Targaryen twisted and deformed, scaled dragon babies, fishing for theories

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I hate to speak for SS, but I know her views fairly well (we frequent many of the same threads) and I can tell you that the part about Tyrion being deformed as a result of Targ blood is the one thing you wrote that she basically agrees with and that is on-topic for this thread. I think her point is that everything else you wrote--your discussion of Renly and Stannis and three hidden princes and Aegon being real is off-topic and incorrect. I think she believes Jon is the only hidden prince--that Tyrion is a Targ bastard (not a prince) and Aegon is really a Blackfyre descendant (not a prince). But she avoided debating these points with you on this thread because it would take a lot of space to explain why she disagrees on these points and would be too off topic.

P.S. While I don't agree 100% with every one of SS's views, I agree with most of them, including what I surmised that she meant above. Nevertheless, I respect your right to have different views, but I agree that most of what you wrote really is off-topic for this thread (again--other than Tyrion being deformed as a result of Targ blood which is on-topic).

:) Thanks.

yeah that's exactly what I meant.

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

“The lad’s a warg, or close enough,” put in Ragwyle, the big spearwife. “His wolf took a piece o’ Halfhand’s leg.”

The Weeper’s red rheumy eyes gave Jon another look. “Aye? Well, he has a wolfish cast to him, now as I look close."

“You take one, that’s a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you’re part of him. Both of you will change.”

I guess the change due to skinchanging is not only spiritual, especially if the skinchanger loses the control and dissipates into the beast.

“You Westerosi are all the same. You sew some beast upon a scrap of silk, and suddenly you are all lions or dragons or eagles."

Not all Westerosi are the same. Ask the Starks.

Even among the wildlings, these skinchangers were feared as unnatural men who could call on animals as allies.

Keep the unnatural in mind.

Though considered disreputable in this, our present day, a fragment of Septon Barth’s Unnatural History has proved a source of controversy in the halls of the Citadel. Claiming to have consulted with texts said to be preserved at Castle Black, Septon Barth put forth that the children of the forest could speak with ravens and could make them repeat their words. According to Barth, this higher mystery was taught to the First Men by the children so that ravens could spread messages at a great distance. It was passed, in degraded form, down to the maesters today , who no longer know how to speak to the birds.

Barth was completely right, as proved by Bloodraven. Keep also in mind that Barth somehow studied skinchanging because it is what ravencraft is all about.

In Septon Barth’s Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns, he speculated that the bloodmages of Valyria used wyvern stock to create dragons. Though the bloodmages were alleged to have experimented mightily with their unnatural arts , this claim is considered far-fetched by most maesters, among them Maester Vanyon’s Against the Unnatural contains certain proofs of dragons having existed in Westeros even in the earliest of days, before Valyria rose to be a power.

Actually, Barth didnot claim that the dragons were created by the Valyrians for the first time. In fact, he examined many different accounts about the origins of dragons such as the Qartheen story Doreah told, and the others. This means that Barth didnot know the origins of dragons or the part in which he proved the origins of the dragons were censored by the Citadel.

In short, proving that dragons existed before Valyria does not refute Barth's claim that Valyrians used wyvern stock to create dragons. We know from the Kindly Man that fire wyrms that were unable to fly infested the mines and tunnels of fourteen flames. Wyverns originate from Sothoryos.

Therefore, forcing wyverns and firewyrms to copulate and produce "unnatural" abominations which we call dragons seems like the real deal. Speaking of abominations and how did the Valyrians forced these beasts into not eating each other but mating;

To eat of human meat was abomination, to mate as wolf with wolf was abomination, and to seize the body of another man was the worst abomination of all.

So, I think Valyrians skinchanged into firewyrms and wyverns to mate them and produce offspring. So much dealing with these abominations took its toll on them.

I think I might actually be sold on this.

I guess my main question is what exactly happened to the skinchanging ability? If it's mostly gone because of the lack of incest in certain generations why don't the Starks have this problem? They have incest in their family tree but the Targaryens have way more so why isn't this a thing?

[Mithras]

I think I might actually be sold on this.

I guess my main question is what exactly happened to the skinchanging ability? If it's mostly gone because of the lack of incest in certain generations why don't the Starks have this problem? They have incest in their family tree but the Targaryens have way more so why isn't this a thing?

I think skinchanging is not only about blood. Bloodraven said that the old gods mark the ones whom they will give the gift of greensight. I think it is very likely that skinchanging potential exists more or less in many people but the old gods (i.e. the collective intelligence of past greenseers) try to give it to the right people for their own purposes. All the Stark kids being powerful wargs (with Bran being a prodigy of greensight) seems like a "divine" interpretation than pure luck.

Perhaps the old gods tried to take the gift back from the Valyrians after seeing their empire of slavery, but the Valyrians defied them and practiced incest to ensure that skinchanging blood is kept pure; using blood magic and dragonhorns where a skinchanging Valyrian could not be found.

If the wargs are special skinchangers who wear the skin of wolves, perhaps we should invent a word for skinchangers who wear the skins of dragons.

[Elm Tree]

I'm not so sure about Tyrion being malformed as a result of Targ blood (tbh I would hate it if he is a secret Targ, I'm not neutral on this point) because Tyrion lives. Do we have any information regarding births from Targs with the children being alive/living beyond the age of one, while being twisted and deformed?

[UnmaskedLurker]

:) Thanks.

yeah that's exactly what I meant.

I've got your back. :thumbsup: :cheers:

[Lord Varys]

I don't think we can identify the old gods with the greenseer collective. That would mean that the Children and the First Men deified some of their own members, which, although not completely impossible, seems to be rather unlikely. We see that the actual old gods religion is some sort of animism of the sort Varamyr's family followed. The fact that modern-day First Men mistake the faces in the trees (or the greenseers who look through them) as 'gods' does not mean that this was the same type of thing the old First Men believed.

In that sense I'd think that Bloodraven/the Children really believe that their gods - i.e. the forces of nature - mark greenseers, not the greenseers themselves. There is also no hint that the Children actually worship their greenseers as gods. They revere them and make use of them, but they do not worship them.

Not to mention that skinchanging is only an ability connected to the Children/First Men in Westeros, not to the Valyrians or people in Essos in general. Thus I'm pretty sure that it will turn out that it is a trait that only entered certain human bloodlines due to some interbreeding with the Children (although not the guy who may or may not have been the historical example for the Winged Knight - rather the Warg King on Sea Dragon Point, the Marsh King and other crannogmen, and possibly even some ancient Starks/Dustins).

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I see no real evidence that its the non-Targ brides that give birth to monsters. It seems random at best. Sometimes the gene is active, sometimes not.

I don't think the Targs are skinchangers, at no point does Dany become part of Drogon's mind. There is a bond but its not a skinchanging one. Unless the gift was never advanced further than Sansa's did.

[Mithras]

The gift has to be studied and advanced. A near death experience helps a lot.

I never said that dragons are easy to skinchange. Perhaps everyone should start with a dog and see that whether they can do it.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Funny how we are never told about how easy a Dragon is to skin change. People assume it really hard but we've not heard of anyone trying if I'm not mistaken.

Its always 'Jaehaerys I fought Wargs' but no evidence he actually did but rather he came back from the wall with folk tales he told his kids. Or the WOIAF suggestion the First Men kicked out the Valyrians pre-Targ but no talk of a battle. Or Torrhen bending the knee so you don't see if he had any wargs at all going into battle with the dragons. Its whetting the appetite I think for us to find out.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Funny how we are never told about how easy a Dragon is to skin change. People assume it really hard but we've not heard of anyone trying if I'm not mistaken.

Its always 'Jaehaerys I fought Wargs' but no evidence he actually did but rather he came back from the wall with folk tales he told his kids. Or the WOIAF suggestion the First Men kicked out the Valyrians pre-Targ but no talk of a battle. Or Torrhen bending the knee so you don't see if he had any wargs at all going into battle with the dragons. Its whetting the appetite I think for us to find out.

We are never told how easy it is because it has never happened. I doubt it's 'easy'.

If there is an ice dragon in The Wall or dragons sleeping under Winterfell, then Bloodraven would have warged them a long time ago if it was 'easy'.

[Mithras]

From the experience of Varamyr, wild beasts, especially adults ones, are very hard to "break".

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

We are never told how easy it is because it has never happened. I doubt it's 'easy'.

If there is an ice dragon in The Wall or dragons sleeping under Winterfell, then Bloodraven would have warged them a long time ago if it was 'easy'.

Or there isn't a Dragon in the North. We don't know how easy or how hard it is. The minds of Dragons are animalistic after all, surely not as hard as a human unless they are not of nature. The Children sing the song of the Earth, worship the gods in the trees, can commune with birds and beasts. If Dragons are not of the earth there may be a problem.

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

If the wargs are special skinchangers who wear the skin of wolves, perhaps we should invent a word for skinchangers who wear the skins of dragons.

Dwargs. ;-p

[Brian Boru Brightflame]

its not whether or not Tyrion was in reality what the rumors said he was. its the fact that those rumors even existed thats important imo. the existence of said rumors is strong evidence that there were rather wide spread rumors that the mad king was tyrions father. they are traits characteristic of unfortunate Targ new borns. and these rumors came about because those that started them believed that new born Tyrion was a Targ. its pretty obvious really

[Suzanna Stormborn]

its not whether or not Tyrion was in reality what the rumors said he was. its the fact that those rumors even existed thats important imo. the existence of said rumors is strong evidence that there were rather wide spread rumors that the mad king was tyrions father. they are traits characteristic of unfortunate Targ new borns. and these rumors came about because those that started them believed that new born Tyrion was a Targ. its pretty obvious really

Yes that is the exact point I was making. Widespread rumors that the king fathered Tyrion would naturally lead to the common folk thinking that he would be deformed in the same ways as Aerys' previous stillbirths.

Which is a huge hint towards A+J=T. The common folk believed him to be the bastard of the king and so do I. :)

[Maid So Fair]

its not whether or not Tyrion was in reality what the rumors said he was. its the fact that those rumors even existed thats important imo. the existence of said rumors is strong evidence that there were rather wide spread rumors that the mad king was tyrions father. they are traits characteristic of unfortunate Targ new borns. and these rumors came about because those that started them believed that new born Tyrion was a Targ. its pretty obvious really

I don't think the rumours prove anything. This is a society without TV or radio, where all the scandalous news would be distributed by word of mouth. As we have seen with Stannis and the incest and Selyse/Patchface, the gorier, more embarrassing and more depraved the quicker the rumour will spread. The smallfolk want to believe the worst about their lords to bring them down to their level and doubly so for a man like Tywin. The fact he had a dwarf son would be more than enough to start the rumour mill. The man on the street would not know details about Aerys's miscarried children IMHO as such info would be kept under wraps (whereas you can't hide Tyrion) and wouldn't know enough detail to compare the two situations.

I'm also going to play the devil's advocate and point out that plausible descriptions of stillborn/miscarried children are limited, so it's not surprising that the vocabulary used matches, and genetic disorders/normal stages of fetus development might easily make people unfamiliar with modern medicine think 'monster'.

But I think the fact that the Targs have such a long history of childbearing problems is another hint towards A+J=T, especially since we never hear about anything similar on Lannister side. In fact, the Lannisters seem exceptionally fertile.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Or there isn't a Dragon in the North. We don't know how easy or how hard it is. The minds of Dragons are animalistic after all, surely not as hard as a human unless they are not of nature. The Children sing the song of the Earth, worship the gods in the trees, can commune with birds and beasts. If Dragons are not of the earth there may be a problem.

I do not think there is another dragons in the North either, and I doubt one will ever be warged.

I think posters WANT there to be another dragon so that Dany will not be special in that respect. But they all quickly forget that dragons have been extinct for 150 years. Same thing with the direwolves, not that they were extinct but they have been absent for years. Magic has been gone from Planteos, and now it's back. This is a major theme in the books, no way it will just be cast aside,

GOT Chapter 1, "Direwolves loose in the realm after so many years, I like it not." --Jory

"They were the last of the Targaryen dragons anywhere, and they had not lived very long." Tyrion GOT

Then there is this clencher statement, which is not even from Dany's POV, but switched to an omnipotent POV for this one statement at the very end of GOT.

"As Daenerys Targaryen rose to her feet, her black hissed, pale smoke venting from its mouth and nostrils. The other two pulled away from her breasts and added their voices to the call, translucent wings unfolding and stirring the air, and for the first time in hundreds of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons."

I doubt GRRM will just casually forget everything we have previously been told about dragons and all-of-a-sudden have one hiding in Winterfell. That is wishful fanfic and nothing more.

[The Snark of Winterfell]

I do not think there is another dragons in the North either, and I doubt one will ever be warged.

I think posters WANT there to be another dragon so that Dany will not be special in that respect. But they all quickly forget that dragons have been extinct for 150 years. Same thing with the direwolves, not that they were extinct but they have been absent for years. Magic has been gone from Planteos, and now it's back. This is a major theme in the books, no way it will just be cast aside,

GOT Chapter 1, "Direwolves loose in the realm after so many years, I like it not." --Jory

"They were the last of the Targaryen dragons anywhere, and they had not lived very long." Tyrion GOT

Then there is this clencher statement, which is not even from Dany's POV, but switched to an omnipotent POV for this one statement at the very end of GOT.

"As Daenerys Targaryen rose to her feet, her black hissed, pale smoke venting from its mouth and nostrils. The other two pulled away from her breasts and added their voices to the call, translucent wings unfolding and stirring the air, and for the first time in hundreds of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons."

I doubt GRRM will just casually forget everything we have previously been told about dragons and all-of-a-sudden have one hiding in Winterfell. That is wishful fanfic and nothing more.

I agree with you the rebirth of magic or gods, led to the presence of the direwolves, rebirth of warging, birth of dragons, glass candles, etc

But still wouldn't be surprised if some more dragons pop out of left fielD, whether or not they are Targ Dragons. TPatQ certainly left open that possibility, we know that at least two dragons survived in Sheepstealer and Cannibal surviving, Nettles survived as well as a capable dragon rider.

Someone theorized that Nettles and sheepstealer were in the Vale based on its' chapter in TWOIAF describing the Painted Dogs in the mountains.

“This practice might have originated in the years after the Dance of the Dragons, some maesters believe, when an offshoot clan of the Painted Dogs were said to have worshipped a fire-witch in the mountains, sending their boys to bring her gifts and risk the flames of the dragon she commanded to prove their manhood.”

A lot of people I've read think Cannibal is on Skagos basically because he is a loner and Skagos is known for cannibals, nothing too strong there but he lived.

So we got 1 tamed and 1 wild dragon confirmed alive and not in the possession of the Targs about 200 years ago. There was no cataclysm like the Doom. So I think it's possible there are dragons in existence.

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

So we got 1 tamed and 1 wild dragon confirmed alive and not in the possession of the Targs about 200 years ago. There was no cataclysm like the Doom. So I think it's possible there are dragons in existence.

I can see an ice dragon being around but not any others. Surely somebody would have seen something in the 200 years or so since Cannibal and Sheepstealer were last officially seen.

[mankytoes]

I think it's because the Valyrians originate near the fourteen flames like the dragons, which explains why they alone have the power to subdue/tame dragons. Some of the dragonlord families controlled their dragons with horns, some used sorcery like the Targs (same as what Dany did in the pyre). And during said sorcery, genes were magically mixed and part of the dragons imprinted on the Targaryens. So for the rest of time Targaryens sometimes have deformed dragon-like babies.

You left out Rhaenyra in Patq.

I think there's definitely a reason it's repeatedly made clear to us that "the secrets of Valyria are lost". There is important information that will be revealed, and the only way it could be plausably not known until now would be the almost total loss of Valyrian knowledge. Some literal part to "blood of the dragon" would be my guess too.