Stannis's Lawyer Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 And I would say that you are wrong. Cannibalism is among the lowest levels of human behavior, guest rights breach is down there as well, but that just means that Wyman has essentially just made himself as despicable as the Freys. Both are vile and no one deserves either. And if you accept that Manderlys gets to use cannibalism against the Freys, why can't, per the same logic, the Freys breach guest rights aganst Robb and his cohorts?What? I know both are very vile. If you'd bothered to read this thread you'd notice that I never said Manderly did anything remotely approaching justice when he made those pies. But what Manderly did is less vile because it caused less suffering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mychel_Redfort Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 guest rights breach is down there as well, but that just means that Wyman has essentially just made himself as despicable as the Freys. I believe that Wyman gave each Frey a palfrey as a guest gift, in order to have them no longer protected by guest rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgan1213 Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 When I finally figured it out, I laughed and laughed. It's quite gross. "Pork" pies out of Freys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primalsplit Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 So when a being suddenly borns as a human, he doesn't deserve to get baked no matter what? Human hypocrisy at it's best. If you feel sorry, feel sorry for animals you baked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valyrian Lance Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 And I would say that you are wrong. Cannibalism is among the lowest levels of human behavior, guest rights breach is down there as well, but that just means that Wyman has essentially just made himself as despicable as the Freys. Both are vile and no one deserves either. And if you accept that Manderlys gets to use cannibalism against the Freys, why can't, per the same logic, the Freys breach guest rights aganst Robb and his cohorts? I assume you mean in the real world where guest right is barely a thing because the gods and traditions of Westeros seem to disagree with you (see Rat Cook). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 So when a being suddenly borns as a human, he doesn't deserve to get baked no matter what? Human hypocrisy at it's best. If you feel sorry, feel sorry for animals you baked.Well, most people eat animals all the time. Doesn't mean they're being hypocrites when they don't want to eat a person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 It's worth noting that Manderly's surviving son was fed pieces of other prisoners at Harrenhal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I wouldn't have done it if I had been in Wyman's situation, but I can understand why he did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taenqyrhae Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Once you are dead, you're nothing but meat. I have never understood why people still have a problem with cannibalism now that we know how to make it safe. Part of the revenge wasn't just the killing and chopping up of their bodies, it was making the various traitors eat them. I would not be surprised if Manderley lets them know what they ate later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pib_Juju Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 And I would say that you are wrong. Cannibalism is among the lowest levels of human behavior, guest rights breach is down there as well, but that just means that Wyman has essentially just made himself as despicable as the Freys. Both are vile and no one deserves either. And if you accept that Manderlys gets to use cannibalism against the Freys, why can't, per the same logic, the Freys breach guest rights aganst Robb and his cohorts? Not at all. Murdering guests is, as you said, about as low as a person can go, and way beyond taboo. It demands a response in kind. Anyone who would murder guests at a wedding feast can't really complain about *any* breach of social norms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I think the main issue wit this is w hat the OP ask. "did they DESERVE it?". Who decides who deserve what and who doesn't? There isn't a judge there, or a person who accurately measures how big a revenge can be done. Did the Freys deserve a punishment for what they did? I suppose they did. At least, some of them, the ones who participated on the RW. Because the crime committed at the RW wasn't just "war": it was a premeditated murder of people who thought themselves safe according to the Westerosi customs. Now, Manderly isn't telling others "hey! what about if we bake people in revenge!". He is doing that as a personal revenge of him, as the Freys wronged both of his sons: killing one of them and keeping the other as a hostage. And with his actions, he's not only punishing the Freys, but also the Boltons, who were participants of the massacre at the Twins, which killed not only his family but his men and King. So, to our eyes, they didn't deserved it, but to Manderly's eyes, whose sons and Lord have been all wronged, yes, they deserved it. Now, personally, if someone had killed my son in the way Manderly's son died, I would bake them alive. (and yes, someone once hurt my boy and I punched the asshole on the face). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 @JCRB Wylis was kept hostage by Gregor, not the Freys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat of the Rivers Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I agree that tossing a body into the water is potentially dangerous to the living. In this case, however, the Freys were poisoning their own water, so I'm not sure how that would apply. Westeros is a cruel place for the living. People are burned to death. People are flayed. People are hunted like animals. Limbs, fingers, penises, balls are cut off as punishment. Rape is common. People are imprisoned in sky cells and dungeons. Entire villages are sentenced to death by starvation when lords burn winter supplies. Parents are forced to watch as their children are tortured to death. Compared to that, tossing a corpse into the water, or eating corpses is, honestly, not something that stands out for its cruelty. So in order for it to be wrong it has to "stand out" in it's cruelty? Also eating corpses and horrifically stripping and throwing corpses into the river really stands out for me in these books. And also the water in the river flows. Who the hell knows where the water that Catelyn's corpse affected? Then we have different sets of morals. IMO cannibalism is far worse, as treating other people like food strips those people of their humanity. Furthermore, Manderly forced many others to unknowingly partake in it. :agree: Once you are dead, you're nothing but meat. I have never understood why people still have a problem with cannibalism now that we know how to make it safe. Because human beings are not animals. And like Dimples had said treating other human beings like that strips them of their humanity. Not at all. Murdering guests is, as you said, about as low as a person can go, and way beyond taboo. It demands a response in kind. Anyone who would murder guests at a wedding feast can't really complain about *any* breach of social norms. So all the Freys (including the innocents, women and children) could be horrifically killed and they couldn't complain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blow My Horn Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 There is no justice for the dead. Do I support Wyman's actions? Yes, yes I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 There is no justice for the dead. Do I support Wyman's actions? Yes, yes I do. So I guess there should be no justice for Robb or Wyman's son killed in the RW too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 @JCRBWylis was kept hostage by Gregor, not the Freys. Ah, ok, then. Still, he was captured by Tywin's henchman, and he was part of the RW, as far as people probably assume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pib_Juju Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 So all the Freys (including the innocents, women and children) could be horrifically killed and they couldn't complain? The pie boys weren't innocents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 The pie boys weren't innocents.Innocents did suffer from their deaths. Including Alesander Frey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blow My Horn Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 So I guess there should be no justice for Robb or Wyman's son killed in the RW too? Should? Justice for murder victims is a fallacy, retribution is the reality. And yes, there should be retribution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs_Darcy Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 The pie boys weren't innocents. Even if they had not partaken in the Red Wedding (which I do not think, since nearly all grown Freys living at the Twins seem to have played a role), those three nevertheless had no scruple profiting from what their relatives had done. The whole point of those Freys going North was to look for places where they could live once Walder Frey bit the dust and Wyman Manderly was pressured to betroth the heiress of White Harbour to Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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