Free Northman Reborn Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Still miffed that the Targs got to monopolize the cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Well, the Doom of Valyria and its causes should be discussed in the chapter of that name in some detail. They most likely do not just recount the story we already know in there... TNR, if my knowledge of biology is not wrong, then the descendant of a pure-born Andal and a pure-born First Man would have about 50% of the genes of each parent, suggesting that all of the noble families became 'mongrels' shortly after the Andals arrived in Westeros. They even more so than the smallfolk, since they would be confined to their villages and farms, and only intermarry with the people close by, and thus there could be be enclaves of pure-blooded First Men smallfolk in remote places in the South (say, on Crackclaw Point, in the Mountains of the Moon, and elsewhere). The Manderlys should be a First Men house originally, due to their name. The Mander most likely has that name since the dawn of time (river names do not change often or at all), and the Manderlys at least claim that they gave their name to the river, not the other way around. That the Andals had a High King or something like that when the invasion began is also far from certain. The impression we get is that the Andal invasion fragmented Westeros even further because many of the conquering Andals became petty kings themselves (e.g. the alliance of Andal petty kings fighting against the River King, Tristifer IV.). This does not suggest that the many Andals were subject to a higher authority in Andalos (which, in turn, may never had a real high king unifying all the Andals - at least not necessarily during the time of the invasion). I'd also doubt it was this few Andals who came to Westeros. Yes, there should have been more First Men in general, but even with their superior armor and weaponry I doubt that too few Andals would have been able to successfully overtake all the First Men kingdoms and stay permanently in power. That is, in those kingdoms they actually stayed in power - which technically seems only to be the Vale, really. In all the other kingdoms they intermarried with the First Men, and overtook their religion and culture, but the royal bloodlines of the First Men prevailed - the Durrandons, Gardeners, and Lannisters prevailed. And we already know that Storm's End and Casterly Rock were never taken by siege of storm, so the 'Andal conquest' clearly has to be put into perspective. As to the iron stuff: Depending on how old the culture of the Rhoynar is, they could have taught both the Andals and the early Valyrians the art of iron-making. However, I guess the Yi Ti and the other cultures in the East got their own their own. The Ironborn could be an entirely different matter. We don't know for a certainty that the first Ironborn were truly First Men. The Children certainly were not stupid when they tried to stem the flood of First Men by the Breaking, suggesting that the early First Men were, in general, no seafaring people. That, in turn, could also explain why the Ironborn could effectively rule all the western coasts, even Oldtown, the Arbor, and the Lords on the banks of the Mander. Surely the whole salt wife thing would have made the Ironborn pretty early a First Men people, but the fact that the Ironborn are so remarkably different from mainstream First Men culture (great seafarers, religion, ignorant warrior-culture, etc.) could be a hint that they are not as closely related to the First Men as one might think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I think it is mentioned in the one of the readings that the Andals were vastly outnumbered by the First Men, hence their need to marry into their ruling families to solidify their rule. Think of the Andals along the lines of the Conquistadors, only there being no smallpox to wipe out the original population of the region they conquered. Also, because their technology was not as radically advanced as to include firearms, the numbers were not quite as scewed as that of the Conquistadors versus the Mesoamericans (1000:1). But a ratio of 10:1 in favor of the First Men is very reasonable. Regarding the 50/50 bloodline split when an Andal married a First Men lord. Yes, that is true, in the first generation. But with a 10:1 numbers advantage in favor of the First Men, the Andal portion of the genes would be drastically diluted as the generations went by, until it resembled roughly the 10:1 ratio above. With the obvious exception that for southron nobles the Andal blood would be somewhat higher - say around 20-30% perhaps, while among commoners it would be lower. But given the comparative starting population numbers, First Man blood should be overwhelmingly dominant across all of Westeros, and even more so in the North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 "Women of Bayasabhad protects their city" :o I guess it's the same for Kayakayana, Asabhad and Shamyriana. It was probably a Hyrkoon tradition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Still miffed that the Targs got to monopolize the cover. :agree: :agree: :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Flandrensis Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Still miffed that the Targs got to monopolize the cover. Me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Today we learn - Most agree that the Doom of Valyria was caused by a vast chain of volcanoes erupting at once. Thrilling new information. NOT.I think that's how the info is going to be for the next couple of days stuff we already know or a little new information nothing really big. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moondancer Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Whom can we expect reviews from? (Tor.com, Wertzone?) I expect a few of them, in the days leading up to release. (BUT you can start right now, guys.) Is something being planned on this site?? What's forum like when a huge publication lands? Is it tumbleweed all over the place except for designated thread where people post "still reading, no sleep, more coffee O M G Page 230!!... - I know, right! So epic"?? How are the spoileristas punished? :D Molten gold? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Widow of Coldmoat Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I think it is mentioned in the one of the readings that the Andals were vastly outnumbered by the First Men, hence their need to marry into their ruling families to solidify their rule. Think of the Andals along the lines of the Conquistadors, only there being no smallpox to wipe out the original population of the region they conquered. Also, because their technology was not as radically advanced as to include firearms, the numbers were not quite as scewed as that of the Conquistadors versus the Mesoamericans (1000:1). But a ratio of 10:1 in favor of the First Men is very reasonable. Regarding the 50/50 bloodline split when an Andal married a First Men lord. Yes, that is true, in the first generation. But with a 10:1 numbers advantage in favor of the First Men, the Andal portion of the genes would be drastically diluted as the generations went by, until it resembled roughly the 10:1 ratio above. With the obvious exception that for southron nobles the Andal blood would be somewhat higher - say around 20-30% perhaps, while among commoners it would be lower. But given the comparative starting population numbers, First Man blood should be overwhelmingly dominant across all of Westeros, and even more so in the North. While the Andals may have been vastly outnumbered, they also might have very much disproportionately married into noble houses. Based on what we know there doesnt appear to be a large about of intermarriage between nobles and smallfolk. So it could be very much possible that while the Andals were vastly outnumbered compared to the whole population, they were much less so amongst the nobility. Therefore, south of the neck, it might be possible to have the nobles possessing much more than 20-30% Andal "blood" with the smallfolk possessing much less. Of course, the smallfolk populations themselves could be Andalized too, without needing inter-class marriages. It seems the smallfolk of Westeros are much less likely to live long, or to reproduce, than the nobility. Therefore if the Andals married primarily into the nobility, that itself could lead to the population becoming more Andal (by blood, not just by culture). Let's also not forget that the way Westeros works culturally, you're much more likely to see smallfolk who are illegitimate descendants of nobility (especially if first night was practiced) than nobles who are the illegitimate descendants of smallfolk. Therefore you could see Andal ancestry work its way to the smallfolk from the nobility in that way, especially over hundreds of generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 No idea on reviews. The writing is not the difficult, the publishing part is... But I guess Ran and Linda cannot possibly make a review of their own book here on this site ;-). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Baela Targaryen Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Here is a review: http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2jc7u5/spoilers_all_advance_review_the_world_of_ice_and/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Here is a review: http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2jc7u5/spoilers_all_advance_review_the_world_of_ice_and/Thanks!!! I want this book like yesterday but we've waited for it for years what's two more weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Whom can we expect reviews from? (Tor.com, Wertzone?) I expect a few of them, in the days leading up to release. (BUT you can start right now, guys.)Is something being planned on this site??What's forum like when a huge publication lands? Is it tumbleweed all over the place except for designated thread where people post "still reading, no sleep, more coffee O M G Page 230!!... - I know, right! So epic"??How are the spoileristas punished? :D Molten gold? :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Still miffed that the Targs got to monopolize the cover. Its like nobody realises that the majority of ASOIAF fans aren't that hot on Targs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Most people like the Targaryens well enough. They are not my favourite house, but I have no problem with them or the fact that they are the only house represented on the cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I kinda doubt that GRRM would post a book full of lies as there would be absolutely no point in it. That's the thing about Westerlands readings. According to it, Andals didn't start to rule Westerlands, they did not take any power from local aristocracy. Lannisters defeated Andals but then decided to befriend them and intermarry with them because Andals just did not stop coming. So, basically Lannisters were ruling Westerlands before Andal invasion and after it uninterrupted making House Lannister a fully First Men house by origin. That's different from Tullys, Arryns and others who are fully Andal houses by origin. Tully isn't fully Andal: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Tully They date back to the Age of Heroes. And no, I don't think he will write a book of complete lies but I think before the Andals, where there is no writing but a lot of oral myth will be kept mysterious. I don't think we are in for a factual account of the Age of Heroes. Just what Westeros thinks happened in the Age of Heroes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Most people like the Targaryens well enough. They are not my favourite house, but I have no problem with them or the fact that they are the only house represented on the cover. To be fair, Torrhen Stark made the back cover. Although he is kneeling to Aegon Targaryen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 To be fair, Torrhen Stark made the back cover. Although he is kneeling to Aegon Targaryen... Oh really, that must be a beautiful back cover :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yolkboy Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Oh really, that must be a beautiful back cover :) I saw it at LonCon, it's nice. Pics here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Flandrensis Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 If I'd known that a full half of the book was about the Targs I wouldn't have ordered it. Seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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