Daily Facts of Ice and Fire

[Mithras]

Using the dragons against the First Men would be literally "fighting fire with fire" and from what Leaf told Bran, we see that the CotF are not that kind of folk.

Skinchangers are rare and powerful skinchangers are rarer still. It is extremely difficult to bond with an adult animal. Dragons should be even harder to bond with.

[Free Northman Reborn]

No harder than warging a human being, though, and even Varamyr almost succeeds in that. And Varamyr is not nearly as powerful as Jon or Arya, nevermind Bran, who is in a different league altogether.

[Free Northman Reborn]

My view is that the Others' ability to animate dead creatures is merely a variant of a skinchanger's ability to warg into living things. We see this most perfectly demonstrated in Coldhands, who is likely also a dead creature warged by Bloodraven. In other words, Coldhands has no independent personality. "They killed him long ago". He is merely Bloodraven warged into a corpse.

So, if we are to see undead Ice dragons, I am convinced that living dragons could similarly be warged by powerful skinchangers.

[Mithras]

Varamyr didnot almost succeed. Thistle went mad. Varamyr was the most powerful skinchanger we know of and he was trained as such. He is far from being typical. The potential of the Stark kids might be greater or smaller than Varamyr but they are not as trained like him.

I think Jon's Targaryen blood and the very likely possibility that the eggs Illyrio gave to Dany being stolen Targaryen eggs will play a part in Jon skinchanging into a dragon.

[Free Northman Reborn]

No, Varamyr is a self taught savage, that grew up in a hovel. He has no inkling of the theory or mechanisms behind his ability. He just knows a few oral myths passed on to him by Haggon, his old tutor, himself a hovel dwelling savage.

Bran's level of understanding of the lore, potential and limitations of his abilities is godlike compared to Varamyr's.

And skinchangers in the distant past would have been far closer to the original teachers - the Children and their greenseers - and thus in touch with more of this lore than Varamyr ever could be.

As for Varamyr's success with Thistle. Varamyr was already weak and dying when he attempted it. And what he succeeded in doing with Thistle is more than sufficient to cause a dragon in midflight to crash into the ground and die.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

My view is that the Others' ability to animate dead creatures is merely a variant of a skinchanger's ability to warg into living things. We see this most perfectly demonstrated in Coldhands, who is likely also a dead creature warged by Bloodraven. In other words, Coldhands has no independent personality. "They killed him long ago". He is merely Bloodraven warged into a corpse.

So, if we are to see undead Ice dragons, I am convinced that living dragons could similarly be warged by powerful skinchangers.

I disagree about Coldhands. I'm going to be very disappointed if the "meat suit" theory is correct.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Well, in my view, the confusing dialogue in the scene where Meera confronts Coldhands about who he is really gives it away. The way in which the dialogue is constructed has Meera starting out asking who Coldhands is, then somehow questions about the Three Eyed Crow's identity get mixed into it, and then when Meera answers her own question by saying he is a monster, it comes out in such a way that it is confusing whether they are referring to Coldhands or the Three Eyed Crow.

And then Coldhands of course ends it by saying "Your Monster", Brandon Stark.

It is a very strong hint that Coldhands and the Three Eyed Crow are in fact the same person.

[Lord Varys]

Well, we don't really know whether weirwood arrows can hurt dragons yet with a certainty. If they were ever used to kill dragons this technique must have been used prior to the Conquest or in the days after the Dance (to kill some of the surviving Targaryen dragons).

Poison may have been used to get rid of some of the last Targaryen dragons, but most likely not on any ancient Westerosi dragons, or on some of them which have been imported by the Valyrians on an attempt to invaded Westeros.

That dragons can be killed by piercing the eyes is sort of confirmed by the death of Meraxes, although we don't really know whether this is actually the case. But what we do know is that old dragons' fire is very hot, and it is utter madness to try to attack their head from a close range.

If (modern day) dragons have been artificially created by Valyrian magic, then all bets are off. Perhaps the bones of 'Westerosi dragons' do only belong to a species similar to modern day dragons? We don't know that, and cannot really judge it, because we can't take a look at those bones (however dragon bones seem to have a certain look, and thus the maester can possibly correctly identify them).

'The Kings of Winter' page also revealed that skinchangers were much more common during the First Men era, and thus they and greenseers would have been even more common (and more powerful) during the days of the wars between the First Men and the Children, and thus those skinchangers and greenseers would have weaponized dragons just as the present day greenseer Bloodraven weaponizes and uses ravens - if they could have done it with dragons.

I don't think all the Westerosi dragons died during the Long Night, but perhaps most of them. Perhaps only one survived, and he became the mount of the Last Hero? The idea that dragons played no role back then when they are going to play a role now does not seem right to me.

As to skinchanging into dragons:

Perhaps the Mel-Varamyr encounter could illustrate the problem. Varamyr was really crippled when Mel magically incinerated his eagle. Now, what if the innate magical heat of a dragon 'burns the soul' of every skinchanger trying to control it? That does not sound completely unreasonable. A skinchanger with dragon blood could not face such a problem, though. On the other hand though: Why the hell would Jon need to be a skinchanger to become a dragonrider? He has dragon blood anyway... But perhaps Tyrion or Dany have the potential to become skinchangers? Assuming that there are First Men among Aerys' ancestors...

Humans are relatively easy to skinchange into, at least if you are a very powerful greenseer like Bran. He controls Hodor, and he has also a much better hold over the ravens than Bloodraven ever had - who, as far as we know, may only have realized that he is a skinchanger and potential greenseer very late in life. Nothing from the D&E stories suggests that he was rumored to be a skinchanger during the days of Aerys I - he is not accompanied by animals (although he would have been smart enough to hide that ability if he had discovered it, of course).

As to wights:

My guess is that skinchangers may be able to sever the band between the Others and the wights. I did not get the impression that Bloodraven was speaking through Coldhands. My guess is that wights are created using ice magic in a twisted version of the fire ritual resurrecting people, but the resurrected being is henceforth controlled by the magic that resurrected it until that spell is broken somehow. The Others would have to be very powerful skinchangers if they controlled all their wights with that technique, and wights attacked/killed by fire would also have the same sort of impact on them - perhaps even much more devastating - than the burning of the eagle had on Varamyr (thus many Others would have to be psychologically broken after experiencing how a wight under their control was burned by fire. And this happened a lot in recent times.

[DMC]

From what we know, Harren merely hid behind his walls and defied Aegon. None of the Westerosi was familiar with how to fight dragons and the extent of their destruction. Only the Martells were successful.

Fair enough. Guess I'm just assuming the totally awesome kickass castle dude built would include sufficient defenses, and those would be activated when there's a flying lizard burning things...

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Lighting a eagle on fire will kill the bird. Possessing a dragon will not kill the possessor I'm thinking.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Lord Varys,

Lots to respond to there, but the last comment kind of awakened a memory for me.

As you say, the Others would have to experience the pain of burning if a wight under their control gets set on fire. And thus Leaf's comment in Dance is particularly interesting.

One of Bran's party says that "Fire kills them". Leaf then corrects the statement by saying, "Fire burns them".

Interesting, if the Others indeed warg into their corpses.

EDIT

Regarding different species of dragons: My take is that dragons arose from a central point, very recently (like 12000 years ago or thereabouts), and quickly spread across the entire world - they are after all the most mobile large creatures imaginable, and utterly dominant predators.

The Valyrian dragons are said to have been "discovered" by the Valyrian shepherds, not created by them. They were discovered nesting in the Fourteen Fires. In short, they were an isolated surviving colony of dragons, after all other known dragons were wiped out many centuries before.

[Free Northman Reborn]

How about this, for an idea.

So dragons are an alien invasive species that were introduced to the world 12000 years ago, either by accident or for a purpose - maybe in the hope that they could be used as a weapon against the First Men.

Their power and strength, however, quickly led to their population growing out of control, until they threatened to become the dominant species on the planet.

The same guys that allowed them to be introduced to the world, then had to devise a way to eradicate them. It took them many thousands of years, and many blood sacrifices, but finally they managed to cook up the Long Night, to achieve this. The Long Night succeeded in doing so, however it also went out of control and almost wiped out all living species, only this time through Ice instead of through Fire.

The Long Night was then finally overcome - again, through the magic of the Children, who once again had to help undo their own magic that went out of control.

Only, thousands of years later they realized that a small colony of dragons had actually survived, in the Valyrian volcanos. By now, the Children were much weakened by the First Men, and no longer the magical force they once were. Realizing the threat posed by dragons, the Children devised another magical weapon - the Horn of Joramun - to wipe out the sanctuary of this new dragon population, before they grew too numerous.

This Horn was eventually used on Valyria, causing the Doom.

Only now the Children were all but spent, their population dwindling to nothing. And the Others, defeated but not destroyed so many years ago, are gathering their power to return once again. Bringing us to the current day.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Guys apparently it's true that one can f*** with demons in Asshai, if they want so :cool4:

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

Friends. I got a copy today at Target in MN usa. Don't want to post spoilers where all can see and be pissed at me but ask away here or PM me if there is something you are dying to know about the book. Its in my hands :)

[Bob's Warhammer]

If the book is meant to be a gift from the citadel to the new King,(Robert), then a Targ heavy book with a Targ cover would not have been popular. :)

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

^The book is addressed to the "most esteemed and gracious" current king.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Friends. I got a copy today at Target in MN usa. Don't want to post spoilers where all can see and be pissed at me but ask away here or PM me if there is something you are dying to know about the book. Its in my hands :)

Do we have words for the Houses we haven't been told already?

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

^ Not that I've found as yet, which is unfortunate. Each section on the great Houses has some cool new depictions of their sigil surrounded by the sigils of their chief bannermen.

The text reads like GRRM provided some hard facts like key names and battles and who slew who etc and the rest is filler verse from the co authors

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Well, in my view, the confusing dialogue in the scene where Meera confronts Coldhands about who he is really gives it away. The way in which the dialogue is constructed has Meera starting out asking who Coldhands is, then somehow questions about the Three Eyed Crow's identity get mixed into it, and then when Meera answers her own question by saying he is a monster, it comes out in such a way that it is confusing whether they are referring to Coldhands or the Three Eyed Crow.

And then Coldhands of course ends it by saying "Your Monster", Brandon Stark.

It is a very strong hint that Coldhands and the Three Eyed Crow are in fact the same person.

I didn't find it confusing at all. They were talking about Coldhands. They switched to talking about the Three Eyed Crow. The Three Eyed Crow is the monster in question. The Three Eyed Crow is Bran(don Stark)'s monster.

Then again I picked up on Aegon showing up back in the first book. Clearly I am a strange individual.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I didn't find it confusing at all. They were talking about Coldhands. They switched to talking about the Three Eyed Crow. The Three Eyed Crow is the monster in question. The Three Eyed Crow is Bran(don Stark)'s monster.

Then again I picked up on Aegon showing up back in the first book. Clearly I am a strange individual.

I disagree. They were talking about Coldhands.

The fact that some people think they were talking about the Three Eyed Crow demonstrates exactly my point - namely that the dialogue was deliberately interwoven to create confusion in that regard.