suspect we may even get some sort of "I'll to do them proud" or "I'll try to do what they dreamt I might do" line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon_Samwell_Snow Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 I believe Jon will do something great like his parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellfoy Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Exactly. I suspect we may even get some sort of "I'll to do them proud" or "I'll try to do what they dreamt I might do" line. I doubt that. I agree with sj4iy that he would be at first be angry because of the lies he was told. But after, who could possibly tell him the real story about his parents ? As far as he knows Lyanna was kidnapped by evil Rhaegar who locked her in a tower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 I doubt that. I agree with sj4iy that he would be at first be angry because of the lies he was told. But after, who could possibly tell him the real story about his parents ? As far as he knows Lyanna was kidnapped by evil Rhaegar who locked her in a tower. Oh I bet he'll be hella angry first. And then he'll put it aside because FROZEN ZOMBIES and then he'll think about it for a long time and eventually come to a conclusion that he should just try to do his best to save Planetos. Howland Reed is going to show up at some point. He has answers. He can tell Jon. If not HR then Bran might be able to communicate it to Jon if he sees it in a vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellfoy Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Oh I bet he'll be hella angry first. And then he'll put it aside because FROZEN ZOMBIES and then he'll think about it for a long time and eventually come to a conclusion that he should just try to do his best to save Planetos. Howland Reed is going to show up at some point. He has answers. He can tell Jon. If not HR then Bran might be able to communicate it to Jon if he sees it in a vision. Ah sweet summer child ! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salazor Ahai Stormborn Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 I also throughly suspect Jon will hate himself by the end of the series. Realizing that his birth caused so much death and destruction all because of the actions of two hyper-ego idiots and a girl who just couldn't contain her lust. I feel bad for the guy. He really has had a shit life and it doesn't look like its going to get any better. Out of all the characters I hope he has a happy ending. At least a decent one. I was luke warm on Jon until I started reading some of the threads about him. Still a bit of a child but as Aemon said- Let the boy die and the man be born. On a side note- if he did warg into ghost how will that change him? More wild like a true Stark would be? I mean Rickon is the biggest changed character so far from warging. I know Arya and Bran have been effected but they often fight off their effects. What? Jon's birth has caused death and destruction? Why? You mean the kidnapping of Lyanna? You mean Lyanna was a girl who couldn't contain her lust? I might read the books again because I never saw any evidence of this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon_Samwell_Snow Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 What? Jon's birth has caused death and destruction? Why? You mean the kidnapping of Lyanna? You mean Lyanna was a girl who couldn't contain her lust? I might read the books again because I never saw any evidence of this... I always thought that Lyanna liked Rhaegar and Rhaegar likes Lyanna. They started a war between the people of Westeros against Aerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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