Why is Tyrion everybody's favorite?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

So Bran wanted Sansa to marry Lancel?

'Cause she was getting a Lannister husband, regardless, and there was no way for Tyrion to stop that unless he killed her.

If he killed Lancel and then himself, Tywin would have dug up somebody else in the family to marry Sansa and her inheritance.

I guess he wanted her returned. As Tyrion had promised. And the power to do,

How was he a traitor to Robert?

And how does one go about being loyal to both Stannis and Tommen simultaneously?

The only killing Tyrion personally did in the Vale was in defense of himself, Lady Stark, and the rest of their party.

After Lysa forces him out where he's bound to be set upon by the same barbarians or someone just like them, he does what he has to to keep from being killed (which was what she had in mind, she who accused him of the murder she herself committed) and keeps the promise of weapons and armor he made. If those barbarians return to the Vale better equipped to do what they'd been doing all along, they aren't acting on his orders--at that point he's injured and Tywin has taken over and fired them from their previous military duties in defense of Kings Landing.

Tyrion had no part in the planning or carrying out of the Red Wedding, nor advance knowledge of it.

The singer was blackmailing him, and by doing so, liable to get Shae hanged.

As for "the smallfolk around KL", I can't figure out to whom you refer.

Covering for Jaime and Cersei is definitely high treason to Robert.

Knowingly supporting the Lannister coup is high treason to Stannis.

Murdering Tywin and setting up an invasion against Tommen is high treason against Tommen.

"Doing what he has to do?" That's damn close to the Nuremberg defense.

And he had him murdered and cannibalized.

All the people Bronn and his coworkers murdered.

[Wmarshal]

How was he a traitor to Robert?

And how does one go about being loyal to both Stannis and Tommen simultaneously?

The only killing Tyrion personally did in the Vale was in defense of himself, Lady Stark, and the rest of their party.

After Lysa forces him out where he's bound to be set upon by the same barbarians or someone just like them, he does what he has to to keep from being killed (which was what she had in mind, she who accused him of the murder she herself committed) and keeps the promise of weapons and armor he made. If those barbarians return to the Vale better equipped to do what they'd been doing all along, they aren't acting on his orders--at that point he's injured and Tywin has taken over and fired them from their previous military duties in defense of Kings Landing.

Tyrion had no part in the planning or carrying out of the Red Wedding, nor advance knowledge of it.

The singer was blackmailing him, and by doing so, liable to get Shae hanged.

As for "the smallfolk around KL", I can't figure out to whom you refer.

He joined a Joffrey when he knew he had no claim, instead of Robert's true heir.

Well, he did murder Tommen's hand, and there is the matter of him pointing invasion forces to Tommen.

Tyrion didn't do it to save his ass, he could have easily promised them food to survive, he waited for them to show. Because of his weapons, they now have gone beyond what they have done in the past, wiping out villages, and what does he think of this? Nothing. They were armored after BGF, Petyr brought it up at Clash.

He lied to Cat and freed Jaime, freeing Tywin up to plan his schemes for easier.

[unitron]

I guess he wanted her returned. As Tyrion had promised. And the power to do,

Covering for Jaime and Cersei is definitely high treason to Robert.

Knowingly supporting the Lannister coup is high treason to Stannis.

Murdering Tywin and setting up an invasion against Tommen is high treason against Tommen.

"Doing what he has to do?" That's damn close to the Nuremberg defense.

And he had him murdered and cannibalized.

All the people Bronn and his coworkers murdered.

Well, if Jaime had actually shown up back when he was the acting hand and could have done something I think he would have returned her.

By the time Jaime does finally get there, Tywin's in charge, Tyrion no longer has the power to send Cat a complimentary fruit basket, much less a daughter, and Tywin has already forced Tyrion and Sansa to wed.

He didn't cover for Jaime and Cersei because he had no actual proof while Robert was still alive.

If by some miracle Tyrion could have arranged for Stannis to take the throne his reward would be his head on a spike just for being a Lannister (not to mention all of the "little folk" of KL who would have been slaughtered just for being in town at the time)--hardly incentive to turn against his blood and "do the right thing"

You're going to have to pick between Stannis and Tommen as the legitimate king, you can't have both just so that you can consider Tyrion guilty of treason against both of them.

Lysa set him up to be killed and you think he has some obligation to go along with that?

Forgive me if I shed no tears for the blackmailer who would have gotten Shae hanged by Tywin.

And there is no scene in the book that actually shows what became of the singer or how his remains, if he died, were disposed of, so it's only supposition at this point.

As for all those people Bronn and associates are supposed to have killed, I'll have to go back through the 2nd and 3rd books to see if I can find what and who you're talking about there.

[Wmarshal]

Well, if Jaime had actually shown up back when he was the acting hand and could have done something I think he would have returned her.

By the time Jaime does finally get there, Tywin's in charge, Tyrion no longer has the power to send Cat a complimentary fruit basket, much less a daughter, and Tywin has already forced Tyrion and Sansa to wed.

He didn't cover for Jaime and Cersei because he had no actual proof while Robert was still alive.

If by some miracle Tyrion could have arranged for Stannis to take the throne his reward would be his head on a spike just for being a Lannister (not to mention all of the "little folk" of KL who would have been slaughtered just for being in town at the time)--hardly incentive to turn against his blood and "do the right thing"

You're going to have to pick between Stannis and Tommen as the legitimate king, you can't have both just so that you can consider Tyrion guilty of treason against both of them.

Lysa set him up to be killed and you think he has some obligation to go along with that?

Forgive me if I shed no tears for the blackmailer who would have gotten Shae hanged by Tywin.

And there is no scene in the book that actually shows what became of the singer or how his remains, if he died, were disposed of, so it's only supposition at this point.

As for all those people Bronn and associates are supposed to have killed, I'll have to go back through the 2nd and 3rd books to see if I can find what and who you're talking about there.

But only did he not return her but married her by force.

Tyrion was forced to do jack, Tywin couldn't make him marry, Sansa would have went to Kevan's boys.

Went when he was good and buried he repelled his heir.

Stannis is no butcher, his men are of the crownlands and he gelded men just for raping a invading wildling.

He choice Tommen, betrayed Stannis, then betrayed Tommen by killing his hand and pointing a invading force at him. He is a crappy uncle.

So arming a horde of men to burn through the Vale is okay because of their lady? Again, he waited for them, could have afford food, but gave them swords.

[unitron]

But only did he not return her but married her by force.

Tyrion was forced to do jack, Tywin couldn't make him marry, Sansa would have went to Kevan's boys.

Went when he was good and buried he repelled his heir.

Stannis is no butcher, his men are of the crownlands and he gelded men just for raping a invading wildling.

He choice Tommen, betrayed Stannis, then betrayed Tommen by killing his hand and pointing a invading force at him. He is a crappy uncle.

So arming a horde of men to burn through the Vale is okay because of their lady? Again, he waited for them, could have afford food, but gave them swords.

What invading force did he point at Tommen?

There was no way he and Bronn were going to be able to outride the barbarians, so there was no reason not to camp for the night. By the time he got back to KL there was already a food shortage. He offered them gold, they weren't interested, so he figured out what they did want. And managed to keep them from killing him by doing so.

When he shouldn't have had to worry about it at all because Lysa should never have put him in that position in the first place. If she'd done that to Tywin Lannister, she'd have had a lot worse to worry about than the same barbarians slightly better armed and armored than before--It would have been Castamere all over again.

Tyrion didn't marry Sansa by force, Tyrion was forced to marry her. The best he could have done for her was what he offered and she refused, to let her marry Lancel instead and let himself be married to Lollys or someone equally appealing, and even that would have put him at risk of Tywin's anger. As to the dangerousness of Tywin's anger, I refer you to the aforementioned Castamere.

Stannis led southern men against wildlings they didn't much care about one way or the other, and subdued them quickly because of the advantage of surprise, whereas if he'd taken Kings Landing, a town of the hated Lannisters, it would have been a much longer and bloodier process, meaning when they finally succeeded they'd be a lot more angry and vengeful, and if his troops were all that well disciplined there would have been no rape to punish in the first place.

[Wmarshal]

What invading force did he point at Tommen?

There was no way he and Bronn were going to be able to outride the barbarians, so there was no reason not to camp for the night. By the time he got back to KL there was already a food shortage. He offered them gold, they weren't interested, so he figured out what they did want. And managed to keep them from killing him by doing so.

When he shouldn't have had to worry about it at all because Lysa should never have put him in that position in the first place. If she'd done that to Tywin Lannister, she'd have had a lot worse to worry about than the same barbarians slightly better armed and armored than before--It would have been Castamere all over again.

Tyrion didn't marry Sansa by force, Tyrion was forced to marry her. The best he could have done for her was what he offered and she refused, to let her marry Lancel instead and let himself be married to Lollys or someone equally appealing, and even that would have put him at risk of Tywin's anger. As to the dangerousness of Tywin's anger, I refer you to the aforementioned Castamere.

Stannis led southern men against wildlings they didn't much care about one way or the other, and subdued them quickly because of the advantage of surprise, whereas if he'd taken Kings Landing, a town of the hated Lannisters, it would have been a much longer and bloodier process, meaning when they finally succeeded they'd be a lot more angry and vengeful, and if his troops were all that well disciplined there would have been no rape to punish in the first place.

Aegon.

And then without flinching offer them weapons to gut the people of the Vale. Why do you keep bringing up KL? He offered them the swords in Games, gave it to them in Games and they used it sense games. So again, because their lady wronged him, it is okay for him to armor clansmen to gut them?

No he wasn't, at all. His dad couldn't make him marry. What would have happened? Tywin is no kinslayer. What was he to fear? Tywin cut his whoring allowance? Send him home?

A town of hated Lannisters is Lannisport, KL is a city of Crownmen and women, who make up the back bone of his army. The only long siege if his plan had work would have been MH.

[Tyrion Hand of the King]

I don't know what's worse, the whitewashing he gets in the show, or the blackwashing he gets around here. :rolleyes:

:lmao: I've asked myself the same question so many times. The funny thing is I truly believe the whitewashing of the show has triggered a large amount of the blackwashing on this forum.

[JoeyBanana]

I don't know, maybe it's because his POV is entertaining and interesting.

Tyrion the person is not my favorite, but his POV definitely is one of the best, in my opinion.

[averde]

He's the authors favorite character, and I think that comes off a bit in the writing for Tyrion.

[jaimereborn]

ADWD made me hate Tyrion. so many chapters. so little interesting characterisation. so much boredom.

[unitron]

Aegon.

...

So if Tyrion hadn't shown up in Essos it never would have occurred to Connington to go back to Westeros? Seriously?

[unitron]

:lmao: I've asked myself the same question so many times. The funny thing is I truly believe the whitewashing of the show has triggered a large amount of the blackwashing on this forum.

Seems to me that no matter what is said the hate starts up right about the time Tyrion is forced to marry Sansa, and at that point people find earlier stuff retroactively upsetting.

[Wmarshal]

So if Tyrion hadn't shown up in Essos it never would have occurred to Connington to go back to Westeros? Seriously?

Seeing as how him and the train was heading to Dany, it looks lie yeah, you can blame Tyrion for sending Aegon West.

[unitron]

Seeing as how him and the train was heading to Dany, it looks lie yeah, you can blame Tyrion for sending Aegon West.

And where were they planning to go once they got up with Dany?

Do you think they'd have been content to hang around Mereen?

This way they arrive in Westeros *without* any dragons or Dothraki or Unsullied, et cetera.

If I were Tommen I'd prefer them that way to the alternative.

[The Dragons Hand]

Doesn't enter my top three, I can't say about after that though.

[Lord Freypie]

I love Tyrion, and certainly don't separate the person and the character. Tywin I like him as a litterary creation only, "his son" it's a different thing, sorry. Clearly rooted for him against Stannis, cry me a river about the burners fleet being burned. I sympathized for the friendship he could developp with people as different as Jon and Bronn. I liked that he designed a saddle for Bran. I have no problem he didn't let the Vale unpunished, and regretted he wasn't the one making Lysa pay (but still have hopes he'll return for LF), I understand he married Sansa and pitied him when he had the false hope of somehow make it work, I supported how he tried to snatch her courtesy armor and was sad he failed. I admire that he resisted the temptation to rape her even if he would have been socially rewarded for that. I liked even more that he found the courage to oppose Joffrey several times to protect her. I respect that he was a good and comprehensive leader for his clansmen and sellswords. I like that he got Pycelle beard cut and smashed Marillon's hand. He had my support to get a blackmailer threatening the safety of a girl he loved killed, how he treated Slynt and got his baby killer drowned, everytime he intrigued against Cersei, everytime he served his family and everytime he betrayed it. I love that he got the world rid of Tywin. I have no problem with what he did to Shae. I was touched by how low he fell in ADWD. I was happy to see him start rebunding. I love his ambiguous protective relation with Penny. I love his big mouth with all the problems it cause, and comprehend his thoughts as full of selfishness, loathing or delusion they may be. And finally everything I love in Tyrion I love it even more thinking about hows every short minded moralist on the internet can't stand him.

When I read The Accursed Kings I have no problem rooting for Robert d'Artois who did nearly all the bad things Tyrion did but to real people and with less good motives.

When I watch The Borgias I have no problem rooting for Cesare who did things ten thousand times worse than Robert d'Artois.

When I watch a Scorcese movie, guess what, I'm not rooting for the FBI.

Never had to argue with any fan about that. Seems there's only here where you are supposed to be obsessed by morality and have it questionned all the time like if you were some priest found in a brothel, if you don't prefer some bland shallow characters to the real thing just because they didn't do this or didn't do that. In the Silmarillon it's certainly not Tuor chapter I've re-read 10 times more than all others, rather Turin's.

Tyrion has the qualities of all heroes I like, he's very human and super-human, he's badass and terribly weak, he's a victim and a tormentor, he's a good guy and worse than anyone. I'm not loving the good part of Tyrion but the whole character, and not being an angel is part of it,

Haters gonna hate and that's it.

[The Wolves]

He killed Tywin, anybody who killed that monster would be a fav of mine.

[Woman of War]

...........

And finally everything I love in Tyrion I love it even more thinking about hows every short minded moralist on the internet can't stand him.

LOL

I so much agree. I may be a dedicated liberal after U.S. Criteria but first of all in the European way where the individual human rights are paramount. And that' why I truly dislike any thought control in the name of political correctness.

When I read The Accursed Kings I have no problem rooting for Robert d'Artois who did nearly all the bad things Tyrion did but to real people and with less good motives.

When I watch The Borgias I have no problem rooting for Cesare who did things ten thousand times worse than Robert d'Artois.

When I watch a Scorcese movie, guess what, I'm not rooting for the FBI.

Never had to argue with any fan about that. Seems there's only here where you are supposed to be obsessed by morality and have it questionned all the time like if you were some priest found in a brothel, if you don't prefer some bland shallow characters to the real thing just because they didn't do this or didn't do that. In the Silmarillon it's certainly not Tuor chapter I've re-read 10 times more than all others, rather Turin's.

Tyrion has the qualities of all heroes I like, he's very human and super-human, he's badass and terribly weak, he's a victim and a tormentor, he's a good guy and worse than anyone. I'm not loving the good part of Tyrion but the whole character, and not being an angel is part of it,

Haters gonna hate and that's it.

I like the examples you gave

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I love Tyrion, and certainly don't separate the person and the character. Tywin I like him as a litterary creation only, "his son" it's a different thing, sorry. Clearly rooted for him against Stannis, cry me a river about the burners fleet being burned. I sympathized for the friendship he could developp with people as different as Jon and Bronn. I liked that he designed a saddle for Bran. I have no problem he didn't let the Vale unpunished, and regretted he wasn't the one making Lysa pay (but still have hopes he'll return for LF), I understand he married Sansa and pitied him when he had the false hope of somehow make it work, I supported how he tried to snatch her courtesy armor and was sad he failed. I admire that he resisted the temptation to rape her even if he would have been socially rewarded for that. I liked even more that he found the courage to oppose Joffrey several times to protect her. I respect that he was a good and comprehensive leader for his clansmen and sellswords. I like that he got Pycelle beard cut and smashed Marillon's hand. He had my support to get a blackmailer threatening the safety of a girl he loved killed, how he treated Slynt and got his baby killer drowned, everytime he intrigued against Cersei, everytime he served his family and everytime he betrayed it. I love that he got the world rid of Tywin. I have no problem with what he did to Shae. I was touched by how low he fell in ADWD. I was happy to see him start rebunding. I love his ambiguous protective relation with Penny. I love his big mouth with all the problems it cause, and comprehend his thoughts as full of selfishness, loathing or delusion they may be. And finally everything I love in Tyrion I love it even more thinking about hows every short minded moralist on the internet can't stand him.

When I read The Accursed Kings I have no problem rooting for Robert d'Artois who did nearly all the bad things Tyrion did but to real people and with less good motives.

When I watch The Borgias I have no problem rooting for Cesare who did things ten thousand times worse than Robert d'Artois.

When I watch a Scorcese movie, guess what, I'm not rooting for the FBI.

Never had to argue with any fan about that. Seems there's only here where you are supposed to be obsessed by morality and have it questionned all the time like if you were some priest found in a brothel, if you don't prefer some bland shallow characters to the real thing just because they didn't do this or didn't do that. In the Silmarillon it's certainly not Tuor chapter I've re-read 10 times more than all others, rather Turin's.

Tyrion has the qualities of all heroes I like, he's very human and super-human, he's badass and terribly weak, he's a victim and a tormentor, he's a good guy and worse than anyone. I'm not loving the good part of Tyrion but the whole character, and not being an angel is part of it,

Haters gonna hate and that's it.

:bowdown:

Well said. I wish I could 'like' this.

[LordStoneheart]

Well, he's the most entertaining Lannister by far. But I hesitate to call myself a 'fan' of him anymore. I don't think he's too far gone to be redeemed like his siblings, but it would take a lot for me to 'like' him again. His arc in Dance is supposed to show just how low he can go and maybe farther. At best, I guess I don't wish death upon him. :)