Daily Facts of Ice and Fire

[Lord Varys]

Essentially, the Baratheons seem to be Durrandons. That's reflected by the fact that Orys took arms and words of the Durrandons, and I guess much of the stormy, unyielding temper of the Baratheons goes back to the Durrandons, not the Baratheons.

[Maia]

No, I hate Orys and Aegon and their unprovoked wars on the people of Westeros that led to the murder of hundreds. Argillac was getting old without a son and wanted to set his daughter up as Queen successfully and Aegon was an arrogant arse. .

Unprovoked, really? You do realize that multilation of an envoy is in the same ballpark as breach of guestright? And that historically it was considered a 100% just casus belli? May I also add that offering the lands that he didn't own as his daughter's dowry was fraudulent? Finally, nowhere is it even hinted that Argillac intended for Argella and Aegon to follow him as rulers of the Stormlands. It was never a part of his offer. They were supposed to create a buffer state between Hoare-held Riverlands and the Stormlands, for which they would have had to fight Harren the Black every step of the way.

Maybe Argillac intended to re-marry and try to sire more sons, maybe he had a bastard or a relative in mind as a heir, but the man also died in that battle, which allowed Argella to make her move.

[Moondancer]

Dwellers of the remote Isle of Toads have fishy features including webbed hands and feet. #FactsofIceandFire

[Lord Varys]

Well, that would be the first H.P. Lovecraft reference in TWoiaF!

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Dwellers of the remote Isle of Toads have fishy features including webbed hands and feet. #FactsofIceandFire

Is it normal to get aroused by a daily fact. Because I just did o.o

Worldbuilding <3

Who else have these features? Yeah thats true, the Borrels of something island. I assume these toad men are black as Isle of Toads is a Sothoryosi island.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Unprovoked, really? You do realize that multilation of an envoy is in the same ballpark as breach of guestright? And that historically it was considered a 100% just casus belli? May I also add that offering the lands that he didn't own as his daughter's dowry was fraudulent? Finally, nowhere is it even hinted that Argillac intended for Argella and Aegon to follow him as rulers of the Stormlands. It was never a part of his offer. They were supposed to create a buffer state between Hoare-held Riverlands and the Stormlands, for which they would have had to fight Harren the Black every step of the way.

Maybe Argillac intended to re-marry and try to sire more sons, maybe he had a bastard or a relative in mind as a heir, but the man also died in that battle, which allowed Argella to make her move.

When you send an envoy with such an insulting message you know you will get a reaction?

Argillac had a claim to those lands that could be used. Between them they could have gotten the Hoares out. I don't see the big deal in that. Argillac was getting on a bit. The buffer state suggests he doesn't see much fight left in him long term.

'The Sons of the Dragons' reading mentioned that Orys died of the wounds he suffered during the battle against the Vulture King's army. There is nothing fishy about that, especially since Orys would have been of advanced age in 37 AC. I guess he was about the same age as Aegon, or slightly younger, since these two apparently had a really close relationship. That would have been different, I imagine, if Orys had been 5-10 years younger or older as Aegon.

There are also hints that Orys and Argella had multiple children - his son Davos was mentioned, as well as another, Raymont Baratheon, the knight of the KG who defended Aenys I and his family when the Poor Fellows tried to murder them in their sleep. That could suggest that they got along pretty well.

And Cersei slept with Robert enough to make 3 kids believable but they hated each other and she had him killed.

Essentially, the Baratheons seem to be Durrandons. That's reflected by the fact that Orys took arms and words of the Durrandons, and I guess much of the stormy, unyielding temper of the Baratheons goes back to the Durrandons, not the Baratheons.

And the genetic marker of Black hair and maybe blue eyes 'But Argilac had grown older; his famous mane of black hair had gone grey'. And the nicknames they had were based on them being Storm Lords and not whatever Orys was before he rocked up in Storm's End as Argella's sperm donor. :P

[Veltigar]

Unprovoked, really? You do realize that multilation of an envoy is in the same ballpark as breach of guestright? And that historically it was considered a 100% just casus belli? May I also add that offering the lands that he didn't own as his daughter's dowry was fraudulent? Finally, nowhere is it even hinted that Argillac intended for Argella and Aegon to follow him as rulers of the Stormlands. It was never a part of his offer. They were supposed to create a buffer state between Hoare-held Riverlands and the Stormlands, for which they would have had to fight Harren the Black every step of the way.
Maybe Argillac intended to re-marry and try to sire more sons, maybe he had a bastard or a relative in mind as a heir, but the man also died in that battle, which allowed Argella to make her move.

Glad to see that someone else already answered. Saves me the trouble.

Yet whose traits are dominant? Dragonfire is put out in the storm Veltigar!

How many Targs are in the Baratheon tree? I've can only remember 1, Rhaelle. Orys probably was a bastard Targ, so 2 in 300 years? Then there is the Durrendon millenias and the dragons don't look so hot in comparison.

The Durrendon millenias? Lol the Baratheons also have thousands of years of Targaryen blood in them. And the worldbook might reveal other Targ ancestors for the Baratheons. The mother of Jocelyn Baratheon for instance.

[LordBloodraven]

Dwellers of the remote Isle of Toads have fishy features including webbed hands and feet. #FactsofIceandFire

So Nimble Dick was right. Squishers do exist

[Fat Mac]

The Durrendon millenias? Lol the Baratheons also have thousands of years of Targaryen blood in them. And the worldbook might reveal other Targ ancestors for the Baratheons. The mother of Jocelyn Baratheon for instance.

I think ANV's point was that the Baratheons are basically Durrandons, in look and practice. The Durrandon blood is much more important to Baratheon identity than Targaryen blood.

Also, the Durrandon's are demigods according to legend, which not even the Targaryens can claim ;)

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I think ANV's point was that the Baratheons are basically Durrandons, in look and practice. The Durrandon blood is much more important to Baratheon identity than Targaryen blood.

Also, the Durrandon's are demigods according to legend, which not even the Targaryens can claim ;)

Exactly. We see the Starks have two Manderleys in their tree in the same time but we wouldn't say that the Manderley part was a huge part of the Stark identity. The change in house name is deceiving.

There may be more Targs in the tree we don't know yet but as of yet, we have nothing that suggests its left anything lingering. Shireen's dragon dream is the only one I can think of? Their relationship with storms is much more interesting. The storm during The Last Storm, the storm that killed Steffan and Cassana, the snow Storm that Stannis is wading through to get to Winterfell etc...I think I'm going to be the only person looking at WOIAF and trying to see if someone mentions the weather! :p

[Melisandre's hair]

Frog people FTW

I'll be waiting for any Carcosa mentioning in the book :drunk:

[DMC]

On Aegon's Casus Belli:

While the envoy decapitation is a sufficient act of war, Aegon had no legit rationale for invading the rest of Westeros. Sure, the Riverlands were mostly happy he torched Harrenhal (which is obviously why that's where he started), but the Field of Fire is the real-world equivalent of a war crime. Weaponized dragons cannot be compared to middle-aged warfare, unless you want to stretch it with heavy artillery. The more apt comparison is to biological, chemical and nuclear weapons, and each has been against the international norm since World War I. So yeah, that's a long way of saying Aegon's actions aren't really that defensible, or at least there's no way of not calling him a warlord.

On the Durrandons:

The idea of them as demigods caught my interest. When you think about it, their origin story is most like the Iron Islands in terms of deities being involved. Do the Martell's have any origin description pre-Nymeria? I can't recall.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

Like hell. The only way that is going to happen is if Dany or Aegon wins and they won't.

Or Jon. Can't see house Baratheon surviving if either three sit on the throne at the end, which is very likely imo. Even if Jon doesn't hold anything against Robert for killing Rhaegar, it would be very unwise to legitmize Robert's bastards.

[King Aegon The Conqueror]

When you send an envoy with such an insulting message you know you will get a reaction?

Argillac had a claim to those lands that could be used. Between them they could have gotten the Hoares out. I don't see the big deal in that. Argillac was getting on a bit. The buffer state suggests he doesn't see much fight left in him long term.

And Cersei slept with Robert enough to make 3 kids believable but they hated each other and she had him killed.

And the genetic marker of Black hair and maybe blue eyes 'But Argilac had grown older; his famous mane of black hair had gone grey'. And the nicknames they had were based on them being Storm Lords and not whatever Orys was before he rocked up in Storm's End as Argella's sperm donor. :P

You are the most biased person I have ever seen ever on the forum. You have a messed up sense of morals if you think Aegon's response was begging for Argillac having a bad reaction.

Maia's post was on point and it's like you're completely oblivious to it. Set yourself right. I'm not saying your opinion is wrong or anything but you're just far too biased.

[DMC]

Or Jon. Can't see house Baratheon surviving if either three sit on the throne at the end, which is very likely imo. Even if Jon doesn't hold anything against Robert for killing Rhaegar, it would be very unwise to legitmize Robert's bastards.

Um, what? If Jon ends up on the throne why the hell wouldn't he legitimize the bastards, especially if there's no other heirs? Dude's been raised as a bastard. Not like he has anything personal against the Baratheons, beyond being unimpressed with Robert and annoyed by Stannis.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Or Jon. Can't see house Baratheon surviving if either three sit on the throne at the end, which is very likely imo. Even if Jon doesn't hold anything against Robert for killing Rhaegar, it would be very unwise to legitmize Robert's bastards.

Jon would legitimise a bastard, he would have to be clever about it though. I don't think he would legitimise Edric with Florent ambition behind him. And Jon was raised with a good perspective on why everything went down as it did. And he's a sensible guy, the son shouldn't pay for the crimes of the father. I mean, is Jon responsible for Rhaegar's stupidity? Or his Grandpa's madness?

You are the most biased person I have ever seen ever on the forum. You have a messed up sense of morals if you think Aegon's response was begging for Argillac having a bad reaction.

Maia's post was on point and it's like you're completely oblivious to it. Set yourself right. I'm not saying your opinion is wrong or anything but you're just far too biased.

I have an opinion I'm not going to lie. The man offers you his princess daughter, heir to a kingdom as a third wife. You decline, but instead of graciously declining you offer the King of the Stormlands your rumoured baseborn bastard half brother for her. She's a princess! She brings a Kingdom. What does Orys Baratheon bring to the table?

Now, I love my baseborn bastards. I, myself am a baseborn bastard. And by the rules of today, we wouldn't react the same way. But in their world, Aegon, Lord of Dragonstone has just took it upon himself to slap the King of the Stormlands and degrade the worth of his only daughter.

[RumHam]

I have an opinion I'm not going to lie. The man offers you his princess daughter, heir to a kingdom as a third wife. You decline, but instead of graciously declining you offer the King of the Stormlands your rumoured baseborn bastard half brother for her. She's a princess! She brings a Kingdom. What does Orys Baratheon bring to the table?

The support of the Targaryens in defending his lands against his enemies? It seems he really needed some help, a lot of the lands he offered Aegon were no longer even his.

[Free Northman Reborn]

You are the most biased person I have ever seen ever on the forum. You have a messed up sense of morals if you think Aegon's response was begging for Argillac having a bad reaction.

Maia's post was on point and it's like you're completely oblivious to it. Set yourself right. I'm not saying your opinion is wrong or anything but you're just far too biased.

And we have the winner for the Most Ironic Post Ever. Congratulations. Your prize will be a pot and a kettle. Both black.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

The support of the Targaryens in defending his lands against his enemies? It seems he really needed some help, a lot of the lands he offered Aegon were no longer even his.

But that isn't a guarantee. Who is this Orys? Is he blood kin to Aegon? What loyalty does Aegon owe him? Argilac would be much better looking for another Prince, even if its a second or third son knowing that their father or brother would be obligated to help. The claim over the Crownlands is no bad thing, you have the army of the Stormlands behind Argella along with what you can muster to kick the Hoares out.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

Um, what? If Jon ends up on the throne why the hell wouldn't he legitimize the bastards, especially if there's no other heirs? Dude's been raised as a bastard. Not like he has anything personal against the Baratheons, beyond being unimpressed with Robert and annoyed by Stannis.

Because any disgruntled Southron lords can use his bastards as a rallying point to rise up against his rule.

There are always heirs. If House Baratheon is exterminated, then Storm's End goes to the house that has strongest claim through Durrandon/Baratheon blood.

As for the the whole Aegon debate, I do agree that he did have sufficient reason to declare war on the Stormlands, but declaring war against an enitre continent? Clearly Aegon had no plans of making an alliance with any of the Kings. He sent him the insulting offer on purpose.