Targaryen twisted and deformed, scaled dragon babies, fishing for theories

[Suzanna Stormborn]

This 'Gerion is the Corsair King' theory is just a fancy tale. The idea that Gerion might actually be the Shrouded Lord is much more likely if you ask me, and if that's the case then there still exists a deleted chapter in which Tyrion meets him which may read eventually.

But if that's the case, then this does not have any real importance for the story, or does not really fit into the narrative in the way George wants it, which is why it was deleted.

The return of one uncle who was presumed to be dead is more than enough for the narrative. There are plenty of other interesting Lannisters that could be flashed out.

I do think Gerion will show up soon, he may be the Corsair King or the Shrouded Lord, but I know 1000% that he is not the father of Tyrion Lannister.

[Mithras]

What would be the importance of such a development. There are many reasons why A+J=T can have significance for the story (head of the dragon and/or ride a dragon, just to name a couple). But what difference would it make to find out that Gerion Lannister is Tyrion's bio-dad? How would that affect the narrative? How would that move the story forward?

I posted it a million times that these two are giant red herrings. What other purposes does A+J=T serve?

[UnmaskedLurker]

I posted it a million times that these two are giant red herrings. What other purposes does A+J=T serve?

Oh, if you are right that they are red herrings (I don't but you do, so I will assume it for the moment), then A+J=T is wrong and Tyrion is just the son of Tywin. So even if for purposes of this discussion, I assume A+J=/=T, that does not mean Gerion is Tyrion's father. So I ask again, what purpose in the narrative would it serve for Gerion to be the father? How would it affect the narrative or move the story forward?

[Mithras]

Oh, if you are right that they are red herrings (I don't but you do, so I will assume it for the moment), then A+J=T is wrong and Tyrion is just the son of Tywin. So even if for purposes of this discussion, I assume A+J=/=T, that does not mean Gerion is Tyrion's father. So I ask again, what purpose in the narrative would it serve for Gerion to be the father? How would it affect the narrative or move the story forward?

First you tell me what how can A+J=T move the story forward except the controversial (head of the dragon and/or ride a dragon, just to name a couple). Then I will tell you mine.

[UnmaskedLurker]

First you tell me what how can A+J=T move the story forward except the controversial (head of the dragon and/or ride a dragon, just to name a couple). Then I will tell you mine.

I don't really think it can and I would not try (although people more creative than I might give it a whirl). Basically, I disagree with your premise that these are red herrings. If you are right and I am wrong about these being red herrings, then most likely there is no purpose for A+J=T and it probably won't be true. But I have given you a scenario in which A+J=T is relevant to the narrative. You don't think those plot developments will happen, and that is fine. You might be right, and if you are, then I am probably wrong about all of it.

So here I have told you how A+J=T might be relevant to the narrative. It might be relevant to the narrative if you are not just wrong about A+J=T, but if you are also wrong that head of the dragon/dragon rider needing Targ blood are only red herrings. But if they are not red herrings (and no one can know for sure at this point if they are), then there is a narrative basis for the revelation of A+J=T and it would move the story forward.

What I am trying to understand--and I genuinely mean that I want to understand--is the theory as to how Gerion as Tyrion's father would matter to the narrative or move the story forward. There would have to be some basis for this development--it would not merely get revealed and then have absolutely no affect on the story, would it? So if it is going to affect the story, I am trying to understand how it might.

[The Snark of Winterfell]

There are several ways that Tyrion being a Targ would affect the narrative, most I don't like, but the obvious head of the dragon/dragon riding, there are theories about the first men and Targs are special, I.e ice and fire while the Andals really have no place on westeros. Lann the clever may have been an Andal according to TWOIAF. And Tyrion would be a product of two Lannisters. There are a ton of things that can happen if he is blood of the dragon in the ice and fire scheme. I don't like secret Targs, but Targ blood means something, that's why there are so many stupid secret Targ theories.

Mithras, not trying to poo poo anything your saying, I'm not familiar witht the Gerion Lannisters as Tyrions dad theory, what's the basis of it, haven't picked up on any hints in that in my reading. What's the basic framework on why this is he case

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I dont like the talk of Tyrion here. We are talking about part reptiles, not someone with dwarfism, they are not comparable.

[Lady Barbrey]

I read most of this thread but not all of it. Has anyone said yet that dragons are possibly radioactive so pregnant women shouldn't spend time around them or their eggs? That could account for most of the deformities, the incest for others.

The descriptions of the babies sound like radiation malformities.

[Vegeta_Greyjoy]

I posted it a million times that these two are giant red herrings. What other purposes does A+J=T serve?

I really hope it's left open to interpretation, and Martin never ever tells us.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

Many things are still missing:

From Aegon III to Daenerys I dragons were extinct and magic had disappeared,yet still deformed Targaryen babies were born and Targaryens had dragon dreams.

If there was something wrong about their DNA how could they have prophetic dreams from the time they lived in Valyria?

Targaryens don't seem to have taken many Valyrians with them.Only house Velaryon and Celtigar.There is no Valyrian smallfolk in Westeros to carry memories from their lost country,so many things got lost in the Doom.Maybe the Valyria/Fourteen Flames was a place of fire magic and with the Doom they were cut off it or maybe the truth lies in the words of house Targaryen:fire for blood and blood for fire.To get one you must sacrifice the other.

[Maester Barth]

I am not sure what you mean. In the real world, the more generations of incest that occurs, the more genetic defects that tend to come out. And it is not just with pure incest--any isolated group can have the same effect. Hemophilia by the British royals, Tay-Sachs Disease among Ashkenazi Jews, etc. The more isolated a gene pool, the more likely a recessive mutation will become prominent. So one case of a brother/sister marriage will not be as likely to result in genetic defects as multiple generations of such couplings.

But GRRM has made it clear that genetics on Planetos are not qute the same as our world.

Where did GRRM make that clear? It seems obvious to me that different species can produce offspring in this world... like you could breed a dog and a shark and make a shark dog in twoiaf. They suggest that dragons may have actually been bread between the fire wyrms from Valeria and the wyrvens from Sothyros.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Where did GRRM make that clear? It seems obvious to me that different species can produce offspring in this world... like you could breed a dog and a shark and make a shark dog in twoiaf. They suggest that dragons may have actually been bread between the fire wyrms from Valeria and the wyrvens from Sothyros.

I believe it came up when he was questioned about the Baratheons "the seed is strong" issue in terms of Cersei's children being blond (because in the "real world"--with blond as recessive--it would not be impossible for Robert to have blond children given that he has some non-Baratheon ancestors, but apparently on Westeros, the Baratheon dark coloring always controls). So obviously, I am not talking about "in story" but in interviews, I am fairly certain that GRRM stated that genetic rules in Westeros are not identical to real-world genetic rules. I am not that good at searching for SSMs so I am not sure I can find it, but I am pretty sure I am remembering correctly that he said it.

[Liaraeyne]

^It's extremely obvious anyway the ASOIAF genetics don't work the way our real world genetics do. Otherwise this whole thing with Robert's bastards would have been entirely different.

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

But I have to say it is fascinating. We have all regarded Targaryen incest in a bad light (with good reason due to the real world experiences and knowledge of incest), we never thought until now that Tarygaryen incest may not be bad, but even a requirement in the ASOIAF world. That mixture with other blood is what turns future Targ prodigy into misshapen monsters, not incest (which we associate with genetic abnormalities). What a way to upturn social outlooks George!

If we wanted to explain it in real-world genetics, we could argue that outbreeding resulted in the break-up of gene complexes where deleterious genes were balanced out by compensatory genes. When there was a return to inbreeding, deleterious genes were concentrated in some individuals without the necessary compensatory genes preventing their expression. Hence madness, congenital weakness and stillbirths.

Though note that the original Targaryen line may have already had incest-related health problems and a proclivity to madness - only Jaehaerys attained old age (Aegon I died of a stroke in his 40s), and Maegor the Cruel seems to have had a strong streak of paranoia.

[mrlopez]

In the real world, the more generations of incest that occurs, the more genetic defects that tend to come out. And it is not just with pure incest--any isolated group can have the same effect. Hemophilia by the British royals, Tay-Sachs Disease among Ashkenazi Jews, etc. The more isolated a gene pool, the more likely a recessive mutation will become prominent. So one case of a brother/sister marriage will not be as likely to result in genetic defects as multiple generations of such couplings.

This actually isn't completely true - recessive genes will eventually be completely bred out of any species (lab-mice for example) if brother/sister unions are adhered to over time. Of course there will be monstrous byproducts in the meantime.

With regard to the British royal family, the "inbred" nature of their genepool has been GREATLY exagerrated in the popular imagination. The haemophelia issue has nothing to do with inbreeding. Look at the Hapburgs - they were the most inbred royal family in European history & none of them ever managed to become haemopheliacs

[Avlonnic]

<snip>

So, I think Valyrians skinchanged into firewyrms and wyverns to mate them and produce offspring. So much dealing with these abominations took its toll on them.

Fascinating. I will continue to hope the author has something else up his sleeve with regard to incest/inbreeding.

[Avlonnic]

This actually isn't completely true - recessive genes will eventually be completely bred out of any species (lab-mice for example) if brother/sister unions are adhered to over time. Of course there will be monstrous byproducts in the meantime.

With regard to the British royal family, the "inbred" nature of their genepool has been GREATLY exagerrated in the popular imagination. The haemophelia issue has nothing to do with inbreeding. Look at the Hapburgs - they were the most inbred royal family in European history & none of them ever managed to become haemopheliacs

As I recall, the haemophelia in the British royal originated not with incest but with a spontaneous genetic mutation in a single queen. But it cascaded through the subsequent generations and marriages. The Hapburgs, on the other hand, should prove a cautionary tale on the dangers of inbreeding.

[Dragon's Daughter]

As I recall, the haemophelia in the British royal originated not with incest but with a spontaneous genetic mutation in a single queen. But it cascaded through the subsequent generations and marriages. The Hapburgs, on the other hand, should prove a cautionary tale on the dangers of inbreeding.

Yes, Queen Victoria. Haemophilia is also on the X chromosome, so it is unsurprising that a lot of male descendants of a woman who was a carrier had it. The odds of passing it on and its prominence was solely because of the fact it was a sex-linked disorder so her sons, grandsons, etc didn't need two copies of the messed up gene to get sick. I don't think any of her female descendants had the disorder (though obviously some were carriers).

[SFDanny]

As I recall, the haemophelia in the British royal originated not with incest but with a spontaneous genetic mutation in a single queen. But it cascaded through the subsequent generations and marriages. The Hapburgs, on the other hand, should prove a cautionary tale on the dangers of inbreeding.

? Incest doesn't cause hemophilia. Incest is a cultural taboo that varies in definition from culture to culture, and it certainly enhances the likelihood of traits in a restricted gene pool being passed on. It doesn't cause mutations. Restrict the gene pool too much, like what has happened in many royal lines, and if there is a trait present in that gene pool, good or bad, it is much more likely to be expressed.

[Mithras]

Targaryens infused reptile blood to themselves through blood magic to have better control on dragons. TWOIAF revealed lizard-men, winged men with bat wings, Brindled Men who have the blood of the brindled wyverns and so on. Valyrians carried out monstrous experiments by interbreeding slave women and beasts.