Lord Varys Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 THB, that personal vendetta thing could play into it. I suspect that the Blackfyres/Bittersteel have something to do with the disappearance of Shiera Seastar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 LV, It could very well be. But this thing of Shiera's disappearance is new to me. Does it come from the world book or any comment from Ran? If he disappeared and the Blackfyres were behind it, it opens the door for two interesting theories: either they kidnapped her, or she change her mind again and chose Bittersteel (or a younger son of Daemon) over Bloodraven... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Well, I was referring to the theory that Shiera might have been Melisandre's mother. If that's the case then she would have to end up in slavery eventually. The fact that the Worldbook gives no details whatsoever about Shiera's later life is sort of telling in that regard. She does not seem to be there when Bloodraven is sent to the Wall, for instance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Shiera might be the old wisewoman or her mother. “It shredded my arm and back as well, and I bled worse than the elk. My brothers feared I might die before they got me back to Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower, so they carried me to a wildling village where we knew an old wisewoman did some healing. She was dead, as it happened, but her daughter saw to me. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up, and fed me porridge and potions until I was strong enough to ride again. And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treasure she had, and her gift to me.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maia Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 The fact that the Worldbook gives no details whatsoever about Shiera's later life is sort of telling in that regard. She does not seem to be there when Bloodraven is sent to the Wall, for instance...Yea, but that's how it is with most women mentioned in WOIAF. We don't know what happened to Rhaena after she jumped on Dreamfyre's back and escaped Maegor, or to her daughters. We have no clue about the later years of Queen Shaera, how and why she died. Etc., etc.And Bloodraven was 58 when he left for the Wall. Shiera may have been already dead or long gone to Asshai or whatever. I really don't see anything linking her to Melony/Melisandre, and I really hope that she was a woman who had agency and magical power, rather than just a fridging victim to provide Bloodraven's manpain or Melisandre's childhood issues. I prefer to think that Shiera is Quaithe, since Asshai in general and shadowbinders in particular seem to be undead anyway. And she already had a reputation for being a sorceress and had been close to Bloodraven, who really was a sorcerer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 "As a form of protest against Mr. Martin I refuse to buy it." I just can't believe that this person is actually serious. Anyway, while we did get some cool little tidbits on Bloodraven, I expect we'll hear and see a lot more about him before it is said and done. He's been my favorite character from the mythology for quite a while now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maia Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 He should have denied Aenys the safe passage and be over with it. What he did was despicable, and it really didn't benefit the realm. As I see it, it was just a personal vendetta.We can't judge without knowing all the facts. IMHO, it is highly likely that Bloodraven had known that if he refused Aenys safe-conduct, the latter would have been offered protection by one or more of the paramounts and provided with a chance to speak to the Great Council anyway. He couldn't have done anything to prevent that, so, instead, he lured Aenys into his power and killed him. And yes, Aenys must have been an eloquent speaker and resistance against Aegon V must have been great. From what we have seen of BR, he wouldn't have done something like that unless he saw a great need. And I can't imagine why he'd have partiular vendetta against that guy, who didn't even figure in any of his previous clashes with the Blackfyres. Now, had it been Bittersteel, yea, I could see the vendetta angle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Well, there is this heart-shaped face thing Shiera and Mel have in common (the only two women in the whole series, if I'm not mistaken). That's not a coincidence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anath Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 He should have denied Aenys the safe passage and be over with it. What he did was despicable, and it really didn't benefit the realm. As I see it, it was just a personal vendetta. Would it really have been over with it? The fact that the first Daemon Blackfyre wasn't allowed to present his case in front of a Great Council at all didn't stop him from starting trouble that would go on for the next five generations. Given Bloodraven's almost cavalier attitude to Daemon II, I'd lay my bets on the possibility that Aenys was someone who could rally people around him - like his father was before him. As despicable as it might have been, someone seizing Daemon and killing him in the dark before he had the chance to start plotting on a high level, aka at the first sign of trouble, the realm would have benefitted greatly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moondancer Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 I don't think we should dismiss the potency of BR's intelligence at that point, the score of his knowledge both of present and future events. The pretender may seem to us like a snowball; but I think only BR had been able to see the avalanche that would have ensued. After all, BR is faithful to his (and Daemon's) old adage (paraphrasing) that pardoned rebels beget the future rebellions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojzelote Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Not sure if I buy the whole "it was for the Realm" either. It is entirely possible that Aenys and his progeny would make for much better kings than Egg and his descendants. We can't really know. It's oh so nice BR preferred Daeron's line, but mayhaps he should have let the lords make the choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 We can't judge without knowing all the facts. IMHO, it is highly likely that Bloodraven had known that if he refused Aenys safe-conduct, the latter would have been offered protection by one or more of the paramounts and provided with a chance to speak to the Great Council anyway. I disagree. Granting safe-conduct to a traitor it's something than can only be done by the king, or a Hand/Regent as Bloodraven was at that time. I don't buy that, say, a lord Baratheon or Tully could have invited a Blackfyre at King's Landing on their own initiative without comitting treason themselves. It's worth noting that Aenys didn't intend to come to the Council, to begin with. he just wrote a letter puting forward his claim. Then, Bloodraven invites him to the Council to present it in person. Aenys only came because of him. From what we have seen of BR, he wouldn't have done something like that unless he saw a great need. We know that Bloodraven pushed for having all the black lords beheaded (oposing Baelor Breakspear), there's a clear suspicion that he killed treacherously Haegon I after he had given up his sword, he insisted to have Bittersteel executed instead of being sent to the Wall... I'd say that from what we've seen of BR, he hates the Blackfyres passionately. Would it really have been over with it? The fact that the first Daemon Blackfyre wasn't allowed to present his case in front of a Great Council at all didn't stop him from starting trouble that would go on for the next five generations. Perhaps if the first Daemon Blackfyre had been allowed to present his case in front of a Great Council they could have avoided the trouble that would go on for the next five generations. :P Given Bloodraven's almost cavalier attitude to Daemon II, I'd lay my bets on the possibility that Aenys was someone who could rally people around him - like his father was before him. As despicable as it might have been, someone seizing Daemon and killing him in the dark before he had the chance to start plotting on a high level, aka at the first sign of trouble, the realm would have benefitted greatly. I'm not seeing the "cavalier attitude" you suggest, but cold calculation. He refused the trial by combat Daemon II offered, burned his banner, and was ruthless with everyone who followed him. For all we know, Daemon spent the rest of his sad live in the darkest of the black cells. Bloodraven only kept him alive because he was such a fool that not even Bittersteel would back him. Aenys' claim was considerably weak, and it's hard to believe that a Blackfyre would have gotten enough support in the Great Council (the black lords had been purged or gone to exile). Still, it was a decision for the lords to make. If Aenys was such a great and inspiring leader who could have moved the lords of the realm to vote for him, Bloodraven should not have a problem with that if he only is "serving the realm". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 From what we have seen of BR, he wouldn't have done something like that unless he saw a great need. And I can't imagine why he'd have partiular vendetta against that guy, who didn't even figure in any of his previous clashes with the Blackfyres. Now, had it been Bittersteel, yea, I could see the vendetta angle. Defending the line of Daeron II and opposing House Blackfyre was the task of Bloodraven's life, from the Redgrass Field to his time as Master of Whisperers to his quarter-century as Hand of the King. That's exactly the sort of background that would make him inveterately opposed to the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moondancer Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Well, there is this heart-shaped face thing Shiera and Mel have in common (the only two women in the whole series, if I'm not mistaken). That's not a coincidence...The heart shaped face is a very flattering attribute on a female. I think Baelor's sisters have it, as well. (GRRM's pitch for Amok.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost's Shadow Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 The part where these silly Blackfyres didn't get the IT wasn't seeing daddy's legitimisation as meaning they had a claim to the throne... and they kept on coming and dying and coming and dying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hos the Hostage Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I think BR's green dreams worked a bit like Mel's vision of Renly defeating Stannis at Blackwater. (Not supporting Mel is BR's child at all! I bet Mel is older than BR.) BR foresaw a rebellion, made Dareon take preventing measures, and it only helped to accelerate things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I'm just now picking up on all of these "Shiera is such-and-such" theories. I have just assumed she was dead based on what Bloodraven tells Bran in the cave in ADwD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Would it really have been over with it? The fact that the first Daemon Blackfyre wasn't allowed to present his case in front of a Great Council at all didn't stop him from starting trouble that would go on for the next five generations. Given Bloodraven's almost cavalier attitude to Daemon II, I'd lay my bets on the possibility that Aenys was someone who could rally people around him - like his father was before him. As despicable as it might have been, someone seizing Daemon and killing him in the dark before he had the chance to start plotting on a high level, aka at the first sign of trouble, the realm would have benefitted greatly. Aenys was the best choice around as king, no one really liked Egg or Aerion's get. The blackfyres for all their rebelling(I still love them) never stopped proving to show a form of honor men could respect and had friends across the realm. The Targs would have been messed if he seriously spoke in the GC. The only one who really would have been endangered were Bloodraven, the other loyalist of the Targs depended on how vengeful Aenys was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingWITHcersei Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Anyone else suspect that BR might have been behind the decision to get him sent to the wall? Me thinks there's more to that tale than meets the eye. Also does that mean Darksister is now beyond the wall? No reason to think BR wasn't sent there with his arms and armorment. There's precedence for nobles being allowed to keep their gear when forced to take the black (Robin Ryger comes to mind when RR surrendered). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 There's a huge difference between ordinary gear and something like Dark Sister. Even if Egg was being generous, it makes no sense to send House Targaryen's only remaining Valyrian steel sword to the Wall with a disgrace criminal that Egg himself has condemned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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