Danaerys/Cersei parallels

[OldGimletEye]

That's not Dany's strength. She's not a silk queen. Fire and Blood!

If you're trying to do the changes that Dany is trying to make, Fire and Blood is probably not going to cut it. Dany's troubles in Mereen would have probably gone a lot easier had she known more about the internal politics there. And Dragon's aren't very good at fighting asymmetric warfare.

[TheZone]

Lets get something correct, Dany is 16-27 at the moment while Cersei is in her 30's. Cersei had her father who was actually a pretty good ruler to watch all her life, while the best Dany had was Drogo for less than a year. Also adding Jon who had Ned to watch all his life. Dany rises above anything, while honestly if Cersei was in Dany's situation I think she would have been killed by the Dothraki.

[Le Cygne]

Dany's troubles in Mereen would have probably gone a lot easier had she known more about the internal politics there.

I'm saying she has to focus on what she does best, and leave that to someone else.

[OldGimletEye]

I'm saying she has to focus on what she does best, and leave that to someone else.

But, here is the thing: a military strategy usually doesn't make much sense, unless you know what the actual political objectives are, unless you are doing some kind of Ludendorffian total war thing. Dany isn't some mid-level field commander who only needs to concern herself with the operational level of war. She is the head of state. So, she very much has to understand political situations better. And because of her position, she can't escape being a policy maker.

[larastone]

Personally I think one of the reasons Cersei sucks at ruling is because she thinks she has to FIGHT to keep her power, instead of diplomacy. dany is somewhat similar, by the end of ADWD she realizes she's more about "fire and blood" than diplomacy

basically both women are more warriors than politicians imo

[El Guapo]

Fire and blood was what was needed in Meereen and not planting trees.

[OldGimletEye]

Personally I think one of the reasons Cersei sucks at ruling is because she thinks she has to FIGHT to keep her power, instead of diplomacy. dany is somewhat similar, by the end of ADWD she realizes she's more about "fire and blood" than diplomacy

basically both women are more warriors than politicians imo

And Robert was a warrior and and a bad king. It's fine to be a soldier/king/queen, but you do at that level of command have to understand politics and policy.

Fire and blood was what was needed in Meereen and not planting trees.

It helps when you actually know who your enemies are.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Oh, you want more details? Yes, that's all that can be talked about productively.

Some examples of Dany's political failures:

• The only constant in Dany's sentences is "fuck the Meereneese over". Vague again, plus who are "the Meereeneese?" You can't talk about them like one group. I doubt most of the former slaves share opinions with most of the ex-slaveowners. Happened to the young guy seeking justice for his family, the old guy wanting money from his ex-slaves and more, - hmmm . . . I remember Dany dealing with some very difficult legal cases and trying to balance justice against establishing who was boss. Not an easy balance, and I don't remember her ever thinking about fucking Meereen or its people over as a goal - until the Meereneese - again, who are these people? - learned that the only way they could ever get justice - I'm sure the former slavemasters have a highly-developed sense of justice - was to get rid of Cersei. Brilliant plan, get rid of Cersei. :drunk: Solution: Be predictable and constant in your sentences. Dude/Chick: Predictability and constancy are wonderful and important goals for the law, but even here, in the 21st century, after nearly 1000 years of developing English/American common law, new legal principles arise constantly. You are truly asking for the impossible. The way, way impossible. It took centuries for common law to develop into something even semi-predictable and formalized from when kings first started holding court. In the meanwhile, there was some seriously screwed-up justice being dealt out on an ad hoc basis. People can adapt to new rules. But not if you change them all the time to fuck them over. This is just silliness. Dany makes the best decisions she can, and she operates on the basis of some commendable principles.

• Taking hostages and blurting out that you won't harm them. Solution: Don't. One or the other, but don't. OK, we made it to the "kill everybody" suggestion, as I predicted. I wouldn't vote for that one, nor will I hold Dany to task for not voting for it. I'm not sure what there is to gain from the "don't take hostages" suggestion either. At least she has hostages. They don't have negative value to her.

Being insulted because the Yunkai wanted hostages instead of relying on her word - after she has broken literally every treaty she ever made. What do you suggest? This is is not a situation of equally shared power. It can't be, until she establishes peace. Solution: Grow a second braincell, the current one is busy swooning over Daario. Please don't troll. I'll block you.

As to naval transport, narrow quarters bread disease. True enough. It won't be healthy down there, but that's just the way troops got transported then. If they're going to be transported, it will be in dank holds. Getting on deck daily for exercise should keep most of them alive, though. And they can be put to work keeping the place spic 'n span. They've got plenty of sea water to wash the ship with, and the Unsullied are highly disciplined and will readily obey whatever orders they receive. Advances in hygiene and medicine improve that. Food and water spoils fast, after mere days with the given technology. Salt meat is not an advanced technology. In fact, it is mentioned frequently in the series. Water takes months to go bad if it is properly casked, and even then it only goes bad quite slowly. Columbus barely made it across the Atlantic for that reason, but the need for improvements bred them. Columbus isn't relevant here; ships sail regularly across the Narrow Sea and to all or most of the coast of Essos. Long travels cause scurvy and other diseases based on shitty rations, something solved by Cook centuries later. And so it does, but crossing the Narrow Sea isn't crossing the Pacific. Until they cross the Narrow Sea they will be sailing in coastal waters where they can re-provision when needed.

And a crew needs sleeping quarters, not only the transported "livestock". Insignificant by comparison.

[Nictarion]

It helps when you actually know who your enemies are.

They're all her enemies. None of the Meerenese want her there. Except maybe the Shavepate.

[SeanF]

Fire and blood was what was needed in Meereen and not planting trees.

I'm sure that Dany could have executed every free Meereenese inhabitant, when she took the city, but that would surely have provoked a war to the death with the inhabitants of the surrounding hinterland.

[ARYa_Nym]

Visenya was an actual warrior queen unlike Dany or Cersei and she used diplomacy when dealing with the Vale and lords later went to her for guidance when Aenys had trouble keeping the realm together.

ETA: & there were moments when she advocated fire and blood too. I don't think it's an either or thing. Sometimes diplomacy is the right course of action and other times it isn't very feasible.

[Thanos Targaryen]

Ironically Dany may be learning that the type of contempt Cersei has for her social inferiors may be exactly the correct attitude to have. Not in terms of tormenting the helpless smallfolk for no reason, but to keep the constantly scheming and treacherous nobility in line. Dany is desperately trying to be everything to everyone, which is exactly the wrong thing to do with the scum of the Ghiscari nobility. Even the Shavepate is constantly suggesting that Dany should mercilessly bring down the hammer on the Meereenese upper class. The entire problem with the siege by the Yunkai'i is that Dany was erroneously too generous in trying to maintain peace with them. I'm expecting that in TWOW Dany is going to come back to Meereen on Drogon's back and at the head of a hundred thousand Dothraki and, having finally learned her important lesson that she is a force of nature that others must bow down to and that "learning" to rule a pack of treacherous Ghiscari slaver scum has been a complete waste of her time, the smartest thing to do will be to practically exterminate the entire local upper class until the survivors finally get the idea through their heads that they'd best not fuck her around.

What would Cersei have done with three dragons, 10000 Unsullied, and a host of sellswords at her disposal? Let's just say that the entirety of Slavers Bay would know who was in real control because she wouldn't have made a fool of herself like Dany did by marrying a cretin like Hizhdar. To quote Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson (or, even better, Maegor The Cruel and Tywin Lannister) the best solution to some problems is to simply "Kill them. Kill them all". :devil: :devil: :devil:

[Kyoshi]

Ok, now I have time to write.

The first parallel is their marriages. They both were betrothed as a bargain, in a way. Cersei, to assure the cooperation of the Lannisters to the new King, and Dany, in exchange of an army, although some would say that was a ruse and it was a way to keep Drogo and his people away from Pentos.

Cersei and Dany started their marriages as the "abused" part, but Dany was able to subvert it, while Cersei, couldn't. The interesting part here is that Dany went to that marriage as practically a slave, and was "elevated" to a Queen. Cersei was marrying as Tywin Lannister's daughter, probably the most powerful woman of the Seven Kingdoms at the moment, yet, Robert respected her nor loved her at all, and wanted to get rid of her.

During Cersei and Robert's first night, he said "Lyanna". It was a private moment that destroyed their marriage, and only Ned found out.. When Dany started to learn how to control him, he shouted out her name, in public.

Both husbands killed the one they were supposed to marry. The twist is that Cersei's husband is the abuser and Dany's husband killed her abuser.

Cersei and Dany are both mother of three. And all of the "children" have been called abominations or monsters at some point. None of them had those children with their husband and lost the one they managed to sire, although Dany didn't intend for that to happen.

They were given the choice/order to remarry after they're husbands were dead. Cersei refused and was also refused, despite being rich and powerful. Dany has always had a lot of suitors and there are more on their way.

Cersei didn't marry and that was a mistake: she couldn't rule alone and she could have used some help and win some alliances, and she could have chosen anyone she liked. Dany marry out of duty, and while she's unhappy with Hizdar, that brought considerable relative peace to Meereen.

Dany's surviving the pyre and birthing the dragon is her moment of biggest glory, while Cersei's wos is her biggest shame.

They didn't willingly take off their clothes, nor their hair: Cersei was stripped of her clothes and shaven by the septas while Dany entered the pyre with her clothes on and the fire forced her to take them off. The fire also burn all of her hair.

The septas who undressed and shaved Cersei told her that in this way, she would be reborn, as she was born naked and without hair. In fact, this made her "died" as a Queen. Dany was thought to be killing herself by Jorah and the Dothraki, but she was indeed "reborn" as a Goddess magical figure.

The people who saw Cersei's naked body made fun of her due to the marks of childbearing: saggy breasts, stretch marks and even, gained weight. For her, to have given birth "spoiled" her as a desirable woman. Dany never actually gave birth the Dragons, but the fact she had milk in her breasts, and the dragons drank from them, got her the name of "mother of dragons".

Very nice!

Cersei, of course, is a laughably horrible ruler who creates her own problems, but I don't agree that Daenerys knows shit about ruling.

Yes, she makes mistakes, like everybody else in the series, but unlike Cersei who screws up things that start out in fine shape, Dany is constantly confronted with insoluble problems, particularly the Harpy problem. I just don't see the stupidity in her responses to it. If you think she has been stupid, what would have been smart? The only answers I can recollect being proposed are (1) leave, or (2) have a big slaver-massacre party. I'm not crazy about either of those answers, and I find it quite easy to reject the proposition that either of those answers is a correct answer that is sure to bring about a successful result. Is there another answer? One we can look at and say "yes, that's it, how could she have been so stupid as not to see that?"

Now, I know some people think that starting the whole Slaver's Bay emancipation project was stupid. I disagree with that, but since we have argued that many times and will never agree, let's leave that to the side for the moment and at least pretend for now that it was worthwhile to bring the old structure down and the question was what to do afterward. I don't really see an easy answer. What do you do about a well-organized and secretive insurgency?

I'm a little bit of an amateur hobbyist in history, and my own personal conclusion about the great leaders that I've studied throughout history is that the one thing they all seem to have in common is that they are not afraid to act. Average, competent leaders tend to get frozen by the complexity inherent in any dramatic change. Great leaders visualize the future, act to bring it about, and then see their way through the complexities by strength of will. That's what I think Daenerys is in the process of doing; she just hasn't gotten to the end stage yet.

Very nice! :agree: :bowdown:

[Kyoshi]

Lets get something correct, Dany is 16-27 at the moment while Cersei is in her 30's. Cersei had her father who was actually a pretty good ruler to watch all her life, while the best Dany had was Drogo for less than a year. Also adding Jon who had Ned to watch all his life. Dany rises above anything, while honestly if Cersei was in Dany's situation I think she would have been killed by the Dothraki.

Oh thank you!!!!!!!!!

[Ser Eric]

I suppose given the alarming parallells between the characters, it's only fair to conclude that Dany is the Targaryen Cersie.

[larastone]

Lets get something correct, Dany is 16-27 at the moment while Cersei is in her 30's. Cersei had her father who was actually a pretty good ruler to watch all her life, while the best Dany had was Drogo for less than a year. Also adding Jon who had Ned to watch all his life. Dany rises above anything, while honestly if Cersei was in Dany's situation I think she would have been killed by the Dothraki.

No @ tywin being a great ruler, and tywin never taught cersei how to rule. He only looked for her when he needed to parade her around like a trophy for marriage so he could further his own political gain

[OldGimletEye]

They're all her enemies. None of the Meerenese want her there. Except maybe the Shavepate.

We really don't know that. Nor does Dany. But hey, simple notions for simple Khaleesies, I suppose.

[Maid So Fair]

No @ tywin being a great ruler, and tywin never taught cersei how to rule. He only looked for her when he needed to parade her around like a trophy for marriage so he could further his own political gain

No one has actively taught Dany how to rule either - she TAKES the power. Cersei was at the court while Tywin was the Hand and then she was the actual Queen. She shouldn't need to be spoon-fed the relevant information, it was there for the taking for anyone observant and analytical enough. It is extremely telling that after all this time the fiasco that is her AFFC rule is the best she can do when she has had years to figure out the important players, their motivations, and to secure her own power base despite having had all the resources at her disposal. Even Marg, who has been at the court for just a few months, has cemented her power to a bigger extend, establishing a circle of confidantes loyal only to her and winning the popular support. Dany figured out how to assert herself by observing the Dothraki, learning about their customs and then using them to get what she wanted.

[Nictarion]

We really don't know that. Nor does Dany. But hey, simple notions for simple Khaleesies, I suppose.

It's pretty damn obvious. How much evidence do you need? The 163 crucified slave children the Meerenese killed to warn Dany not to come there, burning the olive trees, the Sons of Harpy killings, the blockade of Slavers Bay, outlawed slavery and fighting pits. Yeah I'm sure tons of Meerenese are thrilled with her. Like I said, the Shavepate and his men are the only ones who've benefited from Dany's reign.

And you certainly spend a lot of time talking about such a "simple" character.

[OldGimletEye]

It's pretty damn obvious. How much evidence do you need? The 163 crucified slave children the Meerenese killed to warn Dany not to come there, burning the olive trees, the Sons of Harpy killings, the blockade of Slavers Bay, outlawed slavery and fighting pits. Yeah I'm sure tons of Meerenese are thrilled with her. Like I said, the Shavepate and his men are the only ones who've benefited from Dany's reign.

And you certainly spend a lot of time talking about such a "simple" character.

All we get is hints about the families. We don't really get a lot of information about them. We don't know much about the heads of the families. I am pretty sure the Kandaqs historical rivalry with the Loraqs isn't the only one in Mereen. The bottom line is that we know little about how Mereen operates. And this probably is due to the fact that most of our information comes from Dany's POV.

And I never said that Dany is simple.