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unJon

Bakker XXXI: What Comes After

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Happy Ent's Intro:

This is the perpetual thread devoted to the works of R. Scott Bakker, primarily the books in the Second Apocalypse series, the first of which is The Darkness that Comes Before.

The current publication status is 5 volumes of novels, including The White-Luck Warrior, as well as 2 short stories, The False Sun, and The Four Revelations of Cinial'jin. This thread contains spoilers for these publications.

Since Bakker's writing uses layers of revelation, newcomers are strongly advised to finish the books before coming here; otherwise the spoilers will rot your soul. Eternally.

Most denizens of this thread have also read Bakker's non-fantasy novels Neuropath and Disciple of the Dog, but the spoiler policy is unclear. You are advised to hide crucial plot points in those novels.

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Bakker paradox inspired by thread title. Does cum come after or does cum come before orgasm? Is orgasm only a delusion of the worldborn?

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Regarding where souls fit in, I think Bakker is invoking soul/body dualism only as abstraction at the explanatory level. I doubt he'll go too deeply into this since most readers likely won't care, but the whole Dream of God thing suggests a kind of Idealism (all is mind) or Neutral Monism (all is something beyond mind & matter, in fact mind & matter are just ways of viewing this substance).



It also seems like, given the description of the Outside where pockets of reality are shaped by the whim/will of spirits (gods and ciphrang, not sure there's a difference) , that the Inward itself is just a large (infinite?) universe sized pocket.



Given some of the Gnostic themes, perhaps the Hundred made the Inward as a prison for souls. The only purpose of a mortal life a sort of refinement that adds to the souls' flavor after death. What is a soul, after all, but a pinched off piece of the dream stuff that makes up the Outside?



Perhaps the only way to be free is the Nonman path of Oblivion, which is really just recognition that one's "self" is but a matter of perspective. If Kellhus can convince all souls they are part of the same mind existing in a nonspatial context (explained to Akka as being in the same "here") perhaps he can end the Inward?


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Curious now that we know that the gods are real and stuff whether the Khahit (major sp) is something substantive rather than just some concept in a religious tradition.


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So the thread starts with five posts unrelated to each other? So much for that “you’re all ignoring me!!!” rant. Although, it might be better if a semblance of thread was maintained and folks actually talked to each other.



Anyway... Where did this idea that the Gods are blind to the Inchoroi come from? The Inchoroi are damned, they’re not No-Gods.


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The idea came from Kellhus explaining to esme why the gods would oppose Kellhus. Because they are blind to the no god.

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So the thread starts with five posts unrelated to each other?

I thought Trisk's post about the World Soul fit in with my post about the gods & souls, which in turn is referring to a post by Castel in the last thread where he suggests Bakker just decided to assume dualism without thinking up a solution to the Soul-Body Interaction problem.

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The idea came from Kellhus explaining to esme why the gods would oppose Kellhus. Because they are blind to the no god.

That’s fine. But are they blind to the Inchoroi?

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@Sci-2, I agree that the Nonmen path of Oblivion might be the only way to freedom without upending the entire system. And your idea for how Khellus might use this to free the world sounds very plausible.




@HelloWorld, I don't recall anything related to the Gods being blind to the Inchoroi specifically. But in WLW, there's a scene where Esmenet asks Thelopia to explain to the Synod why the Hundred appear to be against the Aspect Emperor. Thelopia relates the Mandate view that the gods "can only apprehend a finite por-portion of existence" and that the "No-God dwells in their blind spots". Is that what you're referring to?

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@HelloWorld, I don't recall anything related to the Gods being blind to the Inchoroi specifically. But in WLW, there's a scene where Esmenet asks Thelopia to explain to the Synod why the Hundred appear to be against the Aspect Emperor. Thelopia relates the Mandate view that the gods "can only apprehend a finite por-portion of existence" and that the "No-God dwells in their blind spots". Is that what you're referring to?

No, I was referring to several people saying in the last thread that the Gods are blind to the Inchoroi. But about Theliopa’s claim, I don’t find it implausible that the Gods are blind to the No-God, just how could Theliopa know that? Kellhus saying that the Gods oppose him because they are blind to the No-God? Could also be true but it’s just what she needed to hear.

From the last thread,

Comparing the "enchanted world" view to Dunyain philosophy, TWLW and TTT represent the ultimate expressions of those respective worldviews.

In the end perhaps the argument between Kellhus and Moënghus will be settled by whether TWLW or TTT/Kellhus prevails? (I’m referring to Moenghus' claim that “prophecy could not be”, and that “what comes before yet determines what comes after”, as opposed to Kellhus thinking that he “has been chosen” and that is the harbinger.) You know TTT/TJE settled the question of whether the Gods and so forth are real, but the question of causality still remains. Although, you might argue that TWLW has already settled it by managing to kill Maithanet.

The problem I have though is that Kellhus seems to have adopted TTT and the other view. He claims to have expanded it.

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No, I was referring to several people saying in the last thread that the Gods are blind to the Inchoroi. But about Theliopa’s claim, I don’t find it implausible that the Gods are blind to the No-God, just how could Theliopa know that? Kellhus saying that the Gods oppose him because they are blind to the No-God? Could also be true but it’s just what she needed to hear.

Regarding Theliopa, she's only restating the Mandate's position on the matter. I'm inclined to question the Gods being blind to the No-God as well. It seems almost incomprehensible to me that the Goddess of Birth would somehow miss a period of years where *all* babies were stillborn.

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So I had a little outburst and just wanna say sorry. Especially to @Triskan. I was having an exceptionally bad day and I guess I whined away like a little baby.

You guys, are fun to interact with and enjoy your posts. So, I stayed away a few days and figured me making an apology and being man enough to do so.......that just maybe y'all could find somewhere in your wretched hearts to forgive said outburst. I have a tendency to lash out at others when I'm having a bad time in my personal life and none of you deserved that. I can see how you can ignore this and me from now on, but truly I'm being sincere. Sorry again.

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The problem I have though is that Kellhus seems to have adopted TTT and the other view. He claims to have expanded it.

Unless Kellhus 'expanding' on TTT - or thinking that he expanded on it - was part of TTT all along. But even if not, Kellhus is the Mule, an anomaly unaccounted for by TTT.

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Thats fine. But are they blind to the Inchoroi?

I didn't think they were blind to the Inchies either. But to make a wild guess, perhaps they're blind to those who have seen the Inverse Fire?

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I thought Trisk's post about the World Soul fit in with my post about the gods & souls, which in turn is referring to a post by Castel in the last thread where he suggests Bakker just decided to assume dualism without thinking up a solution to the Soul-Body Interaction problem.

Confirmed. I was certainly riffing off of the concept you were exploring in the previous thread.

So I had a little outburst and just wanna say sorry. Especially to @Triskan. I was having an exceptionally bad day and I guess I whined away like a little baby.

It's no worries. Just know that I was not attacking you personally. You should check out the US politics threads. I actually take care to let folks know when I'm personally attacking them. :) (cause it's pretty rare, but sometimes warranted)

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