R+L =J v.105

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I also throughly suspect Jon will hate himself by the end of the series. Realizing that his birth caused so much death and destruction all because of the actions of two hyper-ego idiots and a girl who just couldn't contain her lust. I feel bad for the guy. He really has had a shit life and it doesn't look like its going to get any better. Out of all the characters I hope he has a happy ending. At least a decent one. I was luke warm on Jon until I started reading some of the threads about him. Still a bit of a child but as Aemon said- Let the boy die and the man be born.

No, Jon hated himself at the beginning of the series and felt out of place. By the end, he'll be fully mature, he'll (hopefully) know his origins and his purpose... so no, he won't hate himself. Otherwise, there would be no character growth.

At least Jon had Ned. Compare his situation to that of Gendry, and all of Robert Baratheon's bastards. In Westeros, Jon's situation was the best one possible for a "bastard."

[addicted to snow]

Exactly. I suspect we may even get some sort of "I'll to do them proud" or "I'll try to do what they dreamt I might do" line.

haha... I can't tell if you are playing or being serious...

What about GRRM's writings make you think that something like this will happen... This is not a Tide commercial...

[Marcus Agrippa]

Rhaegar and Lyanna did cause a war to happen with other people involved. I think they really did love each other.

...why would he hate himself for things he had absolutely no control over? That doesn't make sense to me.

I think Jon will by sympathetic toward R and L (if in fact Jon is the one who plays some sort of prophetic role vs Others) but will also understand that the actions of his birth parents did leads to some unforeseen and unfortunate consequence--though I find it really troubling when people try to place it ALL on L and R. That's taking away Brandon's responsibility and Aerys and other factors.

I think he will be angry and confused at first, but I don't see Jon hating himself for something that happened before he was born. He doesn't hate himself for being a 'stain' on his father's honor, for example...instead, he tries to prove that he is worthy of being Ned's son.

What? Jon's birth has caused death and destruction? Why? You mean the kidnapping of Lyanna? You mean Lyanna was a girl who couldn't contain her lust? I might read the books again because I never saw any evidence of this...

I phrased that wrong.Lyanna was really a tragic character but it was dumb what she did. She knew how Brandon was going to react. I am all for true love but this is a different time. Aerys was to blame for his own downfall competely but I think a rebellion was going to happen no matter what once Rhaeger took Lyanna whether it was love or rape. Everything points to the fact that various groups wanted to be free of the throne. Rickard Stark was planning something and so was Holster. There is no denying that. Robert was a pawn but he was the leader of his house. Jon Arynn was also interesting- but I don't know if he was just following the other two or was the lead in this mess.

Aerys should have killed Robert first. Simple as that. Then they could no longer say they were going for the throne. I mean who were they going to put up? Stannis wasn't as easily mapinulated and if Robert was dead... I am not sure what Stannis would do. That man is a confusing mess when it comes to his honor.

I have seen divorce childern beat themselves up. I can't imagine the feeling I would get if I knew my parents started a war for me. Really it's a wait and see thing. Jon has always been hard on himself and with his warging near death state I really have no idea how he will take the news. He might not even care. He just might think so what? Ned was my dad. Family has been an ongoing theme in this book and what their parents pass ot their childern. Look at relationships between the Lannister kids- all bitter,resentful, and down right hateful. Tywin was the cause for most of this. Then we have Doran and his kids- his lack of communication almost caused a war he wasn't ready for. The Baratheon brothers never got along because there parents died so early and robert was really the worst type of guyy to lead his family. A rock would have done better.

[Marcus Agrippa]

No, Jon hated himself at the beginning of the series and felt out of place. By the end, he'll be fully mature, he'll (hopefully) know his origins and his purpose... so no, he won't hate himself. Otherwise, there would be no character growth.

At least Jon had Ned. Compare his situation to that of Gendry, and all of Robert Baratheon's bastards. In Westeros, Jon's situation was the best one possible for a "bastard."

That is true. I forgot how angsty he was in the first book. Looking at his chapters right now and I have to admit- cat seemed to have done him wrong in so many ways. That being said I do understand why she did it.

[addicted to snow]

I also throughly suspect Jon will hate himself by the end of the series. Realizing that his birth caused so much death and destruction all because of the actions of two hyper-ego idiots and a girl who just couldn't contain her lust. I feel bad for the guy. He really has had a shit life and it doesn't look like its going to get any better. Out of all the characters I hope he has a happy ending. At least a decent one. I was luke warm on Jon until I started reading some of the threads about him. Still a bit of a child but as Aemon said- Let the boy die and the man be born.

On a side note- if he did warg into ghost how will that change him? More wild like a true Stark would be? I mean Rickon is the biggest changed character so far from warging. I know Arya and Bran have been effected but they often fight off their effects.

I think that you are right, Jon will hate himself - or who has become by the end of the series... And for this reason he will not try & stop Arya when she comes to stick him with the pointy end...

--

99.9% of the participants of this board fail to take into account the fact that GRRM likes to throw curveballs... GRRM also hates 'good' & 'bad' characters like, he creates 'grey' characters who have strengths & weaknesses... Jon has been a good guy for the last 5 books, it is now time for him to start his transformation into the antagonists.

[sj4iy]

I think that you are right, Jon will hate himself - or who has become by the end of the series... And for this reason he will not try & stop Arya when she comes to stick him with the pointy end...

--

99.9% of the participants of this board fail to take into account the fact that GRRM likes to throw curveballs... GRRM also hates 'good' & 'bad' characters like, he creates 'grey' characters who have strengths & weaknesses... Jon has been a good guy for the last 5 books, it is now time for him to start his transformation into the antagonists.

...is this another "Jon will be an Other!" conspiracy theory?

If you think that Martin only does "grey" characters, I would like to introduce you to Joffrey and Ramsay. They are both about as evil as one can get. The idea that Martin would turn Jon into an Other simply for the shock value of changing a good guy to bad is baffling to me. That's not at all how Martin writes.

[Addam of Hull]

I think that you are right, Jon will hate himself - or who has become by the end of the series... And for this reason he will not try & stop Arya when she comes to stick him with the pointy end...

--

99.9% of the participants of this board fail to take into account the fact that GRRM likes to throw curveballs... GRRM also hates 'good' & 'bad' characters like, he creates 'grey' characters who have strengths & weaknesses... Jon has been a good guy for the last 5 books, it is now time for him to start his transformation into the antagonists.

I don't think that's what GRRM intends that at all. To be frank, Jon's never been a wholly morally white character: he's guilty of attempting to murder a guy in the first book. Granted, Alliser Thorne was an ass and the circumstances were extenuating, but he still let his rage and anger overwhelm his morals (I wonder what Ned would have thought of that?) He's sullen and quick to perceive a slight and hot-headed. His grayness only increases in subsequent books: he kills a number of wildlings, violates his vows, betrays his lover, threatens Gilly, beheads Janos Slynt, agrees to let the Weeper cross the Wall, takes child hostages, and violates the Night's Watch's neutrality. There are reasons for each of these things, but even on this board, people still argue about whether he did the right thing. I imagine it's much the same in Westeros.

Actually, I think Martin's broadcasted the path Jon will take in one of his ADWD where he meets with the Mountain Clans to discuss settling the Wildlings and they approve of his decision to take hostages because the Kings of Winter of old used to do so. Eddard reflects that the old Kings of Winter were men that were as hard and unforgiving as the land that they ruled. That's what Jon needs to become: one of the Starks of old. It actually folds in neatly with the idea of killing the boy and letting the man be born.

[sj4iy]

I don't think that's what GRRM intends that at all. To be frank, Jon's never been a wholly morally white character: he's guilty of attempting to murder a guy in the first book. Granted, Alliser Thorne was an ass and the circumstances were extenuating, but he still let his rage and anger overwhelm his morals (I wonder what Ned would have thought of that?) He's sullen and quick to perceive a slight and hot-headed. His grayness only increases in subsequent books: he kills a number of wildlings, violates his vows, betrays his lover, threatens Gilly, beheads Janos Slynt, agrees to let the Weeper cross the Wall, takes child hostages, and violates the Night's Watch's neutrality. There are reasons for each of these things, but even on this board, people still argue about whether he did the right thing. I imagine it's much the same in Westeros.

I think he's doing the right things...they just may not be the nice things.

Actually, I think Martin's broadcasted the path Jon will take in one of his ADWD where he meets with the Mountain Clans to discuss settling the Wildlings and they approve of his decision to take hostages because the Kings of Winter of old used to do so. Eddard reflects that the old Kings of Winter were men that were as hard and unforgiving as the land that they ruled. That's what Jon needs to become: one of the Starks of old. It actually folds in neatly with the idea of killing the boy and letting the man be born.

.

I've thought much the same. Jon will be less naive, harder and less forgiving. However, I don't think he will be without mercy or justice.

[Addam of Hull]

I think he's doing the right things...they just may not be the nice things.

Oh, I agree. And I think that's one of the critical points of Jon's narrative: the right thing is not always the nice thing, the honorable thing, the dutiful thing. When Maester Aemon asks him what his father would do if he had to chose between duty and love, Jon says he would do the right thing... which Maester Aemon seems to think means that Ned would do the dutiful and honorable thing, based on his response, but as you and I both know, that's not really the case. Ned chooses to lie in front of a crowd of people to save Sansa and he (very, very likely) commits treason to save Jon. That's the right thing that Jon's talking about and it's the right thing that he's learning to do. It's part of Martin's point about rulers, too, I think: good men who do nice things don't (always) make good kings because the nice thing or the honorable thing isn't always the right thing to do in any given situation.

I've thought much the same. Jon will be less naive, harder and less forgiving. However, I don't think he will be without mercy or justice.

Agreed. Mercy is definitely an important part of Jon's character. It's mercy that stays his hand when it came to both Ygritte and the old man that the Wildlings wanted him to execute.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Exactly. I suspect we may even get some sort of "I'll to do them proud" or "I'll try to do what they dreamt I might do" line.

Perhaps "I'll try to make up for all they caused"?

[sj4iy]

Perhaps "I'll try to make up for all they caused"?

More like "Why would I give a shit about that crap when I have fricken' ice creatures and their zombie hordes trying to wipe out humanity?"

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I also throughly suspect Jon will hate himself by the end of the series. Realizing that his birth caused so much death and destruction all because of the actions of two hyper-ego idiots and a girl who just couldn't contain her lust. I feel bad for the guy.

That's kinda mean.

Also, Jon already understands. That's kinda the point of him meeting Ygritte. He knew why his father (in this case, Ned) decided to break his marriage vows with another woman, and he accepted that it wasn't as bad as he thought. He hated himself because he saw himself as "a bastard", a product of lust, lies and betrayal. But his relationship with Ygritte was actually pure (and even innocent) love. And that's why he later realises that he was fool on giving up being a father and having a family, that he saw himself less for what he was and not deserving of love in his life.

That, of course, happens just before he's chosen as LC and there is no more chances for him to really ponder about that, as he has an important duty. But in a way, he's already in peace about his origin, even though he's still curious about who his mother really was.

[BearQueen87]

I think that you are right, Jon will hate himself - or who has become by the end of the series... And for this reason he will not try & stop Arya when she comes to stick him with the pointy end...

--

99.9% of the participants of this board fail to take into account the fact that GRRM likes to throw curveballs... GRRM also hates 'good' & 'bad' characters like, he creates 'grey' characters who have strengths & weaknesses... Jon has been a good guy for the last 5 books, it is now time for him to start his transformation into the antagonists.

You constantly say things like this in RLJ without providing any evidence other than "GRRM likes curveballs" or "GRRM dose not write cliche." Just because Jon stays on the side of "good" doesn't mean he can't still be grey. Just like every single person on the side of "good"

Perhaps "I'll try to make up for all they caused"?

Sure. I think Jon will make some sort of acknowledgement that his parents did what they did for reasons, one of which is the coming ice zombies.

[The Wolves]

Rhaegar and Lyanna did not cause a war, if a more saner/wiser King was on the throne when Rhaegar/Lyanna happened than a war would have never happened that's why I can't blame them for RR.

Jon has no reason to be upset about RR except that he lost most of his Targaryen side.

[Ellfoy]

I don't think that's what GRRM intends that at all. To be frank, Jon's never been a wholly morally white character: he's guilty of attempting to murder a guy in the first book. Granted, Alliser Thorne was an ass and the circumstances were extenuating, but he still let his rage and anger overwhelm his morals (I wonder what Ned would have thought of that?) He's sullen and quick to perceive a slight and hot-headed. His grayness only increases in subsequent books: he kills a number of wildlings, violates his vows, betrays his lover, threatens Gilly, beheads Janos Slynt, agrees to let the Weeper cross the Wall, takes child hostages, and violates the Night's Watch's neutrality. There are reasons for each of these things, but even on this board, people still argue about whether he did the right thing. I imagine it's much the same in Westeros.

Actually, I think Martin's broadcasted the path Jon will take in one of his ADWD where he meets with the Mountain Clans to discuss settling the Wildlings and they approve of his decision to take hostages because the Kings of Winter of old used to do so. Eddard reflects that the old Kings of Winter were men that were as hard and unforgiving as the land that they ruled. That's what Jon needs to become: one of the Starks of old. It actually folds in neatly with the idea of killing the boy and letting the man be born.

I completly agree with you.

As for Jon hating himself because of the truth of his parentage, this brings to mind Rhaegar's melancholy and sadness because of the circonstance of his birth. The same thing could happen with Jon. From what we know, Jon and Rhaegar seem to be alike in that department.

[Kingmonkey]

As for Jon hating himself because of the truth of his parentage, this brings to mind Rhaegar's melancholy and sadness because of the circonstance of his birth. The same thing could happen with Jon. From what we know, Jon and Rhaegar seem to be alike in that department.

I think we've had more than a little of Jon's melancholy already. I see him as being a bit of a Hamletesque, engaging in an ever-lasting eternal struggle to decide what the right course of action is when circumstances around him are never quite as black and white as he wishes they were, and he doubts his own ability to steer the right course through them. Essentially he's a whiny git, but in a good way.

To be the Lord of Winterfell, or Not to be? That is the question -

Whether 'tis nobler on the Wall to suffer

The slings and arrows of outrageous Wildlings,

or to take arms against a sea of Boltons

And by opposing end them? To be stabbed, to sleep—

No more; and by a sleep, to say we end

The moping about Ygrette, and the thousand natural shocks

That bastards are heir to? 'Tis a consummation

Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep,

To sleep, perchance to warg into Ghost; Aye, there's the rub,

For in that sleep of death, what wights may come,

When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,

Must give us pause.

[stateofdissipation]

Rhaegar and Lyanna did not cause a war, if a more saner/wiser King was on the throne when Rhaegar/Lyanna happened than a war would have never happened that's why I can't blame them for RR.

Jon has no reason to be upset about RR except that he lost most of his Targaryen side.

If Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna to have her for his own or if the two ran off together for love. Lyanna and Rhaegar started the war. Their action had consequences. Brandon's reaction then Aerys's reaction to Brandon. It can be argued that they were not the proximate cause of the rebellion because Brandon's and Aerys's reactions were unforeseeable. The pair was doubtlessly the cause in fact.--The formal Latin term for cause-in-fact causation is sine qua no causation. Informally "but for". But for Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna the rebellion never would have happened.

There is a way to view Rhaegar and Lyanna as neither the proximate cause or the cause in fact of the rebellion: Lyanna's kidnapping was not an independent action. If Lyanna was kidnapped to stop the Stark-Baratheon tie into the Stark-Tully-Arryn alliance, then the alliance was the cause of the rebellion.

--It has been pointed out that Arryn was not part of the marriage pacts.

Lysa's match with Lord Arryn had been hastily arranged... He needed a young wife if house Arryn was to continue... A young wife known to be fertile. aSoS SS page 39.

This would seem to indicate that the match was hastily arranged in the wake of Aerys's killing Brandon and company. Hoster Tully's younger daughter happened to be proved fertile (By littlefinger) in time for a hastily arranged marriage that required a young wife known to be fertile.

"He wrote to me at Riverrun after Brandon was killed, but I burned the letter unread. By then, I knew Ned would marry me in his brother's place."--Catelyn aGoT page 161

This would seem to indicate that Littlefinger was wounded by Brandon and sent away as soon as he was well enough to travel. Littlefinger was sent away as soon as he was well enough to travel and Lysa was pregnant. This can be read as Littlefinger had been sent away before Cat knew she would marry Ned.

That leaves Lysa's pregnancy as an unbelievably fortunate accident or a design.

Catelyn thought that Lysa was the price Jon Arryn paid for Tully Swords to bind house Tully to the Rebellion. However, Cat's marriage to Stark had bound the Tullys to the rebellion. Hypothesis--a young wife known to be fertile was the price Hoster paid for Jon Arryn's swords.

Regardless of the direction of the deal between Hoster and Jon or Jon Arryn's part in the alliance-- if the alliance between Baratheon and Stark was a threat to the Targaryens and Rhaegar was reacting to that threat then Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna was not the cause (proximate or in fact) of the rebellion.

[Marcus Agrippa]

I think that you are right, Jon will hate himself - or who has become by the end of the series... And for this reason he will not try & stop Arya when she comes to stick him with the pointy end...

--

99.9% of the participants of this board fail to take into account the fact that GRRM likes to throw curveballs... GRRM also hates 'good' & 'bad' characters like, he creates 'grey' characters who have strengths & weaknesses... Jon has been a good guy for the last 5 books, it is now time for him to start his transformation into the antagonists.

That's kinda mean.

Also, Jon already understands. That's kinda the point of him meeting Ygritte. He knew why his father (in this case, Ned) decided to break his marriage vows with another woman, and he accepted that it wasn't as bad as he thought. He hated himself because he saw himself as "a bastard", a product of lust, lies and betrayal. But his relationship with Ygritte was actually pure (and even innocent) love. And that's why he later realises that he was fool on giving up being a father and having a family, that he saw himself less for what he was and not deserving of love in his life.

That, of course, happens just before he's chosen as LC and there is no more chances for him to really ponder about that, as he has an important duty. But in a way, he's already in peace about his origin, even though he's still curious about who his mother really was.

My phrasing could have been better. We will see what happens with him after the stabbing incident. It would be better then him hating himself or having pride in who his parent- if he just didn't care and went full stark. I have been trying to decipher is role in ice and fire and the series name. WHenever I think I fire I think of something that burns out quickly... but Ice lasts. It's hard to apply logic with this series because the meaning of ice and fire could be 1000 different things. It could wolves and dragons, it could be starks and targs, it could be the old gods and rhollar, it could be North and South, I mean I could literallty go on for hours.

[BearQueen87]

My phrasing could have been better. We will see what happens with him after the stabbing incident. It would be better then him hating himself or having pride in who his parent- if he just didn't care and went full stark. I have been trying to decipher is role in ice and fire and the series name. WHenever I think I fire I think of something that burns out quickly... but Ice lasts. It's hard to apply logic with this series because the meaning of ice and fire could be 1000 different things. It could wolves and dragons, it could be starks and targs, it could be the old gods and rhollar, it could be North and South, I mean I could literallty go on for hours.

Well...ice lasts until it comes into contact with fire. Then it melts. Or, conversely, fire burns until it comes into contact with, say, water. I don't think either element is more important than the other. It's a balancing act. Some fires can burn forever. In America we have a few monuments that boast "eternal flames," and the flame never goes out. But there are also places where ice is several hundred years old and several hundred meter thick and nothing's gonna get through that.

I don't think Jon is just going to "go full Stark," because that's only one element and Jon represents the balancing act of those two.

[Addam of Hull]

My phrasing could have been better. We will see what happens with him after the stabbing incident. It would be better then him hating himself or having pride in who his parent- if he just didn't care and went full stark. I have been trying to decipher is role in ice and fire and the series name. WHenever I think I fire I think of something that burns out quickly... but Ice lasts. It's hard to apply logic with this series because the meaning of ice and fire could be 1000 different things. It could wolves and dragons, it could be starks and targs, it could be the old gods and rhollar, it could be North and South, I mean I could literallty go on for hours.

IMHO, Martin has clearly set up Jon's unique role in this series to be that of the conciliator. He's the one that crafts an uneasy peace between the Free Folk, the Night's Watch, Stannis and his men, and the Northmen. What sets Jon apart isn't his ability with a sword or his status as a warrior, but his ability to gather and lead men. He's obviously not perfect at this, because he's young and inexperienced and has his own personal biases, but it's certainly a skillset that Martin's had him work on. There's some foreshadowing of this, too, what with King Jaehaerys being the only Targaryen monarch to have come North, the renaming of Snowgate to Queensgate, and the tale of Jaehaerys visiting the Wall and driving off Wildlings with dragons from The Rogue Prince. There's an association that's built there between the two.

And I think that we have some future set up for this, too. Jon's friendship with Tyrion, for instance, strikes me as a set up for the reconciliation of the Starks with the Lannisters. And his nature as the son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen does the same for those houses. This also applies to the metaphysical elements of the series as well.