Requires only that you continue to read this thread: Benjanungate II

[Sci-2]

RH/Winterfox is most probably a horrible person and is certainly a horrible public persona. But had she been an up and coming author who did all these horrible things without having the public blog component this would already be over. I still maintain a huge amount of the outrage is coming form those who hated her blog, hated that she got away with being outrageous, and are absolutely thrilled she is getting her comeuppance. And she should, and if cyber bullying laws were a bit stronger she should most likely have even stronger punishments coming her way.

Yeah unless I missed something beyond ROH's commentary about Prince of Thorns Lawrence is definitely coming across as a faux-victim to me.

[peterbound]

Yeah unless I missed something beyond ROH's commentary about Prince of Thorns Lawrence is definitely coming across as a faux-victim to me.

She brought his kids (one of which is severely disabled) into the conversation. Not real cool.

Not cool. Even the mob doesn't fuck with civilians (too much sopranos apparently)

It's weird to me though that it has to be something that severe to constitute being a victim around here. Is it because he's a white westerner?

[Sci-2]

She brought his kids (one of which is severely disabled) into the conversation. Not real cool.

Not cool. Even the mob doesn't fuck with civilians (too much sopranos apparently)

All I saw was her saying that after reading about the rape queue in Prince of Thorns she hopes he doesn't have any daughters.

If there's something more specific about his kids, I haven't seen it.

[buff daddy]

But for a great many people the greater crime seems to be her writings, not her actions. Because that is what is being routinely condemned.

She used her writings on the internet as part of her whole bullying technique, I don't see why people should seperate them.

[Little Valkyrie]

Two posts from people involved in the 50books_poc thing are worth reading:

http://rachelmanija.livejournal.com/1161836.html

http://hesychasm.dreamwidth.org/266437.html

[kuenjato]

As a non-Thai fake-Asian, there are aspects of the wind-up girl that make me cringe. In a this-is-how-people-view-Asian-women way where IMO the author was a perpetrator not an observer or reporter. I've had many discussions with white male readers (not generally here on this forum) where I've been instantly dismissed.

I've been to Thailand a few times and PB's account felt rather fake from the first few pages (admittedly, all I read)--it reads like a Westerner tourist fresh-from-the-plane scrawling some exotica. Perhaps it gets better after, though from what I've read there are problematic developments.

Doesn't excuse RH one whit, but I (as a white American male) can see the issues of the WUG from the outset.

[Darth Richard II]

All I saw was her saying that after reading about the rape queue in Prince of Thorns she hopes he doesn't have any daughters.

If there's something more specific about his kids, I haven't seen it.

Yes well, problem A right there would be that she obviously didn't, you know, read the book.

[Darth Richard II]

Zorral thank you for saying it so much better than I have tried to.

In so many ways this should not be a fight. I have seen not one person condone RH's actions outside of her blog. Certainly not around here as it has been condemnations all around. And as Darth has pointed out several times that is what this is actually about. Years of harassment through various forums and social media.

Yet the discussion keeps coming back to the blog. Over and over. And because of what we know now we are tying people to her in any way possible (honestly people, Cat Valente's article from two years ago?) Her persona fooled so many but it is required now that everyone completely condemn her most public one- admit that absolutely no value can be found in her blog what so ever, that her vitriol couldn't possible ever lead to a discussion despite it sparking three threads on this very forum.

It has long ago left any kind of outrage for the victims of her harassment (and I can't be a hypocrite as that is almost always the case when it comes to social outrage). It is now about righting past wrongs, even those that were tucked safely into her blog. Look only at Mr Lawrence who re tweets link after link about her, insinuates one of our posters was a little too 'chummy' for his liking, and responds to a reddit discussion about her harassment history with review quotes that never left her blog.

RH/Winterfox is most probably a horrible person and is certainly a horrible public persona. But had she been an up and coming author who did all these horrible things without having the public blog component this would already be over. I still maintain a huge amount of the outrage is coming form those who hated her blog, hated that she got away with being outrageous, and are absolutely thrilled she is getting her comeuppance. And she should, and if cyber bullying laws were a bit stronger she should most likely have even stronger punishments coming her way.

But for a great many people the greater crime seems to be her writings, not her actions. Because that is what is being routinely condemned.

Yes, it keeps coming back to the blog. I honestly at this point could give two shits about it, it is, again, I point out, about the people harassed into quitting the industry/leaving the internet/attempting suicide. And you know, I was emphatically not a fan of said blog, and I'm sure there is a small, dark, evil part of me that is getting a kick out of all this, but for fucks sake, I know that that's wrong. When a celebrity we don't like gets in trouble there is always a small part of us thinking HOHOHO NOW HE/SHE IS GETTING WHAT THEY DESERVE but christ, think about the people who were the victims in all of this.

Fuck, I don't remember where i was even going with this post.

Random aside, Valente response as far as I know was to express horror at the whole thing and then link to Bear's blog post. So people drudging up that post from 2+ years ago should, I dunno, learn how linear time works.

[Galactus]

You were a big fan of hers, and now that she's been 'outed' as an out and out asshole, you seem to be changing your tune a little.

To be fair, Sci called her an asshole pretty early on, the question is whether or not she's an asshole with anything meaningful to say.

[peterbound]

Fair enough.

He post so much, some of his stuff gets lost in the shuffle.

[Darth Richard II]

I think the question is more Does the fact that she had something meaningful to say excuse her other bullshit?

The answer is: no.

[kuenjato]

Well Tor isn't going to talk about it for obvious reasons, not sure about SFF world but I could have swore I saw it mentioned on io9. Some more profession sites may be keeping quiet because from what I understand the uk police are involved, so it may be a legal matter.

Both Patrick and Teresa Hayden have made several comments on Mixon's post, and they are fairly high up the chain at Tor.

[Zorral]

I think the question is more Does the fact that she had something meaningful to say excuse her other bullshit?

As someone who hasn't ever had skin in this particular game: no participation, ignorant of the ten years or so of abusive behavior under several names, etc. -- it's easy for me to answer "No," to that question -- whether or not that that is the right response -- or even, if the question is the right one. I dunno.

But -- again, as someone who is an outsider, and who can have an informed historical perspective on most issues -- i.e. how much more privileged than that can one get in social matters? -- the question that most interests me personally, is what's going to happen to the professional sf writer nominated for the Campbell Award, BS/Bee -- is / are those two personas also going to be proven to be constructs as well? Will the nomination be withdrawn? Does this matter? Again, I dunno. Particularly as Bee is so perfectly another white western male fantasy stereotype of a young Asian woman, it too surely must be a construct, right?

Also, as you keep pointing out, and it seems pointing out to no avail, BS has not been doxxed, because, everyone now insists (unlike even a couple of weeks ago), that no one has ever met BS in person! And that's how / why this particular BS game continues to be played on the internet, probably? Because if these too are constructs BS-Bee cannot really be either punished or victimized as no one knows who or where s/he/they/ze is / are.

This is almost an sf tale itself, written by a young cyberpunk back in the day.

Except that more and more people are confessing to being hurt and abused and terrified still of this person to the point of weeping, afraid to go out and unable to write -- and these are people, not constructs, people that other non-constructs know.

[Darth Richard II]

Yeah as far as I know know one knows who BS/RH actually is/are. As for is the BS persona is fake, well, looking at her history, one almost has to assume so, other wise there is some seriously weird shit going on that I won't even speculate on more.

kuenjato, yes, but I meant publicly at their web site.

As regards to Mark Lawrence, anything she said about/to him has probably been deleted by her at this point, so I think its useless to speculate. He says she brought his kids into it, and I have no reason to not believe him.

And yes, the doxing thing is getting to me. I've had a friend get doxed, and get verbally assaulted by someone outside his place of work over a website. This is not doxing. Look up what happened to Felecia day about a week or two ago. That's doxing.

[Shryke]

Zorral thank you for saying it so much better than I have tried to.

In so many ways this should not be a fight. I have seen not one person condone RH's actions outside of her blog. Certainly not around here as it has been condemnations all around. And as Darth has pointed out several times that is what this is actually about. Years of harassment through various forums and social media.

Yet the discussion keeps coming back to the blog. Over and over. And because of what we know now we are tying people to her in any way possible (honestly people, Cat Valente's article from two years ago?) Her persona fooled so many but it is required now that everyone completely condemn her most public one- admit that absolutely no value can be found in her blog what so ever, that her vitriol couldn't possible ever lead to a discussion despite it sparking three threads on this very forum.

It has long ago left any kind of outrage for the victims of her harassment (and I can't be a hypocrite as that is almost always the case when it comes to social outrage). It is now about righting past wrongs, even those that were tucked safely into her blog. Look only at Mr Lawrence who re tweets link after link about her, insinuates one of our posters was a little too 'chummy' for his liking, and responds to a reddit discussion about her harassment history with review quotes that never left her blog.

RH/Winterfox is most probably a horrible person and is certainly a horrible public persona. But had she been an up and coming author who did all these horrible things without having the public blog component this would already be over. I still maintain a huge amount of the outrage is coming form those who hated her blog, hated that she got away with being outrageous, and are absolutely thrilled she is getting her comeuppance. And she should, and if cyber bullying laws were a bit stronger she should most likely have even stronger punishments coming her way.

But for a great many people the greater crime seems to be her writings, not her actions. Because that is what is being routinely condemned.

Probably because the intent behind her writing and the interpretation of the content therein gains some serious new dimensions in light of the type of person it would seem she is and the type of behaviour she seems addicted to engaging in.

If you write a blog about how much you hate Book X by Author Y, maybe you are just engaging in some very aggressive criticism. When it turns out you have also been spending years harassing Author Y, many people begin wondering if your blog was actually about criticism or was it just another place where you got to spew your vitriol at the people you've decided to target.

[MacPeach]

Zorral thank you for saying it so much better than I have tried to.

In so many ways this should not be a fight. I have seen not one person condone RH's actions outside of her blog. Certainly not around here as it has been condemnations all around. And as Darth has pointed out several times that is what this is actually about. Years of harassment through various forums and social media.

Yet the discussion keeps coming back to the blog. Over and over. And because of what we know now we are tying people to her in any way possible (honestly people, Cat Valente's article from two years ago?) Her persona fooled so many but it is required now that everyone completely condemn her most public one- admit that absolutely no value can be found in her blog what so ever, that her vitriol couldn't possible ever lead to a discussion despite it sparking three threads on this very forum.

It has long ago left any kind of outrage for the victims of her harassment (and I can't be a hypocrite as that is almost always the case when it comes to social outrage). It is now about righting past wrongs, even those that were tucked safely into her blog. Look only at Mr Lawrence who re tweets link after link about her, insinuates one of our posters was a little too 'chummy' for his liking, and responds to a reddit discussion about her harassment history with review quotes that never left her blog.

RH/Winterfox is most probably a horrible person and is certainly a horrible public persona. But had she been an up and coming author who did all these horrible things without having the public blog component this would already be over. I still maintain a huge amount of the outrage is coming form those who hated her blog, hated that she got away with being outrageous, and are absolutely thrilled she is getting her comeuppance. And she should, and if cyber bullying laws were a bit stronger she should most likely have even stronger punishments coming her way.

But for a great many people the greater crime seems to be her writings, not her actions. Because that is what is being routinely condemned.

Honestly Skyn, in general I respect your opinion but methinks you protest too much.

You're right that it might be over if there hadn't been a blog. You don't mean dismissed though, I trust? Granted, if there hadn't been a blog and people she'd confided in, she might not have been found out. There's that. But. If there hadn't been a blog and she'd gone on to some renown, and somehow someone still put two and two together, re: her actions outside of the blog-- do you honestly believe there'd be no backlash for the things she's allegedly done? Cause if you're suggesting that, all I could possibly say is you got to be fucking kidding me. I mean, maybe I've been reading these threads unconsciously selective. And the blog posts cited, both for and against. But, I'm not seeing this outrage against the blog vs. her actions you're talking about, not the way you are, anyway.

Never read her blog.

There are definitely some personalities whose expressions I'd like to see regarding BS' behavior, in reflection, especially during the witnessing of this slow social swing toward what will be tolerated and away from what isn't-- and, if I'm reading it right, these 'new rules' will go both ways whether you're the proverbial White Knight/Social Justice/Good Guy or the Trademarked/Darklord/Bad Guy.

Between gamergate and this, there's something really interesting going on. To me.

edited for clarity

[Darth Richard II]

Eh, I thought sky was saying that if it wasn't for the blog she would have been dismissed as a horrible person and cast adrift already, as most of her defenders like to focus on said blog. But I'll let him clarify.

[Arthmail]

I know what doxxing is. I know she wasn't doxxed because the BS persona is likely a complete fabrication.

I'm saying I have no problem with doxxing of serial abusers. There was that asshole on Reddit that was very publically doxxed, and if we were to find out BS's real name, then I wouldn't honestly care either. Regular internet folk, who might even be assholes and rude and jerks, no way there should be doxxing. Raging dick heads that support hate and the ruining of others careers or are into sick shit like pictures of dead women, I'm less inclined to care. That was what I was trying to say.

The problem with her blog was that it was part of her abuse pattern. And honestly, if she went after Mark Lawrences children, disabled or not, then maybe he has a right to be pissed and to go after her. Or is he not allowed to be pissed about that because...?

I could be completely off base here, and correct me if I'm wrong, but there seems to be a shrug of the shoulders by some here that because a white dude has been offended, or a westerner, its not as important as if the person was non-western and or foreign. As if being privileged in some way makes people immune to internet assholes. Bill Burr has a really good bit about that, that when it comes to violence against men we collectively shrug and or think its funny. A guy can get his dick cut off and thrown in a trash compactor and its funny, but a guy cuts a girls boob off and throws it in a drier and its not. Statistically one is far more likely to happen than the other, but it doesn't make the unlikely one any less horrifying.

[Arthmail]

And she had good points on her blog. I read a number of her posts, looking for the nuggets amongst the vitriol. So it wasn't all bad. Just mostly, and then all of the other stuff boils away whatever small bit of good there was and leaves us with what remains.

[Galleymac]

So much of what you have to say is awesome, Zorral, but:

I dunno. It does seem to me that in the typical USian manner, this blow up has quickly turned into the typical USian binary

Please don't do this. There are so, so many other not-remotely-USian nationalities of people involved in this (not to mention U.S. minorities, immigrants, and First Nations) many of whom are speaking, some of whom are really hurting. This erases them.