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R+L =J v.105


Jon Weirgaryen

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I think it is also because Ned is so unlikely to have committed adultery that no one questions it. In other words, if a man who prides himself with his honor admits to such a transgression, he must be telling the truth. In addition, it happened at the very beginning of his marriage before he really even knew Cat, so that also adds to the credibility. Yes, if Jon had silver hair and purple eyes, the Ashara (or other Dornish mother) cover story might not have prevented people from figuring it out--who knows? And maybe under those circumstances, Ned would have had to rely on some back-up plan and send Jon to Essos somehow, who knows? But of course, this is fiction, and GRRM was careful to make sure that Jon looked like a Stark (even more like a Stark than most of the other Stark children). And of course, the other reason no one, including Jon or Cat, figured it out is because GRRM did not want anyone to figure it out.

But from the point of view of Jon, specifically, if he is told from as early as he can remember that he is the bastard son of Ned Stark, why would he ever even consider questioning it? He would have no reason to think about Rhaegar or Lyanna. From the point of view of Cat, she would not consider that Ned lied to her to protect Lyanna. Why would Ned do that? We know why, but it would never occur to Cat that Ned would lie to her for 14 years about such an issue. It would not occur to Cat that Ned would consider giving the knowledge to Cat to be a danger to Cat and Jon. Why would Cat ever think in those terms? So I think GRRM has done a good job of writing a situation in which it is quite plausible that neither Jon nor Cat would have figured out the truth.

Good thing Jon looked like Ned XD

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It goes back to something Ygrain, I think, once mentioned which is that Ned must have sent the baby to WF without him because when Ned goes to KL, no one in the city--including his army and Robert--mentions a baby.

I suspect that is the key to Ned's plan. He could not be seen traveling back to KL with a baby after coming from finding Lyanna. He presumably takes the baby to Starfall, and likely arranges for someone (maybe Wylla) to travel with Jon to WF ahead of Ned. It would be like one of those classic "three men and a baby" scenarios in which the supposed mother comes to the door and says, "He is yours, I cannot take care of the baby, he is your responsibility." But of course, here is it is just a "set-up" and of course Wylla would never have said anything like those words, it would just be something Ned would want everyone at WF to assume when she drops off the child for Ned and tells whichever servant takes the baby that the baby is Ned's son. In this way, the baby is never connected to Lyanna because Ned is in the South bringing back Lyanna's body at the time that Jon is being dropped off at WF. This seems like a pretty good plan to me.

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Surely someone must have suspected it?I mean it's not hard 3 kingsguard at that Tower,Lyanna is there and has died by something Ned hasn't described to anyone,Ned returns with a bastard but again The Starks looks must have helped Jon and erased every possible suspicion.

I do think there are some people who suspect such as the families of those who died at the TOJ and some other northern lords like Manderly. I think they kept quiet about it was because they had no reason/incentive to make it public, at least while Ned was alive. With the current political climate, I won't be surprised if they'll be more forthcoming with their suspicions.

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Questions (that are OT from what people are talking about, sorry), but I have to ask:

Do you think Jon is the "song of ice and fire" because of his Stark and Targaryan blood?

Do you think Jon's 'ice' (Stark) blood could keep him from being AAR?

I'm honestly curious what people will say.

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Questions (that are OT from what people are talking about, sorry), but I have to ask:

Do you think Jon is the "song of ice and fire" because of his Stark and Targaryan blood?

Do you think Jon's 'ice' (Stark) blood could keep him from being AAR?

I'm honestly curious what people will say.

1.Could be.A Song of ice and fire can have various meanings but Jon's blood could make him the Son[g] of [iCE]=Lyanna and [FIRE]=Rhaegar.

2.I am not sure what to answer on this one,Rhilor is fire,The Great Other is ice while Jon both,we don't know many things about AA so we can reach to a final conclusion.In my opinion Jon can totally be AA but in my mind he is surely TPTWP because technically his life was based on a promise so that makes him a promised prince.

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Questions (that are OT from what people are talking about, sorry), but I have to ask:

Do you think Jon is the "song of ice and fire" because of his Stark and Targaryan blood?

Do you think Jon's 'ice' (Stark) blood could keep him from being AAR?

I'm honestly curious what people will say.

1. I personally don't. The song, in my opinion, isn't a person, but a battle to come, between the promised prince(ss) (fire) and the others (ice).

2. Why would it? I see no reason why Jon wouldn't have a chance at becoming AAR.

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Questions (that are OT from what people are talking about, sorry), but I have to ask:

Do you think Jon is the "song of ice and fire" because of his Stark and Targaryan blood?

Do you think Jon's 'ice' (Stark) blood could keep him from being AAR?

I'm honestly curious what people will say.

1. Yes

2. I don't know because it's hard to say what exactly AAR is. Both Mel and the Red Priests of Volantis seem to think that AAR is a Fire Champion, just the one element. That could be their misinterpretation though. I do find it interesting that when Mel looks into her FIRE, looking for the Lord's Chosen, she sees SNOW. The two elements combined.

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MtnLion,

thanks, I really should be reading the books more often. But still, the idea that Lyanna was not yet betrothed at Harrenhal really sounds wrong to me. If that was the case, then surely Rhaegar would have had a pretty good chance to broker a match with Rickard to make Lyanna his second wife. Especially since they could have set aside Elia completely after she became effectively barren after Aegon's birth (which seems to have occurred after Harrenhal).

At Harrenhal, Rhaegar was not interested in a second wife. Rhaegar only became interested in a second wife after Aegon's birth, which followed the tourney by nine or more months.

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Questions (that are OT from what people are talking about, sorry), but I have to ask:

Do you think Jon is the "song of ice and fire" because of his Stark and Targaryan blood?

Do you think Jon's 'ice' (Stark) blood could keep him from being AAR?

I'm honestly curious what people will say.

I believe 100% that one of the meanings of A Song of Ice and Fire is Jon. It is not the only meaning. I agree with Rhaenys_Targaryen that the Song is the battle to come, and that is the most straight forward interpretation because a song in this context typically refers to a battle. But I disagree strongly that a reference to the battle is the only meaning. GRRM is not always that literal--or at least not exclusively that literal. I think the brilliance of the title is that it has multiple meanings (reference to the dragons and the Others; reference to the larger balance of forces in nature, etc.). One of the many meanings is that Jon is A Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified. It is not the only meaning--but it is one of the meanings.

As far as whether Jon is AAR, when Mel tries to see AA, all she sees is Snow. 'nuff said.

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Surely someone must have suspected it?I mean it's not hard 3 kingsguard at that Tower,Lyanna is there and has died by something Ned hasn't described to anyone,Ned returns with a bastard but again The Starks looks must have helped Jon and erased every possible suspicion.

We cannot know where Ned said the Kingsguard opposed him and died. We cannot be sure where Ned told Robert he had found Lyanna. It would be foolish for Ned to combine the two in any narrative that he offers. We do know that he told Robert that Lyanna died of a fever, and that is what he says to himself that she died of.

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MtnLion,



if Rhaegar fell in love with Lyanna at Harrenhal - which is not explicitly confirmed by anything I've read, but also not disproved (I don't think the Crowning was just some 'Yeah, you were a great knight' confirmation) - he may have thought about taking a second wife back then. Love transcends all things, after all, even monogamy.



I'm pretty sure that Aegon's birth and Elia's subsequent medical condition directly caused Rhaegar's actions afterwards. But I don't think we can be sure that Rhaegar only came up with the 'second wife' idea at that point. As far as we know, he was never in love with Elia, and if he fell in love with Lyanna at Harrenhal, he may already have contemplated the idea back then.



But even if we assume that Rhaegar was not intending to make a romantic (or political) overture to Lyanna or House Stark with the Crowning, it is very unlikely that he made a declaration afterwards, explaining to everyone what he did not want to express, insinuate, or hint at with the Crowning.



Thus both the Starks and Robert could have (and would have, in my opinion) interpreted the Crowning as some sort of romantic gesture towards Lyanna. Honestly, I don't think how else should they have understood it. The identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree was not common knowledge, after all. And Ned clearly did never learn that Benjen apparently trained Lyanna in the knightly arts - suggesting that neither Ned nor Brandon ever knew or learned who that knight was.


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My point about the time line has also nothing to do with the weather calculations. Just with the distances. It makes little sense to me to assume that Ned traveled from Harrenhal to Winterfell, and then to the Vale - from where he then, presumably, intended to travel to the wedding at Riverrun.

There is an assumption here, that Ned would travel to Riverrun. However, we see Ned at the Eyrie, and it certainly seems like he never made any attempt to go to Riverrun for the wedding, or that he returned from any such venture. If Ned was in Riverrun with Rickard for the wedding, we are missing some reason for him to return to the Eyrie.

ETA: After the winter, and Brandon goes to answer Littlefinger's challenge, Ned could carry Rickard's acceptance back to Robert at the Eyrie.

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I always thought - and still think - that Robert and Lyanna were not betrothed after Harrenhal, or met each other first on that tourney.

And again, I did not speculate all that much about Rhaegar's motivations, I thought about how Rhaegar's actions may have been interpreted by Robert, the Starks present at Harrenhal, and others.

My point about the time line has also nothing to do with the weather calculations. Just with the distances. It makes little sense to me to assume that Ned traveled from Harrenhal to Winterfell, and then to the Vale - from where he then, presumably, intended to travel to the wedding at Riverrun.

It would be much more likely if Ned and Robert's meeting at Harrenhal caused the friends to decide to accompany their foster father to the Vale, who conveniently happened to be at Harrenhal, too. That would be fun, seeing old friends again, spending some more time with Robert and Jon, especially since both friends (and Jon as well, perhaps) would - presumably - also attend the wedding in Riverrun some time later.

The other scenario reads like 'I travel because I like traveling'.

The gossip about Mya could have reached Lyanna in a number of ways. The best idea would be that gossip spreads, and that, since Rickard had kin in the Vale through his paternal aunt, more people may have traveled back and forth, not just Ned. Another possibility is that Ned traveled to the Vale in the company of friends and servants from Winterfell - at least during his later visits, when he no longer was Jon Arryn's ward -, some of which later returned, and gossiped, even if Ned himself did nothing of this sort (Benjen would be a very good suspect for that!).

Lyanna would have been clearly very interested in getting a full picture of her future lord husband.

It would be easily imaginable that Robert and Lyanna did not first meet at Harrenhal but in the Vale, when either the wards Robert and Eddard where visited by the whole Stark family - I don't know if such a visit occurred, but I'd be surprised if it did not. Another possibility could be that Rickard brought Ned down into the Vale himself, accompanied by (some of) his children - Robert could already have been there, at this time (after all, we know that Bronze Yohn also accompanied his Ser Waymar to the Wall, so this is easily imaginable, especially if Rickard also wanted to pay his kin in the Vale a visit).

The App indicates that Robert decided he wanted to marry Lyanna, suggesting that Robert only asked for Lyanna's hand after his parents died. But this does not mean that he came up with that idea only after Harrenhal.

The scenario that all the Starks returned to Winterfell first after Harrenhal also causes many troubles for the whole Lyanna-Rhaegar-thing:

Where was she when Rhaegar abducted her? Conveniently back in the South without her family for some unknown reason? If no longer in the North/at Winterfell, then where did she go? With whom did she travel to wherever she was? Brandon was apparently not with her when she was abducted (else he would have attacked Rhaegar then and there). Why did Ned not take her with him to the Vale, so that she could spend time with her new betrothed? Why did Robert not accompany Ned to Winterfell to talk to Rickard in person about his wish to marry Lyanna? How could she have begun her 'pen pal romance' with Rhaegar at Winterfell, assuming that they did not fall in love at Harrenhal?

But we know that Ned arrived at the tourney from the Eyrie:

It was the year of false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal. (AGoT, 58)

And that the ToH was "a year or two" before the start of the Rebellion (SSM)

I don't know how this rules out the Starks returning to WF together after the tourney. There would be ample time for travel, and weather need not be a factor, other than possibly keeping the Starks together for the end of winter. Ned bringing Robert's suit formally to his father after the tourney and then returning to the Vale to meet Robert and finalize plans makes sense, and is in keeping with what we know of his movements. On the other hand, we have no indication in the text that Robert met Lyanna at any time prior to the tourney. I can see how the app can be read in a certain way, but that interpretation could simply be based on the way the information is presented there (in other words, the app gives no true indication as to sequence or timeline... and as usual the problem with the app is teasing out what is interpretation and what is actual, new information) The problem with the Mya Stone information is that, even using the earliest possible date for her birth, she'd still be quite young at the time of tourney. For Ned to have held her and then traveled to WF to have this conversation with Lyanna and then back to the Eyrie before the tourney seems a stretch, especially if it was wintertime (we don't know exactly when the False Spring began, but presumably it was winter prior to it)

As for R+L, I'm not sure what problems arise in that scenario. First-- we don't know that there was ever any "pen pal romance" That's sheer fabrication and not a valid objection to Lyanna having returned to her home after the tourney, which in any event seems to have been a year before her abduction (per SSM above) As to the where, most assume somewhere in the Riverlands, possibly in the vicinity of Harrenhal or on the road somewhere in that area. Brandon's "errand" was in all likelihood a rendezvous with his sister, possibly to escort her to Riverrun for his own wedding. Ned and Robert were in the Vale at the time of Brandon's rush to KL, and Lord Rickard heading south for Brandon and Cat's wedding. Was Lyanna simply en route to Riverrun herself with an escort, or had she been visiting friends at another noble House? We don't know exactly, but it seems clear that the three siblings had departed WF by this time and ended up in three separate locations (my guess is that they left together and at the Crossroads Ned headed east for the Eyrie to bring Robert his father's acceptance, Brandon west for Riverrun and Lyanna stopped at Harrenhal for an as yet undisclosed reason) Obviously we are missing key pieces of information surrounding the abduction. The point is, you cannot summarily rule out any scenario (especially the return to WF post tourney -- which is based on the most amount of text and least amount of assumption) with the objections you've stated so far. Unless you have some other source of information, in which case-- do share :)

My sincerest apologies to Mtn Lion and Lady Gwynhyfvr. I could have sworn I checked the profile and it said female, but I re-checked and you are correct. I am humbled and embarrassed. I will crawl into my hole now and perform my penance.

Happens to the best of us ;)

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Questions (that are OT from what people are talking about, sorry), but I have to ask:

Do you think Jon is the "song of ice and fire" because of his Stark and Targaryan blood?

Do you think Jon's 'ice' (Stark) blood could keep him from being AAR?

I'm honestly curious what people will say.

Ok, I'm teasing here but really can't resist ;) ...

We have a lot to say on this very subject in the upcoming RLJ episode (E05) of Radio Westeros. Look out for it early next week :D

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If he didn't, then people would just assume that Ashara was the mother. Dayne men are known for having Valyrian features...

She had dark hair, if I recall correctly.

I think had Jon been silver-haired, there would have been a problem.

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Ok, I'm teasing here but really can't resist ;) ...

We have a lot to say on this very subject in the upcoming RLJ episode (E05) of Radio Westeros. Look out for it early next week :D

Lol, thanks.

I guess my own thoughts are:

1. He can be described that way, but I don't think it really means anything.

2. I think AAR/TPTWP are the same figure, so I see no reason why Jon's Stark (ice) side would prevent him from being this prophesied 'hero'. Plus we see nothing in any of the prophesies that would exclude him.

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