Lord Varys Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 Indeed. Rhaenyra was burned before she was devoured. However, it is not that unlikely that many Valyrians had a sort of uncanny/supernatural resilience to fire, or at least the potential to magically become impervious to fire in some special circumstance (i.e. Dany). At least if their city really had those lava canals depicted on the illustrations, one really would assume that they were not, in fact, just normal people. Such people would (and could) not live in such a city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maia Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 I never said it was? I just think it would have been funny to see the reaction of some of the vehemently "anti-fireproof" people on this board if the worldbook had contained a story about Aegon surviving some conflagration that a normal man would not have survived.Personally, since TPaTQ I have been wondering about Aegon II, who seems to have survived some really extensive burns caused by dragonflame. Also, Baela. It would be plausible if the dragonlords/Targaryens were somewhat fire-resistent and healed better from burns than other people. Which, BTW, brings me to the dragonhorn, that seems to burn sounders lungs from the inside out. I strongly suspect that it is a safe-gard against non-dragonlords using it (smearing it with your blood and using disposable patsies is clear nonsense, IMHO), and that a dragonlord would have been able to sound it and live. Additional magics may or may not be required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 Ran has brought up the possibility that Dragonbinder may be one of the weapons the dragonlords used in their internal struggles to steal away dragons from other dragonriders - if those conflicts included such things (Prince Daemon only hinted at that dragons did kill dragons during the civil wars/conflicts of the Lords Freeholder). If the Valyrians had weapons that could affect the bond between dragon and dragonrider, we could also assume that Princess Meria had such a weapon, if the story that she acquired some ancient weapon against dragons from the Lyseni is true. Aegon and his sisters may have been wary of such a device because even they may have been uncertain what it could and could not do. It is not very likely that the Targaryens still retained a lot of knowledge from their Valyrian ancestors. However, I'd agree that dragon blood should be the key to make use of all those weapons. It would be very surprising if the Valyrians did not use their magic to guard the source of their power against both internal and external enemies (i.e. up-jumpers who wanted to become dragonlords, and foreigners who wanted to acquire dragons as weapons for their own empires). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Lord Varys Could we then combine the possession of such a weapon with the Dornish holding Rhaenys captive, and thus having access to dragonblood to use as a sacrifice to empower the Horn? Could that be the threat they made in that letter to Aegon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 FNR, damn, that's a very good idea! It could make a lot more sense than any of the ideas given by Yandel. I'm not sure Aegon would have wanted a mercy death for Rhaenys unless he had seen eye-to-eye what happened to her, and the idea that she was brought to him in secret to Dragonstone via ship makes little sense to me. In such a scenario he most certainly would have freed (or killed) Rhaenys and continued the war thereafter. But such a thing could really have threatened the Targaryen rule at this early point, especially if the Martells had been able to steal away either Vhagar or Balerion from Visenya/Aegon. The interesting question now would be: Do the Martells still have such a weapon in their possession? Meria would have bought it during the First Dornish War (i.e. after the Dornishmen had retaken Sunspear). When the Young Dragon took Sunspear again during the Conquest of Dorne, the dragons were already dead, so such a weapon would have piqued little to no interest. The same would be true when Dorne finally joined the Realm. If they still have it, it could become interesting during the Second Dance, especially if Dorne declares for Aegon, and wants either destroy Dany's dragons, or secure a dragon for Aegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 I'll admit I still have a problem with the general idea that Horns of such a nature were available in Old Valyria. It just seems to invalidate the concept of a family bloodline being so incredibly important to control a specific line of dragons. If the Horns DO work, I would imagine that they have very specific sacrificial requirements and need to operate under very specific conditions - else dragonstealing would be a relatively simple and frequent occurrence. Also, it would have made the sorcerors more powerful than the Dragonlords in Valyria, if every sorcerer could manufacture a Dragon Horn, and from what we know, the Dragonlords outranked the sorcerors in their social hierarchy. Lastly, if this Horn theory is correct, could Euron's horn simply be Dorne's horn which was maybe lost or sold to someone else by the Martells after the last dragon died? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naseridrl Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 In the Larra Rogare stuff in the book her uncle is referred to as Prince Consort of Dorne so clearly the Martells married into Free Cities families before Doran. Maybe due to their connection to Valyrian people and their Rhoynar descent they knew things of dragons, or had acquired artefacts. I can't imagine the first few rulers of Dorne after Nymeria didn't do everything they could to make sure dragons wouldn't take away their next home after they'd united it and started making a real life there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maia Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Brilliant idea, Free Northman! This makes perfect sense. It would also explain why Rhaenys's bones were never returned. Dorne would have preferred to keep Targaryens in uncertainty re: whether they could still use this anti-dragon weapon. And, on a darker note, they may have bred Rhaenys, if her condition allowed it, to retain this option after her death.OTOH, there is Aegon's and Aenys's visit to Sunspear... But did they take their dragons along? It is not mentioned, IIRC. And it did seem a bit strange to me that they would have risked going there, after such a bitter and cruel war. If it was their one chance to see Rhaenys again, though, I could see it. Particularly, since the realm would have been much more unified at that point than during the initial war, so, if anything happened to them, Visenya and Maegor could have avenged them terribly even without the use of dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maia Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Also, it would have made the sorcerors more powerful than the Dragonlords in Valyria, if every sorcerer could manufacture a Dragon Horn, and from what we know, the Dragonlords outranked the sorcerors in their social hierarchy.IMHO, both a dragonlord and a sorceror are needed to operate a dragonhorn correctly. They could be one and the same, as some dragonlords were sorcerors, but no sorceror could use it alone without also being a dragonlord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbison from Ibben Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 I'll admit I still have a problem with the general idea that Horns of such a nature were available in Old Valyria. It just seems to invalidate the concept of a family bloodline being so incredibly important to control a specific line of dragons. If the Horns DO work, I would imagine that they have very specific sacrificial requirements and need to operate under very specific conditions - else dragonstealing would be a relatively simple and frequent occurrence. Also, it would have made the sorcerors more powerful than the Dragonlords in Valyria, if every sorcerer could manufacture a Dragon Horn, and from what we know, the Dragonlords outranked the sorcerors in their social hierarchy. Lastly, if this Horn theory is correct, could Euron's horn simply be Dorne's horn which was maybe lost or sold to someone else by the Martells after the last dragon died? I've always been partial to the idea that each dragonlord family had its own horn. In her last chapter in aDwD, Dany says that the dragonlords used to control their dragons with spells and horns. The idea that only one horn ever existed doesn't make sense to me. And if horns can control/bind dragons, they would be the highest of high security items to dragonlod families, including the Targs while they were in Westeros. I fully agree with you about dragonstealing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbison from Ibben Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 dp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Look, it's just an idea, based on Lord Varys's speculations above. I still don't know if there is any evidence of Dorne ever owning a Dragonbinder Horn. If the theory is on the right track, however, it would explain Aegon's sudden departure to Dragonstone as him wanting to immediately get to the Targaryens' stash of Valyrian tomes, to check up on whether such a Dragonbinder threat would actually work. Presumably, any dragon related lore the Targ's brought with them from Valyria would have been kept on Dragonstone, rather than King's Landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 I'll admit I still have a problem with the general idea that Horns of such a nature were available in Old Valyria. It just seems to invalidate the concept of a family bloodline being so incredibly important to control a specific line of dragons. If the Horns DO work, I would imagine that they have very specific sacrificial requirements and need to operate under very specific conditions - else dragonstealing would be a relatively simple and frequent occurrence. Also, it would have made the sorcerors more powerful than the Dragonlords in Valyria, if every sorcerer could manufacture a Dragon Horn, and from what we know, the Dragonlords outranked the sorcerors in their social hierarchy. Lastly, if this Horn theory is correct, could Euron's horn simply be Dorne's horn which was maybe lost or sold to someone else by the Martells after the last dragon died? Well, as far as we know, the dragonlords were just sorcerors who had accessed the secret about how to craft magical horns and use them to bind dragons, while non-dragonlords sorcerors were the ones who still hadn't figured how to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 I'll admit I still have a problem with the general idea that Horns of such a nature were available in Old Valyria. It just seems to invalidate the concept of a family bloodline being so incredibly important to control a specific line of dragons. If the Horns DO work, I would imagine that they have very specific sacrificial requirements and need to operate under very specific conditions - else dragonstealing would be a relatively simple and frequent occurrence. Also, it would have made the sorcerors more powerful than the Dragonlords in Valyria, if every sorcerer could manufacture a Dragon Horn, and from what we know, the Dragonlords outranked the sorcerors in their social hierarchy. Lastly, if this Horn theory is correct, could Euron's horn simply be Dorne's horn which was maybe lost or sold to someone else by the Martells after the last dragon died? I think the horn could be how a family ties dragons to it's bloodline. But somebody in the family has to sacrifice themselves by blowing it. Thus it wouldn't be something people would really want to use, keeping the blood pure and sticking to your current line of Dragons would be preferable. By the way according to the app Euron's got his horn from the warlocks of Qarth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Alysanne™ Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 I think the horn could be how a family ties dragons to it's bloodline. But somebody in the family has to sacrifice themselves by blowing it. Thus it wouldn't be something people would really want to use, keeping the blood pure and sticking to your current line of Dragons would be preferable. By the way according to the app Euron's got his horn from the warlocks of Qarth. Considering it has Valyrian glyphs, I'm guessing the Warlocks stole it from a Valyrian dragonrider? Though the world book never mentions any encounter between Valyria and Qarth, so one has to wonder how they got it. Qarth also has symbols of dragons in the city which I guess predate Valyria, and they also have one of the origin stories of dragons, so the warlocks may know something of dragons we don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 ^ The book does mention that there were dragonlords left alive outside of Valyria that were revolted against. Those people may have had valyrian items left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 ^ The book does mention that there were dragonlords left alive outside of Valyria that were revolted against. Those people may have had valyrian items left. Did these dragonlords have dragons with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Did these dragonlords have dragons with them? Some did but they were killed by the people. One guy tried to retake Valyria with his dragon and some Qohorik but was never seen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 Those were one and the same. The dragonlord Aurion visited Qohor during the Doom declared himself Emperor of Valyria afterwards, raised an army of 30,000 Qohorik and disappeared with his whole army when he tried to reclaim the lost city. Other surviving dragonlords were in Tyrosh and Lys, and those and their dragons were killed by the citizens of those cities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 So what differentiated the Targaryens from these other surviving dragonlords? Was it the fact that they had 5 dragons, rather than just one? Or the fact that they were on an easily defensible island, which could only be approached by ship, with ships being notoriously good kindling for a nice big dragonflame bonfire? What made the Targs such a powerful and influential faction in the Century of Blood while these other dragonlords were wiped out with little effort? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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