Stannis stepping aside

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Yes. North, Riverlands, Iron Isles and Dorne don't recognize Tommen as their King.

FTFY. So far, only the Iron Islands are in open defiance, everyone else at least pretends to play ball. (Of course universal recognition is hardly the card you should play, when advocating Stannis' truekingness.)

[Stannis's Lawyer]

FTFY. So far, only the Iron Islands are in open defiance, everyone else at least pretends to play ball. (Of course universal recognition is hardly the card you should play, when advocating Stannis' truekingness.)

And also, half the North. And some patches of defiance in the Reach. And half the Stormlands.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

No it doesn't. Robert's claim came from the fact that his warhammer was making out with Rhaegar's chest.

Since when conquering something is stealing something? Since when Tommen is the recognized king of Westeros?

By this logic it shouldn't matter who your relatives are, since anyone who kills a king would inherit his claim. I guess in this case The Boar should be king since he killed Robert (or maybe lancel for the wine or Cersei for telling lancel what to do?)

That's not how monarchy works.

Robert asserted his claim by killing or exiling every other claimant.

[Steelborn]

By this logic it shouldn't matter who your relatives are, since anyone who kills a king would inherit his claim. I guess in this case The Boar should be king since he killed Robert (or maybe lancel for the wine or Cersei for telling lancel what to do?)

That's not how monarchy works.

Robert asserted his claim by killing or exiling every other claimant.

Then what was Aegon the Conqueror's claim?

[Ella Dendron]

Aegon would have to had the support of all the great houses (without removing the current leaders for more suitable houses *cough* Bolton & Baelish *cough* - that's also why I don't believe that Tommen is recognized as a king. You can't just replace the people who don't support you with your supporters and call yourself a rightful king)

[kimim]

dude, the man himself commanded a siege against the last targaryens and kicked them out of westeros. Do you feel he thinks they have a claim?

Sorry but my bad english doesnt allow me to follow your probably clever show.

I stay in my point. Stannis laid siege and forced a clear targaryen heir to ran away from westeros. Why would he think different of aegon?

Obvious answer is obvious :agree: He supported his bro in Robert's Rebellion. If Stannis had called for removing the mad king and Rhaegar, and replacing them with Aegon, or with another Targ, or something like that, he might bend the knee to a Targ. As things stand, not a chance in hell.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Then what was Aegon the Conqueror's claim?

there was nothing to claim. He created the iron throne and hence the kingdom by seizing lands from from previously independent nations. That's what conquering is.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Obvious answer is obvious :agree: He supported his bro in Robert's Rebellion. If Stannis had called for removing the mad king and Rhaegar, and replacing them with Aegon, or with another Targ, or something like that, he might bend the knee to a Targ. As things stand, not a chance in hell.

Actually, We don't know what stannis, Ned, Jon Arryn, or anyone intended to do with other Targ claimants at the time they entered the rebellion. The idea that Robert would be king rather than Aegon came much later

IMO the rebellion was always about removing Aerys, and additionally for Robert, killing Rhaegar.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

there was nothing to claim. He created the iron throne and hence the kingdom by seizing lands from from previously independent nations. That's what conquering is.

So, by your logic, the Tyrells have no claim to Highgarden, as the Lordship of Highgarden was founded by the Gardeners. Likewise, the Greyjoys have no right to the Seastone Chair as the Greyjoys did not found the Kingdom of the Iron Islands.

Yeah. Not buying that.

[unitron]

Stannis is dead set on getting the throne, and not just because he is Robert's true heir. He won't stop fighting until he dies.

That's the thing about Stannis--it's all about being Robert's true heir.

He believes that he is Robert's true heir, therefore the way that things are supposed to be is that he is supposed to be the king.

He doesn't want to be the king because he wants to be the king, he wants things to be the way they are supposed to be, regardless of what that is.

If he thought that Cersei's children were fathered by Robert, he'd be the first to put the crown on Joffrey's head, for no reason other than that's the way it's supposed to be.

[El Guapo]

So, by your logic, the Tyrells have no claim to Highgarden, as the Lordship of Highgarden was founded by the Gardeners. Likewise, the Greyjoys have no right to the Seastone Chair as the Greyjoys did not found the Kingdom of the Iron Islands.

Yeah. Not buying that.

At the time of the conquest they really didn't have a claim.

Ruling it for 300 years gave them their legitimacy.

.

[Salafi Stannis]

.

[unitron]

At the time of the conquest they really didn't have a claim.

...

.

Who needs a valid claim when you have dragons?

[A spoon of knife and fork]

So, by your logic, the Tyrells have no claim to Highgarden, as the Lordship of Highgarden was founded by the Gardeners. Likewise, the Greyjoys have no right to the Seastone Chair as the Greyjoys did not found the Kingdom of the Iron Islands.

Yeah. Not buying that.

Nope.

The Tyrells were granted highgarden by Aegon, aka someone with higher authority over the realm. They had no claim at the time they were given it.

The second lord tyrell had a claim to highgarden being the descendent of a lord of high garden. Any other decendent of lords of high garden would have competing claims that may have various degrees of recognition. Objectively speaking, both claims exist.

For the IT, there is no higher power who can declare someone king. Hence, all claims are derived from decent from Aegon

[unitron]

... You can't just replace the people who don't support you with your supporters and call yourself a rightful king...

Of course not.

You get your supporters to call you the rightful king.

And since you got rid of those who would have disagreed...

[Amy Peel]

Targaryen originally aren't from Westeros, they are conquerors. Stannis lineage ties to Westeros way back before them. But I think every House is a conqueror no thrue rightful king or queen.

The Targaryens brought Orys Baratheon with them when the came to Westeros, how does his lineage precede the Targaryens in Westeros? Storms End was granted to the Baratheons by Aegon for his leal service, it originally belonged to the Durrandons.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

A gaggle of silly gooses up in this thread. This is my contribution. You're welcome.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

For the IT, there is no higher power who can declare someone king. Hence, all claims are derived from decent from Aegon

That's a very absolutistic idea. But Westeros doesn't know absolutism. It's a feudal society. The feudal contract is what legitimised Aegon - and Robert. Without a new and all-encompassing feudal contract, Stannis has the best claim of all, there is no way around it.

The Targaryens brought Orys Baratheon with them when the came to Westeros, how does his lineage precede the Targaryens in Westeros? Storms End was granted to the Baratheons by Aegon for his leal service, it originally belonged to the Durrandons.

Argella Durrandon. The poor woman raped by Orys. Fortunately her descendants came after the mother.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

That's a very absolutistic idea. But Westeros doesn't know absolutism. It's a feudal society. The feudal contract is what legitimised Aegon - and Robert.

There was no new feudal contract for Robert, is what I am arguing. He just carried on. With one that already existed.

If anyone could take over anyone's seat just by murdering them there would be mass Chaos . Nothing we have seen in the books suggest this is true for any feudal monarchy.

Without a new and all-encompassing feudal contract, Stannis has the best claim of all, there is no way around it.

Being a brother of a king, stannis claim is very strong.

Being the son or grandson of one like Aegon is also a strong claim.

Daenerys claim is not good unless she has a son, then his claim would be strong.

[RoamingRonin]

I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?

Davos could make out Fury well to the southeast, her sails shimmering golden as they came down, the crowned stag of Baratheon blazoned on the canvas. From her decks Stannis Baratheon had commanded the assault on Dragonstone sixteen years before

And anyway, you are obiusly messing with me. The point is not if the little dragons were or were not there when he attacked. The point to the thread is he was agressive to a targaryen heir as good as aegon.

yet you started to nickpick when I said Targaryens got to ran from him when is actually what they did.

Not nitpicking. I just don't like when people hype up characters for doing stuff they didn't actually do. Why do you think you can say Stannis "laid siege" when he didn't? Fact is: the Targaryens loyalist were ready to surrender and Dany and Viserys were too young to do anything but flee.