B+A=Edric Dayne and rights to winterfell

[Lady Blizzardborn]

And no one would be suspicious that they were pregnant at the same time?

Also, why? The damage was already done. Ashara was pregnant, yet unmarried. Whether the child lived or died, her reputation was damaged. There was no fixing that. So instead of faking a pregnancy and pretending that the bastard died, just keep the bastard. It is Dorne, and in Dorne, there is no shame in keeping bastards around, it seems.

No shame for the men, but do we have examples of Dornish women having bastards around without loss of reputation? I don't remember any, but that could just be my memory being funky.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

No shame for the men, but do we have examples of Dornish women having bastards around without loss of reputation? I don't remember any, but that could just be my memory being funky.

That particular damage has already happened.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

And no one would be suspicious that they were pregnant at the same time?

Also, why? The damage was already done. Ashara was pregnant, yet unmarried. Whether the child lived or died, her reputation was damaged. There was no fixing that. So instead of faking a pregnancy and pretending that the bastard died, just keep the bastard. It is Dorne, and in Dorne, there is no shame in keeping bastards around, it seems.

No it's totally different. A simple premarital sex is overlooked a bastard isn't. Not even in Dorne where we have zero examples of women having bastards. And no the "Most beautiful woman in Westeros" wouldn't had narried a household knight just like the other woman who had a living bastard.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

That particular damage has already happened.

Exactly

No it's totally different. A simple premarital sex is overlooked a bastard isn't. Not even in Dorne where we have zero examples of women having bastards. And no the "Most beautiful woman in Westeros" wouldn't had narried a household knight just like the other woman who had a living bastard.

So what would it then matter whether the bastard lived for a day, or for a decade? It would matter nothing. The child was carried to term.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Exactly

So what would it then matter whether the bastard lived for a day, or for a decade? It would matter nothing. The child was carried to term.

Yet it was alive. An alive bastard is a constant reminder a dead one can be forgotten. If she had an alive one the best she could expect was household knights or just people of inferior status. For the "Most beautiful woman in Westeros" that is not good enough.

[Luddsthirdmorph]

You need to get timelines straight regarding all the children in the novels. It sort of matters I think to the final story.

if we set Harrenahall tourney as time zero, so that any child born that day and the start of the books we have:

Aegon (the real) born 6-9 months after Harrenhall so about 15/16 at the start of the books. He could be the son of Elia and Rhaegar as is the public perception, but equally he could be the son of Aerys and Ashara Dayne (swapped with Elia's dead child). It is also possible that Elia had a fling at Harrenhall, with Brandon being a prime candidate for Daddy.

The daughter of Ashara Dayne - supposedly stillborn. Almost the same age as Aegon (ie 15/16) conceived at Harrenhall. We know Ashara was pregnant. Possible fathers are: Aerys, Brandon, Ned, Benjen (he was 12 so not too likely), Other than Aegon the only other possibility for such a child (if alive) would be Meera Reed who could be the right age although she seems a year or so younger.

Robb - 14/15 at the start of the books. Mother definitely Cat. Possible fathers: Ned, Brandon, Littlefinger

Jon - 14 at the start of the book. Possible mothers: (Ned as dad) Wylla, Ashara, Lyanna as mother - many possible fathers Rhaegar, Mance, Aerys, Littlefinger. Any man who was in the riverlands at the start of the rbellion or three months in could have been the father. Now is it possible for Ashara to be Jon's mother AND have had a stillborn daughter after Harrenhall. Yes just. Aegon was born before the rebellion and presumably before the disappearance of Lyanna. Jon was born roughly a year after the rebellion started so there is easily 15- 18 months between them. Lots of families (including my own) have children 12 or 15 months apart.

Dany - 13 when the book starts, born 9 months after the rebellion. Possible parents Rhaella (plus Aerys or NED), Ashara (plus Aerys or Ned)

Ned Dayne- 11/12 when the book starts. He was 12 going on 13 when we met him. Possible parents a brother of Arthur Dayne, or Ashara and Ned. Ned was in the right place to conceive him given that he hung around Dorne for a few months after the rebellion, burying people and traveling to Starfell. However to be little Ned's dad, Ned S would have had to hang around in Dorne for several years or possibly leave Jon at Starfell with Wylla the wet nurse and return to collect him. Ned could have been conceived just when Ned returned to collect Jon. If we assume that Sansa was born rougly 9 months after Ned and cat both settle at Winterfell, Ned Dayns needs only to be 3-6 months older than Sansa for the timelines to work..

Sansa - 11 when the book starts - and a young 11 too since she was still 13 in FoC

Podrick Pyne - 9/10 when the book starts

[DarkSister1001]

Ned Stark struggled with the guilt of his lies (claiming Jon as his own) for the rest of his life. I seriously doubt he fathered an actual bastard. He's just too damned honorable.

[Minsc]

Robb - 14/15 at the start of the books. Mother definitely Cat. Possible fathers: Ned, Brandon, Littlefinger

None of those besides Ned are possible fathers as she directly says she gave her maidenhead to Ned.

[John Hulboy]

The thread was about Brandon being the father of Ned Dayne . Wouldn't Brandon's children come before any other Starks since he was lord Rickard oldest male child . I would have liked the Starks to have other family they took a real beating an im hoping things go good for them the last 2 books . I would like to know Brandon's bastards I'm hoping Benjen is still alive .allyria Dayne seems like a good candidate did being a stark but I could be wrong .

[Universal Sword Donor]

No it's totally different. A simple premarital sex is overlooked a bastard isn't. Not even in Dorne where we have zero examples of women having bastards. And no the "Most beautiful woman in Westeros" wouldn't had narried a household knight just like the other woman who had a living bastard.

Uh huh. You realize there are almost a dozen characters named Sand and at least two girls from Bear Island whose mother won't acknowledge who the father is.

Oh and the most famous bastard in history, Daemon Blackfyre, whose unmarried, single mother refused to divulge who the father was until the father himself acknowledged him on his death bed?

[Universal Sword Donor]

The thread was about Brandon being the father of Ned Dayne . Wouldn't Brandon's children come before any other Starks since he was lord Rickard oldest male child . I would have liked the Starks to have other family they took a real beating an im hoping things go good for them the last 2 books . I would like to know Brandon's bastards I'm hoping Benjen is still alive .allyria Dayne seems like a good candidate did being a stark but I could be wrong .

Ned Dayne would be as old or older than Beric Dondarrion if he was Brandon's child. Definitely close enough that he'd have been a knight by now.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Uh huh. You realize there are almost a dozen characters named Sand and at least two girls from Bear Island whose mother won't acknowledge who the father is.

Oh and the most famous bastard in history, Daemon Blackfyre, whose unmarried, single mother refused to divulge who the father was until the father himself acknowledged him on his death bed?

Don't forget Elaena Targaryen, who had two bastard and then married once, twice or even trice afterwards.

[Annara Snow]

You're right, it is important to get the timetable straight. Daenerys is 12 at the start of the books. She doesn't turn 13 until a point several months into the story.

Robb is 14.

Wrong. Dany was 13 at the start of the book. She doesn't turn 14 until a point several months into the story. "It was her fourteenth nameday." Get your facts right if you are going to insist on keeping timelines straight.

General comments on this thread:

1) as already established, the premise makes no sense because of the timeline.

2) it amuses me that characters are named "possible fathers" even though we know for certain that the mother never had sex with the guy since we have her POV; the guy never met the mother; and/or the guy was a thousand miles away at time of conception. Ned a possible father to Dany?! Littlefinger a possible father to Jon?! Err, sure.

3) All of you are just speculating what Robb's will says. No one knows.

[Pecan]

Part of me wishes this was true. It would be kind of cool. But Ned Dayne is younger than Robb, so not possible.

[devilrob6]

If Edric would be a basterd son of Brandon and Ashara (which i don't believe), then why would he be lord of Starfall now? Even if he's the only living Dayne kid, he'd needed to be legitimized to inherit Starfall. In that case wouldn't that put him in the Stark inheritage line as well?

Anyways..isn't he the son of an older brother of Arthur and Ashara?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

If Edric would be a basterd son of Brandon and Ashara (which i don't believe), then why would he be lord of Starfall now? Even if he's the only living Dayne kid, he'd needed to be legitimized to inherit Starfall. In that case wouldn't that put him in the Stark inheritage line as well?

Anyways..isn't he the son of an older brother of Arthur and Ashara?

Yes :)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Uh huh. You realize there are almost a dozen characters named Sand and at least two girls from Bear Island whose mother won't acknowledge who the father is.

And which of those dozen Sands characters have a higborn mother and a unknown father?

Are you seriously saying that Mormonts who live in a small island by themself who are at the bottom of social status food chain are a serious exaple of what happens? Lol ok.

Oh and the most famous bastard in history, Daemon Blackfyre, whose unmarried, single mother refused to divulge who the father was until the father himself acknowledged him on his death bed?

Don't forget Elaena Targaryen, who had two bastard and then married once, twice or even trice afterwards.

Rhaenys you know better than that. You know that we have numerous examples that what the Targs do =/= what Westeros does. Elaena and Daena were princesses and they were Targs. By definition they are unique cases.

[Annara Snow]

And which of those dozen Sands characters have a higborn mother and a unknown father?

Are you seriously saying that Mormonts who live in a small island by themself who are at the bottom of social status food chain are a serious exaple of what happens? Lol ok.

Rhaenys you know better than that. You know that we have numerous examples that what the Targs do =/= what Westeros does. Elaena and Daena were princesses and they were Targs. By definition they are unique cases.

We don't know what it's like in Dorne. Most of those Sand characters are either 1) Oberyn's daughters or 2) we have no idea who their parents are. Why would you assume that the attitude in Dorne would be the same as in most of Westeros minus the Bear Island and minus what Targaryens are allowed to do, when their sexual mores and attitudes to sex as well as the position of women are all different than the rest of Westeros?

And while we don't know what they think about highborn women having bastards, we do know that they aren't concerned with unmarried highborn women having sex, and that they don't require them to be virgins up till marriage. There's no indication that Arianne is being especially rebellious regarding her sex life, or that people care that she's not a virgin.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

We don't know what it's like in Dorne. Most of those Sand characters are either 1) Oberyn's daughters or 2) we have no idea who their parents are. Why would you assume that the attitude in Dorne would be the same as in most of Westeros minus the Bear Island and minus what Targaryens are allowed to do, when their sexual mores and attitudes to sex as well as the position of women are all different than the rest of Westeros?

And while we don't know what they think about highborn women having bastards, we do know that they aren't concerned with unmarried highborn women having sex, and that they don't require them to be virgins up till marriage. There's no indication that Arianne is being especially rebellious regarding her sex life, or that people care that she's not a virgin.

And that's the thing. Arianne is having sex outside of marriage. Upon marriage, she won't be a virgin anymore, and it probably isn't such a secret that she isn't a virgin anymore, either.

Should Arianne become pregnant, it would be a different story. Can she terminate the pregnancy before anyone besides herself notices it? Not a problem. For the entire world, it will seem as if she was never pregnant at all. In the eyes of everyone else, there was no pregnancy.

Should Arianne become pregnant, and carry the child to term, her reputation would be gone. It doesn't matter, in that case, whether the child lives or dies. She was pregnant, and openly embraced the fact that she was pregnant, in such a scenario.

And that's exactly what Ashara did. She carried the child to term. It doesn't matter that the child died, in that scenario, whilst in womb. There was a child, that's all there is to it. The fact that, with no fault of her own, Ashara's child died, doesn't change her reputation. It doesn't make her a better "price" in the eyes of Westeros. The damage has already been done.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

We don't know what it's like in Dorne. Most of those Sand characters are either 1) Oberyn's daughters or 2) we have no idea who their parents are. Why would you assume that the attitude in Dorne would be the same as in most of Westeros minus the Bear Island and minus what Targaryens are allowed to do, when their sexual mores and attitudes to sex as well as the position of women are all different than the rest of Westeros?

Actually the Dornish bastards we know so far are all with highborn fathers; Daemon (Ryon Allyrion), Ellaria (Harmen Uller) and Sand Snakes. We have no Dornish bastard with a highborn mother and an unknown father. We know that in Dorne they are more sexual liberal but what we know from their Sands is that the only Sands we know have highborn fathers no one is with a highborn mother.

Again, Mormonts are simply nobodies; Poor and isolated. They are at the bottom of the social food chain.

And while we don't know what they think about highborn women having bastards, we do know that they aren't concerned with unmarried highborn women having sex, and that they don't require them to be virgins up till marriage. There's no indication that Arianne is being especially rebellious regarding her sex life, or that people care that she's not a virgin.

I never said anything about sex. I said that a living bastard would reduce the marriage possibilities to household knight and hedge knights, when a "dead" one could very easily been overlooked.