Yukle Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 It also says fallen foes, neither the Starks or Arryns fell The Vale fell. At first they had the upper hand since they forced the Targaryen fleet away and routed their ships. Then Visenya set their fleet ablaze. Some of the Vale Lords revolted against House Arryn and the Kingdom soon submitted. They were conquered - only the North and Dorne weren't taken by combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordBloodraven Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 The text is ambiguous but Aegon did not take any swords from Torrhen Stark and his army. The "swords" in that quote refer to them bending the knee, and being Aegon's vassals, not their "swords" per se. Here's the quote with more context: There upon the south bank of the Trident, he knelt, laid the ancient crown of the Kings of Winter at Aegon’s feet, and swore to be his man. He rose as Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, a king no more. From that day to this day, Torrhen Stark is remembered as the King Who Knelt… but no northman left his burned bones beside the Trident, and the swords Aegon collected from Lord Stark and his vassals were not twisted or melted or bent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 The text is ambiguous but Aegon did not take any swords from Torrhen Stark and his army. The "swords" in that quote refer to them bending the knee, and being Aegon's vassals, not their "swords" per se. Here's the quote with more context: There upon the south bank of the Trident, he knelt, laid the ancient crown of the Kings of Winter at Aegon’s feet, and swore to be his man. He rose as Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, a king no more. From that day to this day, Torrhen Stark is remembered as the King Who Knelt… but no northman left his burned bones beside the Trident, and the swords Aegon collected from Lord Stark and his vassals were not twisted or melted or bent. I think it's pretty clear he's talking about actual swords. Metaphorical swords wouldn't be twisted or melted or bent. I'm not sure if he used the northern swords in the making of the throne or maybe he put them somewhere with the Crown of Winter, but it's clear to me that he collected them. My interpretation is that there are no Stark swords in the IT. “From there Aegon the Dragon ruled his realm, holding court from a great metal seat made from the melted, twisted, beaten, and broken blades of all his fallen foes” And since the Stark swords were not twisted, melted or bent, I don't see how these swords could have been used to forge the IT. Nothing suggests that there are Arryn swords in the IT either. From my interpretation of the text, the swords used to forge the IT came from the Field of Fire, Harren the Black and Argilac the Arrogant. That is pretty good evidence that he didn't use northern swords in the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordBloodraven Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 I think it's pretty clear he's talking about actual swords. Metaphorical swords wouldn't be twisted or melted or bent. I'm not sure if he used the northern swords in the making of the throne or maybe he put them somewhere with the Crown of Winter, but it's clear to me that he collected them. My interpretation is that there are no Stark swords in the IT. “From there Aegon the Dragon ruled his realm, holding court from a great metal seat made from the melted, twisted, beaten, and broken blades of all his fallen foes” And since the Stark swords were not twisted, melted or bent, I don't see how these swords could have been used to forge the IT. Nothing suggests that there are Arryn swords in the IT either. From my interpretation of the text, the swords used to forge the IT came from the Field of Fire, Harren the Black and Argilac the Arrogant. That is pretty good evidence that he didn't use northern swords in the throne. No, Aegon received the "swords" of the North without having them twisted, bent or melted. There was no fight, Torrhen bent the knee and pledged his "swords" to Aegon and his sisters. But he kept his swords (arms). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lyman Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 The Vale fell. At first they had the upper hand since they forced the Targaryen fleet away and routed their ships. Then Visenya set their fleet ablaze. Some of the Vale Lords revolted against House Arryn and the Kingdom soon submitted. They were conquered - only the North and Dorne weren't taken by combat. The Vale was involved in combat, but they weren't taken by combat. Queen Sharra found King Ronnel Arryn wanting to go flying with the Queen Visenya. His mothers motherly instinct probably kicked in as well and she went and got her regents coronet, her son's small crown, and the Falcon Crown and gave them to Visenya. The revolts (from only the Three Sister) happened before the Field of Fire, where s the submission happened afterwards. The two had nothing to do with each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 No, Aegon received the "swords" of the North without having them twisted, bent or melted. There was no fight, Torrhen bent the knee and pledged his "swords" to Aegon and his sisters. But he kept his swords (arms). I'm with you until that last sentence. I wasn't saying the northern swords were twisted bent or melted. I know there was no fight. I was saying that if Glydayn was talking about metaphorical swords he would not have brought up the possibility of them being twisted bent or melted. So I think it's clear he was talking about actual physical swords. Sorry if I was unclear before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Of course he took the swords, it says it right in the book. He just didn't need to burn and mangle their owners. Also the title of this thread is a double negative. "None were NOT"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 The Vale was involved in combat, but they weren't taken by combat. Queen Sharra found King Ronnel Arryn wanting to go flying with the Queen Visenya. His mothers motherly instinct probably kicked in as well and she went and got her regents coronet, her son's small crown, and the Falcon Crown and gave them to Visenya. The revolts (from only the Three Sister) happened before the Field of Fire, where s the submission happened afterwards. The two had nothing to do with each other. Well, the swords would have had to be taken from the armies they assembled at the Bloody Gate. But, we know now the Targs didn't want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 I'm shocked that a self-styled "Lion of the West" would have so easily forgotten that Jaime demands the ARMS and armor of the men at Riverrun when negotiating for the castle's surrender. Your condescending snark is appreciated, and I will keep an eye out for the link. I remember it being a big deal when it was first seen, so it exists somewhere. My poster-name is to tell where I put my sympahty in regards to the series. I have never claimed to know every detail of the books by heart and I'll be the first person to agree there are many people who knows the books better than me. How is it condescending or snarky? You said that there was a SSM or blog post related to it but you didn't have the link. So I said that if you would find the link, please share it with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Academic Wolf Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Nope. Three Sisters rebelled against the Vale after their fleet was burned.Which is before the Field of Fire. Visenya is then summoned by Aegon to the Field of Fire. Unless I missed what you are trying to argue?So it goes (clipped notes version)-Aegon lands-Visenya and Lord Velaryon sent with the fleet to subdue the Vale-Aegon marches on Harrenhal, after subduing Rosby, Duskendale, and Maidenpool-Orys and Rhaenys march on Storms End-Arryn Fleet destroys Targaryen fleet, Visenya destroys the Arryn Fleet. Sisters Rebell against Arryns-Aegon takes Harrenhal, House Hoare estinguished, House Tully established as Lord Paramount of the Riverlands-Orys and Rhaenys kill Argillac and take the Stormlands-Field of Fire-Quick about turn, to meet Torrhen Stark-Submission of Torrhen Stark-Submission of Oldtown-Submission of Arryns when Visenya lands in the Eyrie and offers Ronnel Arryn a ride on her dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Which is before the Field of Fire. Visenya is then summoned by Aegon to the Field of Fire. Unless I missed what you are trying to argue?So it goes (clipped notes version)-Aegon lands-Visenya and Lord Velaryon sent with the fleet to subdue the Vale-Aegon marches on Harrenhal, after subduing Rosby, Duskendale, and Maidenpool-Orys and Rhaenys march on Storms End-Arryn Fleet destroys Targaryen fleet, Visenya destroys the Arryn Fleet. Sisters Rebell against Arryns-Aegon takes Harrenhal, House Hoare estinguished, House Tully established as Lord Paramount of the Riverlands-Orys and Rhaenys kill Argillac and take the Stormlands-Field of Fire-Quick about turn, to meet Torrhen Stark-Submission of Torrhen Stark-Submission of Oldtown-Submission of Arryns when Visenya lands in the Eyrie and offers Ronnel Arryn a ride on her dragon. I hadn't read your complete post. I edited it. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 The quote clearly indicates that he did take their swords, and they were likely used in creating the Iron Throne, they just weren't burned by dragon fire when he got them, simply indicating the fact that no northmen died fighting against Aegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Academic Wolf Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 I hadn't read your complete post. I edited it. Sorry. That is okay, no harm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukle Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 The Vale was involved in combat, but they weren't taken by combat. Queen Sharra found King Ronnel Arryn wanting to go flying with the Queen Visenya. His mothers motherly instinct probably kicked in as well and she went and got her regents coronet, her son's small crown, and the Falcon Crown and gave them to Visenya. The revolts (from only the Three Sister) happened before the Field of Fire, where s the submission happened afterwards. The two had nothing to do with each other. Hmm... maybe it is splitting hairs, but I still think that the Vale can be regarded as conquered through arms. They fought in a sea battle so the Targaryens changed tactics and sent in a dragon. This is more or less what they did everywhere else, the only difference was that upon seeing the threat of dragons, the Vale capitulated rather than allow the fighting to keep going. But they were definitely coming to blows already; and they were clashing violently. This is unlike the North, who never landed a single blow nor took one, and Dorne, who resisted the invasion. TWOIAF states that the North and Dorne are the only areas not taken by conquest, with Dorne the only one not taken at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lyman Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Hmm... maybe it is splitting hairs, but I still think that the Vale can be regarded as conquered through arms. They fought in a sea battle so the Targaryens changed tactics and sent in a dragon. This is more or less what they did everywhere else, the only difference was that upon seeing the threat of dragons, the Vale capitulated rather than allow the fighting to keep going. But they were definitely coming to blows already; and they were clashing violently. This is unlike the North, who never landed a single blow nor took one, and Dorne, who resisted the invasion. TWOIAF states that the North and Dorne are the only areas not taken by conquest, with Dorne the only one not taken at all. We'll just have to disagree then. It just seems to me that this was a unique situation where it was probably a good thing that House Arryn happened to have a child as a lord. Young boy sees a dragon that he thinks is cool, and his mother is looking out for his well-being. The same scene would probably have played out had Visenya gone their in the first place, therefore making the naval battle almost pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sielgaudys Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Were dornish swords taken later and riverlander, valemen? I fell like text is ambiguous for a reason and symbolizes independence of some regions.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Dornish swords were definitely not taken since Dorne was never conquered and only joined the 7K through a marriage pact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Thorn Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 What would be the sense in "pledging your swords" to someone if you no longer actually have any swords? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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