Daily Facts of Ice and Fire

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

When not copying Harper Voyager @gardedenuit is more or less drawing their "facts" from current canon. As Ran indicated, at least one of them deals with a subject that doesn't appear in the World Book. Many of the others, including the Lannister one, can be attributed to interpretation (and possibly faulty at that) of what we already knew.

FNR-- wrt iron, there is evidence of its existence in Westeros pre Andals. My guess is, rather like in the real world, it developed simultaneously in multiple locations making its chronology difficult to pin down. (And as you suggested, making that particular "fact" somewhat suspect as well)

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Well its my theory Lann wasn't real. That the trickster is a trick. That Lannisters wanted to measure up to their ancient peers the Starks, Gardners, Durrandon, Greyjoys nor could they match the Arryns who seemed to be revered so they came up with a myth that could never be proven.

If they have First Men blood through the female line they still have first men blood. Blood is the same in men and women. If their First Men blood is meaningless because its from a female, the Stark's First Men blood is equally worthless because it comes from a man. The characters can buy into that nonsense, there is no excuse for us to. I don't believe the Lannisters are a First Men bloodline. Not least because of the Andal style name like we see with the Mallisters, founded by Mal the space pirate presumably.

Of course, I could be proved completely wrong in 2 weeks, that is half the fun :p

[Lord Varys]

We cannot completely rule out that Lann was an Andal who just arrived in Westeros thousands of years prior to the others. Just because the Andals migrated to Westeros later, doesn't mean they weren't there back then. And Lann supposedly was an adventurer.

However, my guess is that later singers and septons simply re-imagined Lann as an Andal. By the way, I suspect that TWoIaF will deal with the question from whom exactly the present-day Lannisters descend in the male line...

As to the iron-working:

Well, that's true, as far as I know. And Illyrio has already stated in ADwD that the Pentoshi believe that the Andals learned the art of iron-working from the Rhoynar, so that's no big deal. We could therefore reasonably assume that the ancient Ghiscari and early Valyrians were only working bronze.

This makes the legendary 'dragon steel' even more a mystery, considering that people during the Long Night apparently had a concept of 'steel'. That could be a hint that some people of Rhoynish ancestry were among the people fighting against the Others, perhaps working in union with some proto-Valyrians and their dragons to make dragon steel (if this was something like Valyrian steel).

[RumHam]

This makes the legendary 'dragon steel' even more a mystery, considering that people during the Long Night apparently had a concept of 'steel'. That could be a hint that some people of Rhoynish ancestry were among the people fighting against the Others, perhaps working in union with some proto-Valyrians and their dragons to make dragon steel (if this was something like Valyrian steel).

I could also be that the Andals translated the First Men rune for "Very strong sword metal that can defeat Others" to dragonsteel.

[yolkboy]

"The Rhoynar people are said to be the first to learn the art of iron-making #Resourceful #FactsofIceandFire https://t.co/IVbxcCZ72f" - 14/10/14

As LG said, it's simply stated that Rhoynar invented iron, not that they were the first to so. Technological advances can happen in multiple places around the world, as is true of our world.

Old Nan, who grrm said is accurate, said there was iron during the Long Night.

The Iron Islands was named that pre-Andal and there's families from there with Iron in their name pre-Andal.

This means not only did First Men have iron - but iron is a First Men word.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

There is zero evidence for any of it though. Almost everything anyone can say is speculation.

The correct literary term is called "inference.". The text does not say so explicitly, but it can be plausibly inferred that the Karstark lands were Bolton lands given to the younger Stark son who quelled a Bolton rebellion 1,000 years ago.

[The Dragon Demands]

FWIW, Lhazar is not mentioned at all in the world book. Not sure where these French tweets are coming from.

This is a serious problem. Please try to confer with them.

Oh great, so they're just making stuff up?

The Rhoynar people are said to be the first to learn the art of iron-making

Wait...I know they learned it before the Andals did, but wasn't the Ghiscari Empire even older?

[Free Northman Reborn]

The correct literary term is called "inference.". The text does not say so explicitly, but it can be plausibly inferred that the Karstark lands were Bolton lands given to the younger Stark son who quelled a Bolton rebellion 1,000 years ago.

That assumes that the Boltons were the only lords that ever rebelled against the Starks over the millenia.

This while we know that just in the last 100 years the Skagosi rebelled, and that the Greystarks rebelled 3000 years ago or thereabouts.

So of the 4 instances of rebellion we know of in northern history, 50% were in fact by non Boltons.

[Dofs]

There has been extensive discussion on the Lannister origins.

And the likely answer that fits most of the available data is that Lann the Clever was probably a First Man guardsman or some other retainer of the Casterlys, back in the Age of Heroes, who eventually managed to marry Lord Casterly's daughter and thereby gain ownership of Casterly Rock.

And then many thousands of years later the Andals arrived and married a distant female descendant of Lann, thus gaining control of the Rock through marriage just like Lann originally did. They merely retained the Lannister name to solidify their legitimacy.

And this is hardly unique, as it is probably the standard way in which most First Men kingdoms were taken over by the Andals. Much like the Starks took over the Neck by marrying the Marsh King's daughter after defeating him.

So the statement that the "Lannisters originate from the First Men but look like Andals" is rather misleading, when seen in the above context. They have some First Man blood in them, through the female line. But this is the case for pretty much every other person in Westeros as well.

Well, in Westerlands readings it was said that Andals didn't really take over Westerlands but were just allowed to live there by the Lannisters meaning that Lannisters as an official house predate an Andal invasion and nobody took over them. This contradicts the information we have in appendices thought, so we will have to wait for the actual book to make sure.

[Ulthosian Stark]

This doesn't have much to do with the current facts since its been out for a while, but I really wish the Dornish still used turtle shell shields like their Rhoynish predecessors, would have made the Gregor v oberyn fight even more awesome

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Well, in Westerlands readings it was said that Andals didn't really take over Westerlands but were just allowed to live there by the Lannisters meaning that Lannisters as an official house predate an Andal invasion and nobody took over them. This contradicts the information we have in appendices thought, so we will have to wait for the actual book to make sure.

Or its written by a maester for a half lannister king and tows an official line. I have suspiscions that the Westerlings having that descriptive name as if they were the westerling First Men were more than they seem to be today. Their ancestors may have been the first to enter West Westeros after crossing the arm.

[The Dragon Demands]

The Andal invasion or invasions were sort of based on the Anglo-Saxon migrations.

I think the idea is that in most cases, they followed the sort of "invasion" pattern observed in the Anglo-Norman invasion of Ireland in the mid-1100's: You don't just wipe out the local aristocracy, you intermarry with their daughters to cement your rule over the surviving population, which includes a large number of native peasants.

Exactly how many Andals came as a total number vs First Men is difficult to guess...I mean was the population now 50% Andal, 50% First Men, and then they spent 6,000 years intermarrying? Hard to say.

But with the aristocracy, that's a common tactic - the local aristocracy "survives" by intermarrying with the invaders, to get the best chance they have of survival (while the invaders get to legitimize their claim to rule that specific region). Nor are the Lannisters the only examples: the Tullys, the Highgardens, I think also the Gardeners have some First Men background, as do the Blackwoods and Brackens.

[Dofs]

Or its written by a maester for a half lannister king and tows an official line. I have suspiscions that the Westerlings having that descriptive name as if they were the westerling First Men were more than they seem to be today. Their ancestors may have been the first to enter West Westeros after crossing the arm.

I kinda doubt that GRRM would post a book full of lies as there would be absolutely no point in it.

The Andal invasion or invasions were sort of based on the Anglo-Saxon migrations.

I think the idea is that in most cases, they followed the sort of "invasion" pattern observed in the Anglo-Norman invasion of Ireland in the mid-1100's: You don't just wipe out the local aristocracy, you intermarry with their daughters to cement your rule over the surviving population, which includes a large number of native peasants.

Exactly how many Andals came as a total number vs First Men is difficult to guess...I mean was the population now 50% Andal, 50% First Men, and then they spent 6,000 years intermarrying? Hard to say.

But with the aristocracy, that's a common tactic - the local aristocracy "survives" by intermarrying with the invaders, to get the best chance they have of survival (while the invaders get to legitimize their claim to rule that specific region). Nor are the Lannisters the only examples: the Tullys, the Highgardens, I think also the Gardeners have some First Men background, as do the Blackwoods and Brackens.

That's the thing about Westerlands readings. According to it, Andals didn't start to rule Westerlands, they did not take any power from local aristocracy. Lannisters defeated Andals but then decided to befriend them and intermarry with them because Andals just did not stop coming. So, basically Lannisters were ruling Westerlands before Andal invasion and after it uninterrupted making House Lannister a fully First Men house by origin. That's different from Tullys, Arryns and others who are fully Andal houses by origin.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Wait...I know they learned it before the Andals did, but wasn't the Ghiscari Empire even older?

Yes, Ghicari Empire is older, might be the oldest.

Ghiscari hills are full of bronze, aren't they? So maybe they worked with bronze rather than iron O.O

So Lhazareen are not vegans :o

okay.

"Women of Bayasabhad protects their city" :o

I guess it's the same for Kayakayana, Asabhad and Shamyriana.

[Free Northman Reborn]

The Andals were far fewer than the First Men. Maybe only a tenth of their number. That's why they intermarried with the First Men to solidify their rule.

So every Andal house in Westeros likely has more First Men blood in their genes than Andal blood. So Lan originally being a First Man does not make the Lannisters different from the Gardeners or Durandons or Arryns even. All of them, despite being of Andal heritage, likely incorporate more First Men blood than Andal blood after thousands of years of intermarriage with a predominantly First Men population.

In the North the ratio of Andal blood is far lower, but even there it still exists, likely among the nobility only, however.

So ultimately what defines a House as Andal today is their religion, rather than their origin.

Which makes the Manderlys Andal, but the Blackwoods First Men. And the Lannisters Andal without a doubt. Whatever Lan the Clever's story might be.

[Manderstark]

If I'm not wrong House Arryn is the house with more Andal blood.

[Free Northman Reborn]

The Arryns were apparently the highest nobility among the Andals that migrated to Westeros. Since we can be reasonably assured that the Andal royal family remained in Andalos in Northeastern Essos, the Andals were likely the next tier down from the King himself. Maybe even led by a younger son of the King of the Andals, possibly trying to make a name for himself by carving out new lands across the Narrow Sea.

The Vale was where the first Andals arrived and conquered new lands for themselves. And these were led by the noble Arryns.

However, I would imagine that given the huge numerical advantage of the First Men, and the proven intermarriage between the Andal nobles and First Men ruling Houses, the Andal blood of even the Arryns would by now have been largely diluted, after 3000 years of intermarriage.

Even if they only married into other Andal Houses, the fact is that these other Andal Houses would have more and more First Men blood in their lines as the centuries progressed.

So I am quite comfortable in my assessment that today, 3000 years later, the blood of pretty much every Andal house is likely around 80% First Men, and maybe 20% Andal, depending on what the exact ratio of Andals to First Men were in Westeros.

And among the Northern Houses that ratio would probably be more like 95% First Men. Even the Manderlys would have had 2000 years of intermarriage taking place in the South, even before they came to the North 1000 years ago. So when they arrived in the North, their blood would already have been around 80% First Man, just from the gradual dilution that took place in the South.

And over the last 1000 years in the North, this dilution would have accelerated, to the point where they are likely also in the 90% plus First Men range, from a genetic perspective.

And among the vast majority of commoners in the North, the ratio is probably in the 99%-100% First Men range, apart from areas around White Harbor, Barrowton and the like that has some contact with outside traders from time to time.

[Arataniello]

Today we learn -

Most agree that the Doom of Valyria was caused by a vast chain of volcanoes erupting at once.

Thrilling new information. NOT.

[Moondancer]

https://mobile.twitter.com/HarperVoyagerUK/media/grid?idx=1

Another look at the cover. :)

[Veltigar]

https://mobile.twitter.com/HarperVoyagerUK/media/grid?idx=1

Another look at the cover. :)

Yes, that's the version I ordered :) I must say that I find it much better than the other cover.